931 réponses à ce sujet

[Thesuperdevil]

This problem could be quite succinctly solved in the form of DLC. I too am perturbed by the lack of explanations of Shepard's resurrection, but Bioware will never resort to such drastic measures at retconning; we ALL know that.



We know that the Lazarus Facility was destroyed remotely soon after Shepard's escape, and so a "revisit" scenario is not possible. Perhaps Shepard could salvage a memory core of sorts that somehow escaped destruction from the debris field or even on the surface of a nearby moon, that could at least shed some light on the mechanics of his resurrection. Such a memory core would understandably attract a lot of attention from other organizations than Cerberus, and so a mission could be designed around it, where TiM calls on Shepard to retrieve the core and defend it against some sort of OpFor that are trying to capture it. After the mission, Shepard has the option of simply handing over the data to TiM, or perhaps use EDI to create a copy of the data for immidiate review, or review after a few mission and THEN handing over the data to TiM, or maybe even the Alliance (taking examples from that mission involving the dead Cerberus operative).



Hell, it could be as simple as an added conversation path with EDI or even Miranda. There are many possibilities, but retconning isn't one of them.

[smudboy]

Spornicus wrote...
You're arguing that something that takes place in the future is impossible. You're an idiot.

I need to stop looking at this thread, it's destroying my sanity.

Or, you can try disproving my argument.  But then you'd have to actuall use your brain.

I don't know.  I'm kind thinking you're the idiot in this case.  But I forgive you.

(Wait, no I don't.)

[Whatever42]

I think people are doing a decent job on here voicing their opinion. I can rightfully say ME2 doesn't make me want to bust out my keyboard for some good ol sci-fi short story writing.

I'm not into fan-fic. Any fiction will do. It's easy to criticize, harder to do. Especially your brand of criticizing. Frankly, anything can be mocked. For example, LotR is crap. I can beat on it all day its such bad writing. Ok, millions love the novels but the story and plot are garbage. Actually, the large majority of novels ever written are pretty damn bad and easily denounced.



Any television show and almost any movie has truly awful writing. Again, easy targets. A visual medium almost requires short-hands in the writing, unless its a slow plodding drama.



Of course, most writers aren't trying to be perfect. They have things that are important to them (for example, Tolkien was all about describing his world) and things that aren't. It's easy to troll and mock things. Debating you is pointless because taste and opinion cannot be debated.



However, I'm fine that you hate the writing. I think its quite good for the most part. I do empathize with you, though. It's hard being a small minority, decrying the poor taste of the majority. But take comfort in your superiority. I do regard you as a troll so I'm not going to get into a back-and-forth with you, so you get the last shot, if you feel you need to reply.

[smudboy]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
I'm not into fan-fic. Any fiction will do. It's easy to criticize, harder to do. Especially your brand of criticizing. Frankly, anything can be mocked. For example, LotR is crap. I can beat on it all day its such bad writing. Ok, millions love the novels but the story and plot are garbage. Actually, the large majority of novels ever written are pretty damn bad and easily denounced.

Luckily I know how to write, have written sci-fi, had said sci-fi published, and know what I'm talking about.

If it makes you feel any better, I couldn't get past the 3rd LotR book.  Just, so...boring.

Any television show and almost any movie has truly awful writing. Again, easy targets. A visual medium almost requires short-hands in the writing, unless its a slow plodding drama.

Babylon 5 does not have truly awful writing.  Quite the contrary.  In fact I can point to some low budget sci-fi series that were pretty decent.

Of course, most writers aren't trying to be perfect. They have things that are important to them (for example, Tolkien was all about describing his world) and things that aren't. It's easy to troll and mock things. Debating you is pointless because taste and opinion cannot be debated.

I personally think writing was an afterthought.  That is, the level designers, art directors and producer called the shots, and the writers were called in for dialog.  They didn't have too much bearing in the conception of entire scenes.

However, I'm fine that you hate the writing. I think its quite good for the most part. I do empathize with you, though. It's hard being a small minority, decrying the poor taste of the majority. But take comfort in your superiority. I do regard you as a troll so I'm not going to get into a back-and-forth with you, so you get the last shot, if you feel you need to reply.

Why would I hate the writing?  This is something different.  I find the storytelling lacking and unclear in almost every area.  The plot is so ridiculous and flawed I just dismiss it.  The writing that is there is decent, and the ideas are fine.  It's how they're presented, and how the other writing isn't connected, because I think the writers were in the backseat the entire time.

I don't see myself as a troll, just really good at replying.

My goodness.  You people think we hate the game or something.

[MadInfiltrator]

smudboy wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
I'm not into fan-fic. Any fiction will do. It's easy to criticize, harder to do. Especially your brand of criticizing. Frankly, anything can be mocked. For example, LotR is crap. I can beat on it all day its such bad writing. Ok, millions love the novels but the story and plot are garbage. Actually, the large majority of novels ever written are pretty damn bad and easily denounced.

Luckily I know how to write, have written sci-fi, had said sci-fi published, and know what I'm talking about.

If it makes you feel any better, I couldn't get past the 3rd LotR book.  Just, so...boring.

Any television show and almost any movie has truly awful writing. Again, easy targets. A visual medium almost requires short-hands in the writing, unless its a slow plodding drama.

Babylon 5 does not have truly awful writing.  Quite the contrary.  In fact I can point to some low budget sci-fi series that were pretty decent.

Of course, most writers aren't trying to be perfect. They have things that are important to them (for example, Tolkien was all about describing his world) and things that aren't. It's easy to troll and mock things. Debating you is pointless because taste and opinion cannot be debated.

I personally think writing was an afterthought.  That is, the level designers, art directors and producer called the shots, and the writers were called in for dialog.  They didn't have too much bearing in the conception of entire scenes.

However, I'm fine that you hate the writing. I think its quite good for the most part. I do empathize with you, though. It's hard being a small minority, decrying the poor taste of the majority. But take comfort in your superiority. I do regard you as a troll so I'm not going to get into a back-and-forth with you, so you get the last shot, if you feel you need to reply.

Why would I hate the writing?  This is something different.  I find the storytelling lacking and unclear in almost every area.  The plot is so ridiculous and flawed I just dismiss it.  The writing that is there is decent, and the ideas are fine.  It's how they're presented, and how the other writing isn't connected, because I think the writers were in the backseat the entire time.

I don't see myself as a troll, just really good at replying.

My goodness.  You people think we hate the game or something.

What have you had published?

[Mecha Tengu]

Mesina2 wrote...

Teknor wrote...

Oh god, another person with inability to suspend disbelief.

^
l
This.




Did anyone complained in Star Wars that how is possible that Death Star can destroy planets?


No, so shut up.

DUR DUR DUR STAR WARS IsH SO UNREALISTIC  /nerd rage

HOW ****** THER IS SOUND IN SPACE WTF
HOW CAN THAR BE SWORDSMADEOF ENERGY WTF DEFY LAWS OF CONVERSATION OF ENERGY AND MASS
HOW ****** THERE IS SO BIG STARSHIPS WTF HAPPENED TO GRAVITATIONAL PULL AND TORQUE

[Thesuperdevil]

I realize the primary goal of the internet forum is to support discussion, but does it have to be this sort of nasty back-and-forth arguing that is little better than treading water in a pool full of sharks? Do not get me wrong; I am a stickler for civil discussion, but it gets to the point when disucssion no longer gets us anywhere. Why not instead think of potential solutions to the writing problem? Even the most cynical of people (myself included) can agree that at least a few Bioware employees with some influence read the forums on a relatively regular basis, and maybe one or two this thread. We may have no impact or a little impact; the specifics of the developer-gamer relationship with respect to Bioware are not known to me. But having something down is better than nothing at all, or in this case, pages of vitriol-soaked "discussion", with a few glimpses of civil discussion peeking out.



Nonetheless I expect to be ignored. Such is the nature of the internet forum I guess.

[Whatever42]

Ok, I lied about not replying because you brought up Babylon 5. I do love the writing in in that series but I find it funny that you selected a series where Sheridan was brought back from the dead by the first one through almost supernatural means by the first one. NOTE: I'm not claiming the situation was parallel to Shepard - I know the first one was hyper advanced. Although, I never really understand how saving Sheridan required his 'life force'. Its a pretty mystical explanation - although the series did get mystical at times. 

And while I love Straczynski and think that he wrote a very good story and built a very deep, fascinating universe, I could still hack on his writing.

Specifically, his dialogue was often stilted and melodramatic. And I don't think his characters were well written. I found the romance between Sheridan and Delenn almost painful it was so awkward. I tend to fast forward to the next Londo scene because I know he'll be hatching something amusing.

That said, I did find the plot and story excellent, I can see why you would hold that up as an example.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 27 juillet 2010 - 01:33 .

[wulf3n]

MadInfiltrator wrote...
What have you had published?

Seconded. C'mon smud tell us the name of your book, we may have already read it.

[Il Divo]

Thesuperdevil wrote...

I realize the primary goal of the internet forum is to support discussion, but does it have to be this sort of nasty back-and-forth arguing that is little better than treading water in a pool full of sharks? Do not get me wrong; I am a stickler for civil discussion, but it gets to the point when disucssion no longer gets us anywhere. Why not instead think of potential solutions to the writing problem? Even the most cynical of people (myself included) can agree that at least a few Bioware employees with some influence read the forums on a relatively regular basis, and maybe one or two this thread. We may have no impact or a little impact; the specifics of the developer-gamer relationship with respect to Bioware are not known to me. But having something down is better than nothing at all, or in this case, pages of vitriol-soaked "discussion", with a few glimpses of civil discussion peeking out.

Nonetheless I expect to be ignored. Such is the nature of the internet forum I guess.

To be fair, the Elder Scrolls forums were no different when Oblivion came out; people were arguing left and right whether it was better or even as good as Morrowind. What's interesting is that Mass Effect 2 forum-wise has followed the exact same trend. Threads popped up left and right saying it was dumbed down, or much more enjoyable, etc. You're going to find the same few issues in almost every thread. It eventually reaches the point where only the dedicated fans are left.

It can be harrowing. I for example periodically need breaks from seeing the same arguments occur ad infinitum every month or so. But you can't really expect the forum to change; what else ultimately do we have to discuss besides Mass Effect's flaws and qualities?

Modifié par Il Divo, 27 juillet 2010 - 01:40 .

[Whatever42]

Morrowind > Oblivion. No contest. Anyone who thinks differently is clearly mentally challenged.

[smudboy]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
Ok, I lied about not replying because you brought up Babylon 5. I do love the writing in in that series but I find it funny that you selected a series where Sheridan was brought back from the dead by the first one through almost supernatural means by the first one. NOTE: I'm not claiming the situation was parallel to Shepard - I know the first one was hyper advanced. Although, I never really understand how saving Sheridan required his 'life force'. Its a pretty mystical explanation - although the series did get mystical at times. 

That resurrection scene was done right.  We had all the elements to explain Sheridan surviving a fall, and a nuclear explosion.  (A wizard did it.  He's standing right next to him.)

And while I love Straczynski and think that he wrote a very good story and built a very deep, fascinating universe, I could still hack on his writing.

Well that's just your opinion, and stuff.  But now that just means you suck massive planets.

Specifically, his dialogue was often stilted and melodramatic. And I don't think his characters were well written. I found the romance between Sheridan and Delenn almost painful it was so awkward. I tend to fast forward to the next Londo scene because I know he'll be hatching something amusing.

There were some monologues that were quite preachy, and almost all of those were amazingly brilliant.  I admit a lot of the pacing in the first season was slow, but the ideas were solid.

I found their romance and farewell touching and heart breaking.  Two people in the same time and place trying to do the right thing.

That said, I did find the plot and story excellent, I can see why you would hold that up as an example.

It was planned out.  J.M. literally wrote a novels worth of writing every 4 months, non-stop.  Now ME, I thought was planned out.  It's a shame the writing wasn't planned out.

[Thesuperdevil]

Il Divo wrote...

Thesuperdevil wrote...

I realize the primary goal of the internet forum is to support discussion, but does it have to be this sort of nasty back-and-forth arguing that is little better than treading water in a pool full of sharks? Do not get me wrong; I am a stickler for civil discussion, but it gets to the point when disucssion no longer gets us anywhere. Why not instead think of potential solutions to the writing problem? Even the most cynical of people (myself included) can agree that at least a few Bioware employees with some influence read the forums on a relatively regular basis, and maybe one or two this thread. We may have no impact or a little impact; the specifics of the developer-gamer relationship with respect to Bioware are not known to me. But having something down is better than nothing at all, or in this case, pages of vitriol-soaked "discussion", with a few glimpses of civil discussion peeking out.

Nonetheless I expect to be ignored. Such is the nature of the internet forum I guess.

To be fair, the Elder Scrolls forums were no different when Oblivion came out; people were arguing left and right whether it was better or even as good as Morrowind. What's interesting is that Mass Effect 2 forum-wise has followed the exact same trend. Threads popped up left and right saying it was dumbed down, or much more enjoyable, etc. You're going to find the same few issues in almost every thread. It eventually reaches the point where only the dedicated fans are left.

It can be harrowing. I for example periodically need breaks from seeing the same arguments occur ad infinitum every month or so. But you can't really expect the forum to change; what else ultimately do we have to discuss besides Mass Effect's flaws and qualities?

I just think that SOMETHING needs to come out of this fairly long-standing thread, such as the DLC-related solution I proposed earlier. I think it's been agreed upon that while this isn't exactly a serious gamebreaking issue, it does damage rather significantly the immersion factor of ME2 which many gamers do seek...I was really only trying to prove that there ARE relatively simple ways to solve the issue; it doesn't have to be a retcon, but we don't necessarily have to be complacent either, and hope that Bioware "gets it right" in the next and final installment.

Modifié par Thesuperdevil, 27 juillet 2010 - 01:49 .

[crimzontearz]

Thesuperdevil wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Thesuperdevil wrote...

I realize the primary goal of the internet forum is to support discussion, but does it have to be this sort of nasty back-and-forth arguing that is little better than treading water in a pool full of sharks? Do not get me wrong; I am a stickler for civil discussion, but it gets to the point when disucssion no longer gets us anywhere. Why not instead think of potential solutions to the writing problem? Even the most cynical of people (myself included) can agree that at least a few Bioware employees with some influence read the forums on a relatively regular basis, and maybe one or two this thread. We may have no impact or a little impact; the specifics of the developer-gamer relationship with respect to Bioware are not known to me. But having something down is better than nothing at all, or in this case, pages of vitriol-soaked "discussion", with a few glimpses of civil discussion peeking out.

Nonetheless I expect to be ignored. Such is the nature of the internet forum I guess.

To be fair, the Elder Scrolls forums were no different when Oblivion came out; people were arguing left and right whether it was better or even as good as Morrowind. What's interesting is that Mass Effect 2 forum-wise has followed the exact same trend. Threads popped up left and right saying it was dumbed down, or much more enjoyable, etc. You're going to find the same few issues in almost every thread. It eventually reaches the point where only the dedicated fans are left.

It can be harrowing. I for example periodically need breaks from seeing the same arguments occur ad infinitum every month or so. But you can't really expect the forum to change; what else ultimately do we have to discuss besides Mass Effect's flaws and qualities?

I just think that SOMETHING needs to come out of this fairly long-standing thread, such as the DLC-related solution I proposed earlier. I think it's been agreed upon that while this isn't exactly a serious gamebreaking issue, it does damage rather significantly the immersion factor of ME2 which many gamers do seek...I was really only trying to prove that there ARE relatively simple ways to solve the issue; it doesn't have to be a retcon, but we don't necessarily have to be complacent either, and hope that Bioware "gets it right" in the next and final installment.

the one thing I would LOVE to see and most probably will NEVER see is an aknowledgement from Bioware that they screwed up in this field (and regarding Liara as well)

 As I said....it will never happen even in the face of a total riot about it....remember Ray's immortal words  "I don't know, we keep getting feedback that people find the mining minigame addictive" 

[chester013]

Ksandor wrote...

You can't bring Shepard back from dead -- it is impossible.

If you are brain dead your neurons and neural pathways and protein based memory molecules decompose. Since nobody knows what protein based memories and neural pathways Shepard had in life reconstructing them is impossible (you can't reconstruct memories and the personality).

Besides quantum mechanics says 100% reproduction is impossible. Especially when it comes to a complex system like a thinking brain. Unless there was some sort of hibernation mechanism in Shepard's suit reviving a brain dead person is impossible.

If I were Bioware I would create circumstances where Shepard's brain could be salvaged more or less intact. At least they did not clearly state that Shepard fell to the planet. No "body" can survive that. Simple impact would pulverize the body even if the atmosphere does not contain oxygen so the body would not burn. Maybe Shepard's body was in orbit and his body suit's emergency systems preserved him to some degree. Any specifics about this in Redemption comic?

The solution would be to imply that Shepard's body recovered from orbit and the suit protected him from extreme decomposition -- especially an emergency mechanism which protected his brain. This would not directly conflict with Jacob when he said Shepard was dead as dead can be and Miranda when he summarizes the extensive damage Shepard suffered. If your brain is preserved bringing you back from dead should be possible with future tech.

I wish they just said that Shepard was in comma for 2 years. That was the most plausible solution but Bioware wanted to scandalize audience with this flashy death idea so instead they have chosen this Hollywood no brainer. They should retcon this without conflicting Mass Effect 2.

Shut up

[chester013]

Ksandor wrote...

Mass effect fields are more plausible than bringing Shepard back from dead. You just don't understand how complex brain is. As Penrose stated in Emperor's New Mind reconstructing a brain is impossible. You may have the fastest quantum computer out there and still it would not be enough. Heisenberg's Principle of Uncertainty makes sure of that. You just don't understand the scientific implications here. I can suspend disbelief for mass effect fields but not for resurrecting people. This is science fiction dammit not epic fantasy! Why not retcon it? Star Wars does, Star Trek does why Bioware should not?

Mass effect fields more plausible? The technology all relies on a non-existent element and that's just the tip of the iceberg. However I suspend my disbelief it because it makes the game enjoyable you relentless bore.

Modifié par chester013, 27 juillet 2010 - 04:39 .

[Zinoviy]

Highdragonslayer wrote...

Science fiction

Need I say more?

No.


Go home, people.

[RiouHotaru]

smudboy wrote...

Spornicus wrote...
You're arguing that something that takes place in the future is impossible. You're an idiot.

I need to stop looking at this thread, it's destroying my sanity.

Or, you can try disproving my argument.  But then you'd have to actuall use your brain.

I don't know.  I'm kind thinking you're the idiot in this case.  But I forgive you.

(Wait, no I don't.)

Funny, every time we've tried disproving your argument, you say "But it wasn't made clear enough, therefore your points of contention are invalid".  You're being exactly like Zulu only just a bit more civil about it than he is.  We can agree that the "resurrection" was loose in the storytelling (to what degree of looseness is up to each individual player).

Also, why do we have to disprove your argument?  The only "argument" being made is that you think the resurrection was done really crappy and horribly explained, which isn't even an argument, it's a statement of opinion.

If your argument pretains to the OP's claim that brain-death is irreversible, then the burden of proof isn't on us to disprove you.  Because you haven't "proven" anything.  Bioware has presented us with a narrative device and several ideas as to what they did and how they did it, but left the entire process vague enough for us to draw our own conclusions.  So really, the burden of proof is on the OP and/or you to prove to the REST of us that reversing brain-death is an impossibility.  And quite frankly, that hasn't been done.

Yes, we have the cutscenes and the physics which claim Shepard likely underwent some amount of brain damage, but beyond that, you've provided no conclusive evidence whatsoever that reversal isn't possible, beyond the flat claim you and the OP make that "it's simply not possible, can't be done."  Hell, Bioware's vague cutscene gives us far more "evidence" in the form of a 2-year long operation which took billions of credits and only succeeded by the skin of it's teeth, which we see only snippets of.

So we (the rest of fanbase who haven't had our suspension of disbelief broken) are under no obligation to try and argue against your stance.  YOU, have to convince US.

[Water Dumple]

I've only read several of this thread's 18 pages, but honestly, is it that difficult to reach consensus through the realization that a game featuring sentient genocidal robots and ~10 implausible sorts of alien races is not intended to be realistic? And let's not forget the little telepathic powers thing, and the concept of increasing a fictional "Element Zero"'s mass by charging it with positive energy or decreasing its mass by channeling negative energy through it.



A game that does not intend to portray events currently in motion or those having already taken place is not intended to portray reality. Why don't you just agree that the story is quite imaginative and save the fights for something that actually matters?

[RiouHotaru]

Water Dumple wrote...

I've only read several of this thread's 18 pages, but honestly, is it that difficult to reach consensus through the realization that a game featuring sentient genocidal robots and ~10 implausible sorts of alien races is not intended to be realistic? And let's not forget the little telepathic powers thing, and the concept of increasing a fictional "Element Zero"'s mass by charging it with positive energy or decreasing its mass by channeling negative energy through it.

A game that does not intend to portray events currently in motion or those having already taken place is not intended to portray reality. Why don't you just agree that the story is quite imaginative and save the fights for something that actually matters?

Amen.

[Lotto]

is the OP always a ****?

[Massadonious1]

Water Dumple wrote...
 Why don't you just agree that the story is quite imaginative and save the fights for something that actually matters?

What matters is proving others wrong and/or perpetuating that your opinion is superior.

[Whereto]

i want my money back when u put it that way.....OMG its a god damn sci-FI as in science fiction and then its also a game. Ill admit it could of been done better but its a GAME, dont like it dont buy it cause this is a major part to the story

[Netzach]

Ok... so there can be Reapers but Shepard can't be resurrected.

Ok... In stories like Mass Effect you must have faith to believe what they are telling to you, if not, you are wasting your time.

Modifié par kanuvis, 27 juillet 2010 - 07:14 .