931 réponses à ce sujet

[crimzontearz]

no one seems to have any issues suspending their disbelief enough to accept that memories are stored genetically like in the fictional universe of  Assassin's Creed and can therefore be re-lived generations down the line by using a machin that "reads" them for you from your DNA

yet....Cerberus managing to reconstruct the memories of a dead man several hundreds of years in the future  using also technology from races that  achieved interstellar space travel THOUSANDS of years ago is too much?

come on...

[Onyx Jaguar]

How do we know that they reconstructed the memories. Greyboxes hang around...

[crimzontearz]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

How do we know that they reconstructed the memories. Greyboxes hang around...

not the point of my post....

[Onyx Jaguar]

I just want to see if there is definite indication that Shepard in ME 2 has realistic implementation of prior memories or if they are just skims so to speak

[crimzontearz]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

I just want to see if there is definite indication that Shepard in ME 2 has realistic implementation of prior memories or if they are just skims so to speak

as I said....people have no issues with AC's fiction and accept it as part of the Sci Fi mumbo Jumbo...so why not full recontructed memories in ME2?

[pvt_java]

Allright, I'm going to have to pop in here and tell everyone to stop making the "Oh, it's Science FICTION, so shut up."

Please, you are simply embarressing your selves. Let's look up the definition of "Science Fiction". We shall start with Wikipedia.

Wikipedia says...

Science fiction is a genre of fiction dealing with the impact of imagined innovations in science or technology.[1][2][3] It differs from fantasy in that, within the context of the story, its imaginary elements are largely possible within scientifically established or scientifically postulated laws of nature (though some elements in a story might still be pure imaginative speculation).

If we follow this, and assume Mass Effect is a Sci-Fi video game as advertised, then bringing back Shepard from the dead is a clear departure the the science fiction genre. Although that last bit may make some of you say "well some elements can still be imaginative and stuff!!", I redirect you to the last word. Speculation. Speculation in the context of science fiction is speculation on future technology. And, I'm sorry to tell you, we will never have the ability to bring back people who have been dead for more than about 5 minutes. As the brain looses oxxygen, you essentially become a vegetable. This is why loosing oxygen for large amounts of time causes brain damage - it's simply impossible to completely bring back someone who has been dead for that long. I think what people who are making the "Science FICTION" arguement are thinking about is called science fantasty.

Though the comic brings light to this - it sounds like Shepard is in a comatose state to me.

[Il Divo]

pvt_java wrote...

Science fiction is a genre of fiction dealing with the impact of imagined innovations in science or technology.[1][2][3] It differs from fantasy in that, within the context of the story, its imaginary elements are largely possible within scientifically established or scientifically postulated laws of nature (though some elements in a story might still be pure imaginative speculation).

So are elements capable of altering mass, light speed, and giant sentient plants covered by the laws of nature?

Modifié par Il Divo, 25 juillet 2010 - 04:30 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

This is why loosing oxygen for large amounts of time causes brain damage - it's simply impossible to completely bring back someone who has been dead for that long.

Its not simply impossible, Organics aren't that different from machines in how they work. Down the line it is not implausible that you could jumpstart a system or replicate dead tissue and replace that tissue. In this case a brain. We're not that special.

[smudboy]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

This is why loosing oxygen for large amounts of time causes brain damage - it's simply impossible to completely bring back someone who has been dead for that long.

Its not simply impossible, Organics aren't that different from machines in how they work. Down the line it is not implausible that you could jumpstart a system or replicate dead tissue and replace that tissue. In this case a brain. We're not that special.

The brain is a whole other story.  In fact I'd go so far as if they said say "the brain was preserved", and I could buy the rest, minus a few errors and a little bit more exposition.

[crimzontearz]

pvt_java wrote...

Allright, I'm going to have to pop in here and tell everyone to stop making the "Oh, it's Science FICTION, so shut up."

Please, you are simply embarressing your selves. Let's look up the definition of "Science Fiction". We shall start with Wikipedia.

Wikipedia says...

Science fiction is a genre of fiction dealing with the impact of imagined innovations in science or technology.[1][2][3] It differs from fantasy in that, within the context of the story, its imaginary elements are largely possible within scientifically established or scientifically postulated laws of nature (though some elements in a story might still be pure imaginative speculation).

If we follow this, and assume Mass Effect is a Sci-Fi video game as advertised, then bringing back Shepard from the dead is a clear departure the the science fiction genre. Although that last bit may make some of you say "well some elements can still be imaginative and stuff!!", I redirect you to the last word. Speculation. Speculation in the context of science fiction is speculation on future technology. And, I'm sorry to tell you, we will never have the ability to bring back people who have been dead for more than about 5 minutes. As the brain looses oxxygen, you essentially become a vegetable. This is why loosing oxygen for large amounts of time causes brain damage - it's simply impossible to completely bring back someone who has been dead for that long. I think what people who are making the "Science FICTION" arguement are thinking about is called science fantasty.

Though the comic brings light to this - it sounds like Shepard is in a comatose state to me.

500 years ago it was simply impossible to transplant a heart

500 years ago it was simply impossible to create vaccines

500 years ago it was simply impossible to reattach a lost body part successfully

you have no idea what discoveries will completely revolutionize what we perceive as "possible"

[Raxxman]

Mass Effect is largely Science Fantasy anyhow.

[jklinders]

Ahem, I am going to try this again. Shepard being dead and reserrected does not fit the narrative very well. There is precisely 0 charachters in the game that actually behave like you came back from the dead. This is unheard of technology that had achieved a previously unheard of result and eveyone is so blase about it, it just feels wrong to me. Ashley/Kaiden does not act like you came back from the dead. They act like you banged them and then didn't return their phone calls. They don't even seem to hear you when you say you were out like a light for 2 years.
Then we have Captain Bailey in the Citadel. This guy should be fired. If you go to the Citadel with -I can't remember if it is Garrus or Thane, but one of them says thet there is plenty of security holes in the Citadel. WHen the scanner shows that you are a dead spectre he reactivates yourt IDs without even thinking that someone hacked the machine, or it was malfunctioning. Yeah folks real realistic reaction there.

There are a couple more examples sprinkled in there here and there. Like Garrus and Tali not even batting an eye at your return. What am I saying in all this? Simple. The game universe does not react in a way according to the circumstances of Shepard's return. Frankly they all act like he never died. SO why not go whole hog and say he was really badly busted up and in a coma and not dead? It's how the bloody universe reacts, it is more reasonable and realistic, so why not? Why are we defending the idea of reserection so strongly?

[crimzontearz]

jklinders wrote...

Ahem, I am going to try this again. Shepard being dead and reserrected does not fit the narrative very well. There is precisely 0 charachters in the game that actually behave like you came back from the dead. This is unheard of technology that had achieved a previously unheard of result and eveyone is so blase about it, it just feels wrong to me. Ashley/Kaiden does not act like you came back from the dead. They act like you banged them and then didn't return their phone calls. They don't even seem to hear you when you say you were out like a light for 2 years.
Then we have Captain Bailey in the Citadel. This guy should be fired. If you go to the Citadel with -I can't remember if it is Garrus or Thane, but one of them says thet there is plenty of security holes in the Citadel. WHen the scanner shows that you are a dead spectre he reactivates yourt IDs without even thinking that someone hacked the machine, or it was malfunctioning. Yeah folks real realistic reaction there.

There are a couple more examples sprinkled in there here and there. Like Garrus and Tali not even batting an eye at your return. What am I saying in all this? Simple. The game universe does not react in a way according to the circumstances of Shepard's return. Frankly they all act like he never died. SO why not go whole hog and say he was really badly busted up and in a coma and not dead? It's how the bloody universe reacts, it is more reasonable and realistic, so why not? Why are we defending the idea of reserection so strongly?

I'm not, I'm just saying people should stop poking holes at it because the whole thing was born with more holes than a form of Gruviera cheese. There is no sense in trying to "disprove" he was resurrected with technology because, well, this is a sci fi game and by the third game Bioware might come up with a 120 paragraphs explanation given to you at high speed by Mordin.

Bioware royally screwed up with this, hopefully they realize it but they will never come clean about it so everyone should just move on

Modifié par crimzontearz, 25 juillet 2010 - 02:40 .

[Cucobr]

hmmm... bring back my 2 minutes of life that I wast here!

[pvt_java]

Il Divo wrote...

pvt_java wrote...

Science fiction is a genre of fiction dealing with the impact of imagined innovations in science or technology.[1][2][3] It differs from fantasy in that, within the context of the story, its imaginary elements are largely possible within scientifically established or scientifically postulated laws of nature (though some elements in a story might still be pure imaginative speculation).

So are elements capable of altering mass, light speed, and giant sentient plants covered by the laws of nature?

Sort of kind of. Altering Mass could probably be achieved and I'm not one of the people who goes around saying that we've discovered everything we're going to discover regarding the laws of physics. ME already gave viable explanations for these issues, or at least believable ones. Also Giant Sentient Plants can happen just with natural evolution.

crimzontearz wrote...

pvt_java wrote...

Allright, I'm going to have to pop in here and tell everyone to stop making the "Oh, it's Science FICTION, so shut up."

Please, you are simply embarressing your selves. Let's look up the definition of "Science Fiction". We shall start with Wikipedia.

Wikipedia says...

Science fiction is a genre of fiction dealing with the impact of imagined innovations in science or technology.[1][2][3] It differs from fantasy in that, within the context of the story, its imaginary elements are largely possible within scientifically established or scientifically postulated laws of nature (though some elements in a story might still be pure imaginative speculation).

If we follow this, and assume Mass Effect is a Sci-Fi video game as advertised, then bringing back Shepard from the dead is a clear departure the the science fiction genre. Although that last bit may make some of you say "well some elements can still be imaginative and stuff!!", I redirect you to the last word. Speculation. Speculation in the context of science fiction is speculation on future technology. And, I'm sorry to tell you, we will never have the ability to bring back people who have been dead for more than about 5 minutes. As the brain looses oxxygen, you essentially become a vegetable. This is why loosing oxygen for large amounts of time causes brain damage - it's simply impossible to completely bring back someone who has been dead for that long. I think what people who are making the "Science FICTION" arguement are thinking about is called science fantasty.

Though the comic brings light to this - it sounds like Shepard is in a comatose state to me.

500 years ago it was simply impossible to transplant a heart

500 years ago it was simply impossible to create vaccines

500 years ago it was simply impossible to reattach a lost body part successfully

you have no idea what discoveries will completely revolutionize what we perceive as "possible"

And the game takes place 150 years from now, within my great grandsons/daughters lifetime.

Nice try.

Anyway, look up the laws of nature. And go take a high-school level physics class for that matter. It's easier to tell everyone that Shepard was cloned, rather than brought back to life, because all your going to find where his body hit is a few skin cells melted his burned out suit.

I can't predict the future, but I can make a pretty solid guess that we won't have the ability to regenerate people's brains without a sinch for quite some time. It would have been a lot more believable if it had been somewhat difficult for Shepard to recover from this. He hasn't properly eaten or even moved in two years - shouldn't he have some kind of damage other than "My eyes hurt a little."?

smudboy wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

This is why loosing oxygen for large amounts of time causes brain
damage - it's simply impossible to completely bring back someone who has
been dead for that long.

Its not simply impossible,
Organics aren't that different from machines in how they work. Down
the line it is not implausible that you could jumpstart a system or
replicate dead tissue and replace that tissue. In this case a brain.
We're not that special.

The brain is a whole other story. 
In fact I'd go so far as if they said say "the brain was preserved",
and I could buy the rest, minus a few errors and a little bit more
exposition.

This is possible, perhaps Shepard's helmet could have preserved his brain long enough for his brain to be properly preserved?

Also Onyx, regenerating the brain and all it's memories and factors is very, very, very, very difficult to do. It's probably impossible, really.

[jklinders]

crimzontearz wrote...

jklinders wrote...

Ahem, I am going to try this again. Shepard being dead and reserrected does not fit the narrative very well. There is precisely 0 charachters in the game that actually behave like you came back from the dead. This is unheard of technology that had achieved a previously unheard of result and eveyone is so blase about it, it just feels wrong to me. Ashley/Kaiden does not act like you came back from the dead. They act like you banged them and then didn't return their phone calls. They don't even seem to hear you when you say you were out like a light for 2 years.
Then we have Captain Bailey in the Citadel. This guy should be fired. If you go to the Citadel with -I can't remember if it is Garrus or Thane, but one of them says thet there is plenty of security holes in the Citadel. WHen the scanner shows that you are a dead spectre he reactivates yourt IDs without even thinking that someone hacked the machine, or it was malfunctioning. Yeah folks real realistic reaction there.

There are a couple more examples sprinkled in there here and there. Like Garrus and Tali not even batting an eye at your return. What am I saying in all this? Simple. The game universe does not react in a way according to the circumstances of Shepard's return. Frankly they all act like he never died. SO why not go whole hog and say he was really badly busted up and in a coma and not dead? It's how the bloody universe reacts, it is more reasonable and realistic, so why not? Why are we defending the idea of reserection so strongly?

I'm not, I'm just saying people should stop poking holes at it because the whole thing was born with more holes than a form of Gruviera cheese. There is no sense in trying to "disprove" he was resurrected with technology because, well, this is a sci fi game and by the third game Bioware might come up with a 120 paragraphs explanation given to you at high speed by Mordin.

Bioware royally screwed up with this, hopefully they realize it but they will never come clean about it so everyone should just move on

Acceptance of mediocrity will always result in poorly written rushed future products. Dragon Age 2 is looking more and more like shovelware with each new piece of news. If Bioware is not made aware that some of their fanbase is noticing this their quality will continue to decline. I will move on only when I have fully lost hope in their writing. In the meantime I will ask for in the future what I have seen in the past. Good writing. ME2 was good writing except for this.

Can you not see that the only reason some of us see a reason to post is because there is some hope that they will see this and realise that it is a symptom of declining quality. It is not so much a plot hole as it is ****** poor writing. I think it is better to let a vendor know in what way they are screwing up before denying them business in the future.

[darkranger23]

 I don't often post here (though I've been reading the forums since a little before KoToR) but I feel the need to post on this topic.

My point, the laws of physics and the rules of nature (and all science, when you get down to it) is based on what we have observed.

What I mean is, people place boundaries on what is possible or achievable based on what they, as an individual, have observed.  Have you (and I mean any individual stating with naive certainty that medical resurrection is impossible) observed even half of what technology we have now, let alone what we could have 150 years from now?  I doubt it.

One example:

Within the last two years, a doctor, using a specific set of powdered cells, regrew a man's finger.  We're talking bone, muscle, veins, skin, and nail, using a single type of specific cell.  We have achieved this.  Who is to say what we are capable of, regardless of challenge, complexity, difficulty, or impossibility.

If there is something you believe impossible, or are unwilling to open your mind to, you will never learn the truth.  And the truth is, all things are possible until proven impossible.  Not the other way around.

Keep an open mind, and remember, there's always someone that knows more than you, and that means, someone who has observed more; someone with wider boundaries.  They live in a world bigger and more miraculous than your own.

[BlackyBlack]

What on earth makes you think Shepard ever got anywhere near a planet ?

[smudboy]

darkranger23 wrote...

 I don't often post here (though I've been reading the forums since a little before KoToR) but I feel the need to post on this topic.

My point, the laws of physics and the rules of nature (and all science, when you get down to it) is based on what we have observed.

What I mean is, people place boundaries on what is possible or achievable based on what they, as an individual, have observed.  Have you (and I mean any individual stating with naive certainty that medical resurrection is impossible) observed even half of what technology we have now, let alone what we could have 150 years from now?  I doubt it.

One example:

Within the last two years, a doctor, using a specific set of powdered cells, regrew a man's finger.  We're talking bone, muscle, veins, skin, and nail, using a single type of specific cell.  We have achieved this.  Who is to say what we are capable of, regardless of challenge, complexity, difficulty, or impossibility.

If there is something you believe impossible, or are unwilling to open your mind to, you will never learn the truth.  And the truth is, all things are possible until proven impossible.  Not the other way around.

Keep an open mind, and remember, there's always someone that knows more than you, and that means, someone who has observed more; someone with wider boundaries.  They live in a world bigger and more miraculous than your own.

Restoring a man back to perfect working order after his brain has frozen and died for an unknown period of time needs to be explained.  There was no explanation, thus, we don't believe it.  We're not disbelieving that it's impossible, it merely wasn't exaplined or shown as to how.  There are a large amount of ways to do this, and none were chosen.

This has to take into account 1) the extreme causes of their death, 2) an unknown preservation, 3) an unknown resurrection.  That's a lot of ground to cover.  But sci-fi and storytelling have quite a few methods of making crazy things happen like resurrection.  ME2 choose not to even bother.

[smudboy]

BlackyBlack wrote...

What on earth makes you think Shepard ever got anywhere near a planet ?

The cutscene where they're hurtling toward Alchera.

Their armor and helmet found on the crash site.

[Pacifien]

smudboy wrote...
The cutscene where they're hurtling toward Alchera.

Their armor and helmet found on the crash site.

That crash site annoyed me more than any hint of Shepard entering the atmosphere.

But seriously, it's not getting retconned.

[crimzontearz]

hum....why do people forget that humanity came into contact with species that achieved interstellar travel THOUSANDS of years ago...whose technology is fare greater than anything we will have in the next 200 years? Who is to saythat, being apparently the most innovative and mercurial specie, humans have not used what already discovered by other species (asari, salarian, volus, turians, quarians) and achieved the tech necessary for the Lazarus Project?...just saying



again a Key element is that "no one can predict the future"...indeed no one could have predicted someone would have discovered Prothean ruins on Mars which jump started our tech several hundreds of years so why are people so hellbent on disproving the Lazarus project.



I get it, it was lazy, it was a poor excuse and Bioware should know it but they will NEVER admitt it so....this is getting a little ridiculous is it not?



Also I understand that with no criticism there is no improvement.....but remember Bioware does not take it always that well

[Pacifien]

crimzontearz wrote...
Also I understand that with no criticism there is no improvement.....but remember Bioware does not take it always that well

There's critique and then there's criticism. One will be taken into consideration. The other will be ignored.

[Il Divo]

pvt_java wrote...
Sort of kind of. Altering Mass could probably be achieved and I'm not one of the people who goes around saying that we've discovered everything we're going to discover regarding the laws of physics. ME already gave viable explanations for these issues, or at least believable ones. Also Giant Sentient Plants can happen just with natural evolution.

From what I know, light speed is something that's been definitively tossed out as a scientific possibility. Nothing I know of evolution in this universe or Mass Effect tells me that giant talking plants are possible either. Nor sound in space. The way I see it, I've already allowed my suspension of disbelief to accept space magic, the Thorian, Indoctrination, FTL, the Prothean beacon,  and telepathic space bugs. At this point, resurrection isn't that far a stretch for me.

I can't predict the future, but I can make a pretty solid guess that we won't have the ability to regenerate people's brains without a sinch for quite some time. It would have been a lot more believable if it had been somewhat difficult for Shepard to recover from this. He hasn't properly eaten or even moved in two years - shouldn't he have some kind of damage other than "My eyes hurt a little."?

But I think the bolded hits the exact problem with calling Mass Effect "science fiction". I also can't predict the future, but I doubt it will involve anything I've seen in Mass Effect. Personally, when I think of science fiction, I ask myself "Excluding some minor details, can I see this happening in 150 years, or however long?" I don't see light speed, mass-altering elements, and giant talking plants anywhere in the distant future. I think Deus Ex even is closer to a forseeable future.

If you approach with anything resembling what we know of science, Mass Effect 1 and 2 both fail.  Mass Effect is pseudo-Star Wars. If we encountered alien life, I don't expect them to be anything close to how humans think. I am playing Commander Shepard who for the first time is encountering the Citadel and these vastly different species. The fact that I was so easily able to relate to and understand Turians, Asari, etc. tells me already that suspension of disbelief has been broken.

Modifié par Il Divo, 25 juillet 2010 - 05:35 .