931 réponses à ce sujet

[Kitteh303]

Yeah, it's impossible, or at least highly unlikely, that Shepard could realistically be revived. However...this is a game. Even great games have plot points that aren't 100% realistic. Take BioShock, for example. Pretty well-received game, but the whole idea behind Rapture is kind of far fetched. Anyway, I'm willing to suspend disbelief for this game. It's just too good to obsess over this one point.



I have more of a beef with how ALL the squad members got on the shuttle before the collectors boarded the Normandy and abducted the crew.

[brady]

I Must Wholeheartedly Agree With You!!!

[BinaryHelix101]

Kitteh303 wrote...


I have more of a beef with how ALL the squad members got on the shuttle before the collectors boarded the Normandy and abducted the crew.

Who knows what will happen once the Reaper IFF is installed. Maybe the ship blows up. Why endanger your crew over that. It all worked out pretty well in the end, so it was the right choice by Shepard (to take everyone with him with the shuttle).

[Kitteh303]

BinaryHelix101 wrote...

Kitteh303 wrote...


I have more of a beef with how ALL the squad members got on the shuttle before the collectors boarded the Normandy and abducted the crew.

Who knows what will happen once the Reaper IFF is installed. Maybe the ship blows up. Why endanger your crew over that. It all worked out pretty well in the end, so it was the right choice by Shepard (to take everyone with him with the shuttle).

Huh. Never thought of it that way. And I guess we've all had those moments where we make an unusual decision that ends up being very lucky in the end. 

[wulf3n]

BinaryHelix101 wrote...
Who knows what will happen once the Reaper IFF is installed. Maybe the ship blows up. Why endanger your crew over that. It all worked out pretty well in the end, so it was the right choice by Shepard (to take everyone with him with the shuttle).

If that was really a concern why endanger any of the crew? I've never like that reasoning, "hey everything worked out ok so that must mean all the decisions made were correct, and couldn't have been done better" they can still be wrong decisions it's just dumb luck they managed to survive.

[Zulu_DFA]

BinaryHelix101 wrote...

Kitteh303 wrote...


I have more of a beef with how ALL the squad members got on the shuttle before the collectors boarded the Normandy and abducted the crew.

Who knows what will happen once the Reaper IFF is installed. Maybe the ship blows up. Why endanger your crew over that. It all worked out pretty well in the end, so it was the right choice by Shepard (to take everyone with him with the shuttle).

Only Shepard did not take everyone, and something horrible did happen, when the Collector ship came out of nowhere another plothole. Namely, the crew got abducted. So you fail at logic forever, my friend. The best guess still remains that the team went for a space pizza party.

[MTN Dew Fanatic]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

BinaryHelix101 wrote...

Kitteh303 wrote...


I have more of a beef with how ALL the squad members got on the shuttle before the collectors boarded the Normandy and abducted the crew.

Who knows what will happen once the Reaper IFF is installed. Maybe the ship blows up. Why endanger your crew over that. It all worked out pretty well in the end, so it was the right choice by Shepard (to take everyone with him with the shuttle).

Only Shepard did not take everyone, and something horrible did happen, when the Collector ship came out of nowhere another plothole. Namely, the crew got abducted. So you fail at logic forever, my friend. The best guess still remains that the team went for a space pizza party.

I thought everybody agreed that they went to Risa?

[smudboy]

RiouHotaru wrote...
Funny, every time we've tried disproving your argument, you say "But it wasn't made clear enough, therefore your points of contention are invalid".  You're being exactly like Zulu only just a bit more civil about it than he is.  We can agree that the "resurrection" was loose in the storytelling (to what degree of looseness is up to each individual player).

Funny, every time you try, you guys have either no idea what you're talking about, resort to emotional attacks, or make up stuff.  Seriously, that's what I've encountered.  Mind you there are a few who do have some valid science and math points to make, and that's always good.

But when it comes to explaining the narrative, it's pure fail.  It's not that you guys aren't trying.  It's because the narrative is that bad, and everything has their own imagination of what the narrative should have done, even though that stuff isn't even implied.

Also, why do we have to disprove your argument?  The only "argument" being made is that you think the resurrection was done really crappy and horribly explained, which isn't even an argument, it's a statement of opinion.

I've made quite a few in this thread.  I've shown how either Shepard gets incinerated by atmospheric pressure, or pulverized by smashing down onto the planet, to having all their organic material dissolved by the atmosphere.

If your argument pretains to the OP's claim that brain-death is irreversible, then the burden of proof isn't on us to disprove you.  Because you haven't "proven" anything.  Bioware has presented us with a narrative device and several ideas as to what they did and how they did it, but left the entire process vague enough for us to draw our own conclusions.  So really, the burden of proof is on the OP and/or you to prove to the REST of us that reversing brain-death is an impossibility.  And quite frankly, that hasn't been done.

Bringing back Shepard from molecules is pretty darned impossible.  Hell, they don't even have the illusion of the Star Trek transporter.  And this is just physical structure, not a preserved brain.  This all hinges on the narrative not explaining 1) death, 2) preservation, 3) resurrection.  So we have to draw our own conclusions. 

Which narrative device(s) did BioWare present?  I didn't see any, save unexplined death, unexplained preservation, and wrong to incorrect resurrection from audio logs, with mystery blue fluid and glowing clamps that have no exposition.  And robotic arms "cutting" something.  The hell does that mean?

You do not have a resurrection scene and leave the entire process vague.  You give us something for us to point to and go "that's how he got resurrected."  Let alone died and preserved.  Assuming it's the audience's job to start inventing causes is completely insane.  It's poor writing.  They're got an entire universe of sci-fi to work with, and they give us blue fluid and glowing clamps?  And the causes we come up with?  The in game effects say something completely different, while the science contradicts that.  Shepard was either a pancake and couldn't have been preserved/resurrected or literally burned up in the atmosphere.

Yes, we have the cutscenes and the physics which claim Shepard likely underwent some amount of brain damage, but beyond that, you've provided no conclusive evidence whatsoever that reversal isn't possible, beyond the flat claim you and the OP make that "it's simply not possible, can't be done."  Hell, Bioware's vague cutscene gives us far more "evidence" in the form of a 2-year long operation which took billions of credits and only succeeded by the skin of it's teeth, which we see only snippets of.

And there's the problem.  We don't know how this works.  A cutscene is a good start, but it's not enough.  If they wanted us to draw our own conclusions/make it a mystery, they wouldn't have shown us anything.  You either have something like Unobtainium with plot device power, or magic, that makes impossible sh+t happen.  Gatorade and glowing flashlight clamps?  Not cutting it.  1000+ mph + frozen planet of an not so dense atmosphere of methane and ammonia gas = kersplat.  Disintegration.  Mucho molecules.

The easier solution?  A wizard did it.  A magical plot device.  A crazed wizard-like scientist.  Or, if they went the medical miracle route, which they did, they'll need a few boat loads of exposition, because now they're forcing themselves to get technical.

So we (the rest of fanbase who haven't had our suspension of disbelief broken) are under no obligation to try and argue against your stance.  YOU, have to convince US.

If you haven't had your suspension of disbelief unbroken, congratulations!  I mean seriously, the luck is yours.  The rest of the thinking, reading, breathing population who had to sit there in disbelief don't.  All you're donig is whining "But it makes perfect sense, even if I don't understand it."  So how the hell do we argue with morons like this?  All you're giving us is the same observations, but you're not using your brain to go "wait a second..."  You just blindly accept it and ask for proof how Shepard couldn't have survived.

Frankly, I don't want to convince you.  If you can't see the observations for what they are, simply enjoy the game, shut up, and stop posting here.  You're clearly not operating on the same level as a most 10 year olds learning biology for the first time.

[BinaryHelix101]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

BinaryHelix101 wrote...

Kitteh303 wrote...


I have more of a beef with how ALL the squad members got on the shuttle before the collectors boarded the Normandy and abducted the crew.

Who knows what will happen once the Reaper IFF is installed. Maybe the ship blows up. Why endanger your crew over that. It all worked out pretty well in the end, so it was the right choice by Shepard (to take everyone with him with the shuttle).

Only Shepard did not take everyone, and something horrible did happen, when the Collector ship came out of nowhere another plothole. Namely, the crew got abducted. So you fail at logic forever, my friend. The best guess still remains that the team went for a space pizza party.

I mean that why risk the party members you've gone to great lengths recruiting, when you can leave just the essential personnel aboard. I mean if you have a pancake, and you want to try a new topping to it, you don't put the topping over the entire the pancake, you should put it in the corner and see if it tastes good. Weird example but whatever, I'm eating pancakes now.

And by the Collector ship arriving out of nowhere, the Reaper IFF sent signals to it so it knew where the Normandy was. Or do you mean that they arrived out of nowhere without a mass relay (I don't remember, it's been a while since I played the game).

[Valmarn]

Siansonea II wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

You people don't have enough to do. Go Outside And Play.

What if I'm busy detailing the social cultural impacts of interpersonal relationships between Shepard and Samara?

It'll keep. Now run along, get some fresh air and exercise, and stop caring so much about the junk science in a video game. You'll be happier in the long run.

Perhaps you should take your own advice, and get some fresh air and exercise, yourself.

Stop caring so much about people who want to continue a discussion about "the junk science in a video game."

[Kitteh303]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

BinaryHelix101 wrote...

Kitteh303 wrote...


I have more of a beef with how ALL the squad members got on the shuttle before the collectors boarded the Normandy and abducted the crew.

Who knows what will happen once the Reaper IFF is installed. Maybe the ship blows up. Why endanger your crew over that. It all worked out pretty well in the end, so it was the right choice by Shepard (to take everyone with him with the shuttle).

Only Shepard did not take everyone, and something horrible did happen, when the Collector ship came out of nowhere another plothole. Namely, the crew got abducted. So you fail at logic forever, my friend. The best guess still remains that the team went for a space pizza party.

Space pizza FTW.

[Siansonea]

Valmarn wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

You people don't have enough to do. Go Outside And Play.

What if I'm busy detailing the social cultural impacts of interpersonal relationships between Shepard and Samara?

It'll keep. Now run along, get some fresh air and exercise, and stop caring so much about the junk science in a video game. You'll be happier in the long run.

Perhaps you should take your own advice, and get some fresh air and exercise, yourself.

Stop caring so much about people who want to continue a discussion about "the junk science in a video game."

Aw, did ums hurt your widdle feelings?

[Valmarn]

wolfstanus wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Raxxman wrote...



7:27, definite glow surrounding Shepard, ergo, in atmosphere. QED. TBH I haven't tried to calculate how high the atmosphere would be on the planet,

There's something, but barely anything I can figure out what.  I still didn't see anything red.

The time thing is just a directorial thing. For the viewer the time frame from Shepard being blown away from the Normandy (6:50) and Shepard starting to glow (7:27) is a little under 40 seconds. This would imply that the normandy was already in the upper atmosphere at the time of destruction.

Ah?  The Normandy is in pieces.  I'm sure other pieces were already on their way to the planet.

And you have no idea about the ablative properties of Shepards armour. Repatedly saying he'd vapourise is a statement of ignorance, not inteligence.

I am quite ignorant to the ablative properties of Shepards armour, as are you.  Shepard would vaporize if the planet had a magnetosphere, which would constitute a complex Earth like atmosphere, which would involve a similar mesophere (where meteorites burn up), and a very odd ionosphere.   That is not ignorance, though definitely large heaping of stupdity.  We assume he crashed onto the planet due to the objects present, so we cannot argue there is a similar earth like atmosphere.  That is deduction.  Where they landed is a bit of a stretch.

The planet size thing is simple.

If (and I say if) Shepard is hitting the atmosphere then he's really close to the surface (like 50 to 100 miles off the surface). Yet during the the scene the planet looks like it's 1000's of miles away. Therefore their is a directorial error in the opening sequence. Either the planet is a lot lot closer than it's size suggests (IE the planet is too small) or atmosphereic entry effect is in error.

Either one is entirely plausable as both would be added for 'cool effect'

Okay.  Either way, Shepard's traveling at 1000s+ mph.  Kabloomie.

So by your logic He will burn up when Sheps armor is made up of materials that are unknown in this world you have no idea how heat resistant it is and you also do not know how fatst Shep is moving for reentry. Mind you he got blown up and was sent backwards against the planets rotation then got bumped back into the rotation We also do not know hor fast the Normandy was going during this time wich plays a part in how fast Shep is going. Also terminal velocity is the fastest the object can go when falling as in can't go any faster.  we do not know what that is on that planet. We also do not know how high up the atmosphere is for that planet. We also don't know much else about the planet other than what’s given in the codex. we do know people have survived terminal velocity falls onto cement or at least their bodies have (and yes some have survived). We also do not know how fast he was traveling when he hit the planet where he hit the angle he hit etc. Also Shep from what we do know was badly burned his body was largely broken and he was pretty much just "Meat and tubes" and he had to be put in a stasis pod to be preserved. We also know it took 2 years to get him back to the point in the game when it begins billions upon billions of credits he died a few times during this time. And yes he did enter the atmosphere that glow didn't come out of his ass just because he farted.

I am a whale biologist. I know these things.

Your post, overall, is pretty solid, but I found this sentence particularly intriguing: you're theorising that they made a number of failed attempts at rebuilding Shepard. I guess I hadn't really thought that much about what took place during those 2 years, but now that you mention it, it makes sense that there would have been some (if not several) failed attempts at restoring Shepard during those two years.

[Il Divo]

There's alot of love in this thread.

[Valmarn]

Siansonea II wrote...

Valmarn wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

You people don't have enough to do. Go Outside And Play.

What if I'm busy detailing the social cultural impacts of interpersonal relationships between Shepard and Samara?

It'll keep. Now run along, get some fresh air and exercise, and stop caring so much about the junk science in a video game. You'll be happier in the long run.

Perhaps you should take your own advice, and get some fresh air and exercise, yourself.

Stop caring so much about people who want to continue a discussion about "the junk science in a video game."

Aw, did ums hurt your widdle feelings?

Not exactly, but the juvenile nature of your response tells me that I might have hurt yours.

I suppose the truth does hurt, every-now-and-again.

Mind you, unlike your response, this is not a vain attempt at self-flattery. I just call them like I see them. On that note, what I saw in your post to which I initially responded was blatant hypocrisy.


Now, in case you haven't noticed, I don't spend too much time in this thread. In fact, this is the most time I've spent reading any one topic on these forums. It makes no difference to me whether this thread continues on past the 20-page mark, or finds itself in the archives.

I responded to your post not because my feelings were hurt, but because I simply have a strong dislike of hypocrisy.

[Siansonea]

Valmarn wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Valmarn wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

You people don't have enough to do. Go Outside And Play.

What if I'm busy detailing the social cultural impacts of interpersonal relationships between Shepard and Samara?

It'll keep. Now run along, get some fresh air and exercise, and stop caring so much about the junk science in a video game. You'll be happier in the long run.

Perhaps you should take your own advice, and get some fresh air and exercise, yourself.

Stop caring so much about people who want to continue a discussion about "the junk science in a video game."

Aw, did ums hurt your widdle feelings?

Not exactly, but the juvenile nature of your response tells me that I might have hurt yours.

I suppose the truth does hurt, every-now-and-again.

Mind you, unlike your response, this is not a vain attempt at self-flattery. I just call them like I see them. On that note, what I saw in your post to which I initially responded was blatant hypocrisy.


Now, in case you haven't noticed, I don't spend too much time in this thread. In fact, this is the most time I've spent reading any one topic on these forums. It makes no difference to me whether this thread continues on past the 20-page mark, or finds itself in the archives.

I responded to your post not because my feelings were hurt, but because I simply have a strong dislike of hypocrisy.

Well, I guess you told me. Don't really get how I'm a 'hypocrite', but whatever. I shall somehow find the strength to go on.

[racerfox]

I find threads like these hilarious. And while everything's probably been said, I'm going to chip in cause my ego won't let me ignore it. Obviously, what I have to say is just /that/ important... *ahem*

Mass Effect Generators.
FTL Travel.
The majority of aliens breath oxygen and are bipedal.
And so on...

This is Science FICTION, not reality.

Resurrecting a dead brain is certainly 100 times more believable than the three most prominent races in the galaxy somehow all sharing some of the most defining human characteristics. However, neither of these things are important.

And what are most important about to Mass Effect's success? Two things: The gameplay mechanics and the character interactions and story.

Everything else is secondary, even the originality of the design or the believability of the technology.

Mass Effect isn't going to win any awards for originality, nor for it's literary achievements outside of its medium, but that's not what it's for.

Mass Effect is pop sci-fi gaming done right. It's Hollywood fare but intelligently so. It uses generic and cliche devices but does so efficiently and effectively. And while it's certainly not perfect, picking on it for not adhering to some ideal that it was never meant to be held against is rather arrogant.

Suspension of disbelief works when the ratio of retarded impossibility is balanced with simple, efficient, and effective telling. ME gets that balance right for the most part which is /exactly/ why it's held in such high regard.

Modifié par racerfox, 28 juillet 2010 - 12:16 .

[smudboy]

racerfox wrote...

Suspension of disbelief works when the ratio of retarded impossibility is balanced with simple, efficient, and effective telling. ME gets that balance right for the most part which is /exactly/ why it's held in such high regard.

1. No it doesn't.
2. Everything you said before is irrelevant.  Saying "it's sci-fi" means nothing.

We can all buy that Shepard was brought back IF they properly explained it/used proper literary devices.

They did not.

[Clover Rider]

smudboy wrote...

racerfox wrote...

Suspension of disbelief works when the ratio of retarded impossibility is balanced with simple, efficient, and effective telling. ME gets that balance right for the most part which is /exactly/ why it's held in such high regard.

1. No it doesn't.
2. Everything you said before is irrelevant.  Saying "it's sci-fi" means nothing.

We can all buy that Shepard was brought back IF they properly explained it/used proper literary devices.

They did not.

It was the dragon balls .

[rabidhanar]

Some Geth wrote...
It was the dragon balls .

And on that note: It's Over 9000!!!


Yes, gimicks and cop-outs occur in most media. I personally can suspend belief on this subject, because of the time period involved (future 200+ year increase in technology). Now if Shepard suddenly became able to Fly, while riding a unicorn, and Dancing a slip-jig I would be very worried.

[ADLegend21]

smudboy wrote...

racerfox wrote...

Suspension of disbelief works when the ratio of retarded impossibility is balanced with simple, efficient, and effective telling. ME gets that balance right for the most part which is /exactly/ why it's held in such high regard.

1. No it doesn't.
2. Everything you said before is irrelevant.  Saying "it's sci-fi" means nothing.

We can all buy that Shepard was brought back IF they properly explained it/used proper literary devices.

They did not.

give it a rest, point is Shepard died then came back and saved humanity yet again, deal with it.

[Clover Rider]

rabidhanar wrote...

Some Geth wrote...
It was the dragon balls .

And on that note: It's Over 9000!!!


Yes, gimicks and cop-outs occur in most media. I personally can suspend belief on this subject, because of the time period involved (future 200+ year increase in technology). Now if Shepard suddenly became able to Fly, while riding a unicorn, and Dancing a slip-jig I would be very worried.

9000 my ass  :innocent:

[rabidhanar]

Some Geth wrote...
9000 my ass  :innocent:

Ah interesting, (runs downstairs to rewatch the first season of DBZ)........You are correct.

Back on topic, What do you think this thread will really do? Will Shepard get an email from TIM saying that he realy was not dead, but was near dead? Face it, nothing will really change, the reasoning was a cop-out but I personally can forgive that. It is better than Shepard being stronger than every enemy he faces, even though the enemy happens to be 10 times stronger than the last one. (cough 'DBZ' cough).

[Il Divo]

smudboy wrote...
1. No it doesn't.
2. Everything you said before is irrelevant.  Saying "it's sci-fi" means nothing.

We can all buy that Shepard was brought back IF they properly explained it/used proper literary devices.
They did not.

And yet, for all their uses, literary devices weren't able to tell me why our laws of physics were so easily broken in Mass Effect. It simply tells me that they were in fact broken for all the good that does. Unobtanium or not, this is supposed to be an "alternate reality" setting. I would like to see some believable mechanics behind this alternate reality.

Modifié par Il Divo, 28 juillet 2010 - 02:07 .

[smudboy]

Il Divo wrote...

smudboy wrote...
1. No it doesn't.
2. Everything you said before is irrelevant.  Saying "it's sci-fi" means nothing.

We can all buy that Shepard was brought back IF they properly explained it/used proper literary devices.
They did not.

And yet, for all their uses, literary devices weren't able to tell me why our laws of physics were so easily broken in Mass Effect. It simply tells me that they were in fact broken for all the good that does. Unobtanium or not, this is supposed to be an "alternate reality" setting. I would like to see some believable mechanics behind this alternate reality.

Why: the writer wrote it as such.