931 réponses à ce sujet

[Killjoy Cutter]

GifMike wrote...

Ksandor wrote...

You can't bring Shepard back from dead -- it is impossible.

If you are brain dead your neurons and neural pathways and protein based memory molecules decompose. Since nobody knows what protein based memories and neural pathways Shepard had in life reconstructing them is impossible (you can't reconstruct memories and the personality).

Besides quantum mechanics says 100% reproduction is impossible. Especially when it comes to a complex system like a thinking brain. Unless there was some sort of hibernation mechanism in Shepard's suit reviving a brain dead person is impossible.

If I were Bioware I would create circumstances where Shepard's brain could be salvaged more or less intact. At least they did not clearly state that Shepard fell to the planet. No "body" can survive that. Simple impact would pulverize the body even if the atmosphere does not contain oxygen so the body would not burn. Maybe Shepard's body was in orbit and his body suit's emergency systems preserved him to some degree. Any specifics about this in Redemption comic?

The solution would be to imply that Shepard's body recovered from orbit and the suit protected him from extreme decomposition -- especially an emergency mechanism which protected his brain. This would not directly conflict with Jacob when he said Shepard was dead as dead can be and Miranda when he summarizes the extensive damage Shepard suffered. If your brain is preserved bringing you back from dead should be possible with future tech.

I wish they just said that Shepard was in comma for 2 years. That was the most plausible solution but Bioware wanted to scandalize audience with this flashy death idea so instead they have chosen this Hollywood no brainer. They should retcon this without conflicting Mass Effect 2.

It's actually completely plausable, but it suspiciously requires reaper technology.  Was Cerberus in league with the reapers all along?  While in darkspace the reapers focused solely on regeneration research, following the scientific rules bound to darkspace.  You'd be amazed at the stuff they can do.  There isn't a plot point in the universe that can't be fully explained by just saying the phrase 'Use the Darkspace'

I thought "dark space" was just a reference to deep intergalactic space... nothing special about its physics... it's just space... and its dark.

[Moiaussi]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...


I thought "dark space" was just a reference to deep intergalactic space... nothing special about its physics... it's just space... and its dark.

That was the common assumption,but in ME2 there are references to 'dark energy', which shouldn't have anything to do with 'dark space' in the conventional context.

[didymos1120]

Moiaussi wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
I thought "dark space" was just a reference to deep intergalactic space... nothing special about its physics... it's just space... and its dark.

That was the common assumption,but in ME2 there are references to 'dark energy', which shouldn't have anything to do with 'dark space' in the conventional context.

There've been references to dark energy from the beginning of the series.  The titular mass effect is created by manipulating it:

Element zero  can increase or decrease the mass of volume of space-time when subjected to an electrical current. With a positive current, mass is increased. With a negative current, mass is decreased. The stronger the current, the greater the magnitude of the dark energy mass effect.

and (from the eezo codex entry):

When subjected to an electrical current, the rare material dubbed element zero, or "eezo", emits a dark energy field that raises or lowers the mass of all objects within it.

Biotics, of course, rely upon it as well:

Biotics is the ability of rare individuals to manipulate dark energy and create mass effect fields through the use of electrical impulses from the brain.

It's not the dark energy itself that's odd: it's the fact that it's doing weird things that people haven't seen it doing before.

"Dark space" really is just space.  That's dark.  'Cause it's in the intergalactic medium.  There's dark energy in dark space, but that's because there's dark energy everywhere.  That's just how it rolls.

What people should actually be latching onto is the fact that eezo requires things like supernovas for its creation...and something is screwing around with stellar life cycles.

Modifié par didymos1120, 02 septembre 2010 - 03:47 .

[Stokar]

You know, leaving Shepard in an exclamation point or a semicolon would have been nicer than leaving him in a comma. Comma's are uncomfortable.

[JJ Long]

It is science fiction, who cares if it doesn't make sense in the real world.

They resurrected Spock in Star Trek.

[Moiaussi]

JJ Long wrote...

It is science fiction, who cares if it doesn't make sense in the real world.
They resurrected Spock in Star Trek.

In Star Trek they have transporter technology, which is pretty consistant and explains rather a lot. There are numerous episodes where people have been reconstructed in one way or another.

If anything it is questionable that Spock died in the first place. Regardless, when he was brought back, he was amnisiac for a long time and died with his brain intact rather than mushed into a planet or exposed to vacuum.

[didymos1120]

JJ Long wrote...

It is science fiction, who cares if it doesn't make sense in the real world.
They resurrected Spock in Star Trek.

People who like hard SF?  It doesn't always succeed of course, but as a general rule, that sub-genre tries to avoid handwaving and provide as much justification as it can for its fictional technologies.  Of course, ME isn't hard SF, it's space opera.

[Fugiz]

In the future they will have cloud support and memories can be stored off body...

[smudboy]

Moiaussi wrote...

JJ Long wrote...

It is science fiction, who cares if it doesn't make sense in the real world.
They resurrected Spock in Star Trek.

In Star Trek they have transporter technology, which is pretty consistant and explains rather a lot. There are numerous episodes where people have been reconstructed in one way or another.

If anything it is questionable that Spock died in the first place. Regardless, when he was brought back, he was amnisiac for a long time and died with his brain intact rather than mushed into a planet or exposed to vacuum.

Indeed.  As well, they had his mind stored in McKoy, so even if we didn't grasp the whole materialistic argument of mind, we literally have that magical Vulcan link going on with the Spock Brain Carrier, who transfers it back to Spock.

Shepard had magical traitorous Wilson powers.

[Archereon]

The real problem with Shepard coming back from the dead is that its completely unnecessary, and creates more plot issues than it solves. A brief narrated cutscene would have sufficed to bring us up to speed on the general happenings of the last two years, and a bit of cleverly disguised "as you know" would do for the rest.

[Heimdall]

Archereon wrote...

The real problem with Shepard coming back from the dead is that its completely unnecessary, and creates more plot issues than it solves. A brief narrated cutscene would have sufficed to bring us up to speed on the general happenings of the last two years, and a bit of cleverly disguised "as you know" would do for the rest.

Well it was used as an explanation for shepard's loss of powers from ME1 and the character creater.  Something many sequels don't bother to do and I like that they did.  I'm very good at suspending disbelief so the implausability never bothered me much at all

[Archereon]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Archereon wrote...

The real problem with Shepard coming back from the dead is that its completely unnecessary, and creates more plot issues than it solves. A brief narrated cutscene would have sufficed to bring us up to speed on the general happenings of the last two years, and a bit of cleverly disguised "as you know" would do for the rest.

Well it was used as an explanation for shepard's loss of powers from ME1 and the character creater.  Something many sequels don't bother to do and I like that they did.  I'm very good at suspending disbelief so the implausability never bothered me much at all

I personally prefer Gameplay and story segregation over a REALLY bad plot device.  Considering that characters recognize you as Shepard no matter what changes you make to your face, its essentially a retcon of your appearence, and as classes don't play any role in the Mass Effect story, its irrelevant whether or not there's a justification for the change.  Furthermore, there's no explicit statement in the game that the ressurection was the cause of Shepard being reverted to level 1, levels in Mass Effect 2 are not integrated into the story, just as they were not integrated into Mass Effect 1's story.  (Shepard starts at level 1 in ME despite being an elite veteran soldier.)

If they REALLY needed a justification for the first two, they could have come up with an alternative, for example, a mandatory Alliance Military Profile reconstruction, or the Citadel Space equivelent. 

[Admiral Awsome]

Archereon wrote...



If they REALLY needed a justification for the first two, they could have come up with an alternative, for example, a mandatory Alliance Military Profile reconstruction, or the Citadel Space equivelent.

Like the Council's spectre database containing the list of people with spectre status.

[Archereon]

Admiral Awsome wrote...

Archereon wrote...

If they REALLY needed a justification for the first two, they could have come up with an alternative, for example, a mandatory Alliance Military Profile reconstruction, or the Citadel Space equivelent.

Like the Council's spectre database containing the list of people with spectre status.

Yeah.  "Please construct profile"

*You customize your Shepard in appearence and class, thus eliminating any need for the Lazarus project.

[hawat333]

Ksandor wrote...

You can't bring Shepard back from dead -- it is impossible.

You know, scifi stands for science fiction. Look up what fiction means.

[Archereon]

hawat333 wrote...

Ksandor wrote...

You can't bring Shepard back from dead -- it is impossible.

You know, scifi stands for science fiction. Look up what fiction means.

Ressurection is a frowned upon plot element in most of its uses.  While it has been used masterfuly by some writers, Bioware failed to pull it off, ultimately it seems cheap, and serves no plot value.

[Heimdall]

Archereon wrote...

hawat333 wrote...

Ksandor wrote...

You can't bring Shepard back from dead -- it is impossible.

You know, scifi stands for science fiction. Look up what fiction means.

Ressurection is a frowned upon plot element in most of its uses.  While it has been used masterfuly by some writers, Bioware failed to pull it off, ultimately it seems cheap, and serves no plot value.

Of course it does, it's supposed to make you grateful to Cerberus, it was the only reason my Shepard was willing to hear TIM out

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 02 septembre 2010 - 10:37 .

[Matdeception]

Why are you even saying he's coming back from the dead? None of the people directly involved in the Lazarus project even mention that he died at all.

You can NOT use Jacob as a reference. He's a Security officer/Toady for Miranda. How the **** would he know anything about the medical processes involved with Shepard coming back? All he really knows is he was nothing but meat and tubes when he first saw him.

Does he actually have a medical degree? Does he actually know anything about what the hell processes Cerberus cooked up to restore Shepard? Hell I can look at a dog on the side of the road and say he's dead too, but when that thing starts mewling I'd be like "OH FUX ZOMBIE DAWG!" Which wouldn't make me right at all, but I can still *say* that.

You can't even imply he does. You're using the viewpoint of one ignorant man with no true knowledge of just what the hell went down with Shepard to actually assume they had to reconstruct his damn brain. I don't ever remember Miranda herself saying "Yeah, you're brain was stirfry, took us forever to get that back in working order."

It can be *implied* that he was bad off, especially with the questions to make sure all his neurological functions were intact or some such, but really? Do you really have want to use this as credible evidence?

The man belly flopped from orbit. He spent an unknown amount of time being jacked up by the artic temperatures. He was recovered by TSB using who knows what kind of technology, and he was *alive* at that point in time. It's even mentioned in the Redemption Comic. And then he got hijacked from TSB before they could complete the deal with the Collectors.

He then spent two years unconscious going through who knows what kind of terribly painful and likely experimental procedures to reconstruct and repair his body. We assume he's kept unconscious through out all this, but who knows for sure?

Hell, I'd give him the same test just out of practicality after he went through everything.

Modifié par Matdeception, 02 septembre 2010 - 11:00 .

[Moiaussi]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Well it was used as an explanation for shepard's loss of powers from ME1 and the character creater.  Something many sequels don't bother to do and I like that they did.  I'm very good at suspending disbelief so the implausability never bothered me much at all

That explaination breaks the premise that Shepard is brought back 'exactly as before.' Neither Miranda nor TIM seem to take notice of the changes at all. You can change his appearance entirely and they still talk about bringing him back exactly the same.

They likewise don't even seem to acknowledge that the cybernetics added are a change.

[Archereon]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Archereon wrote...

hawat333 wrote...

Ksandor wrote...

You can't bring Shepard back from dead -- it is impossible.

You know, scifi stands for science fiction. Look up what fiction means.

Ressurection is a frowned upon plot element in most of its uses.  While it has been used masterfuly by some writers, Bioware failed to pull it off, ultimately it seems cheap, and serves no plot value.

Of course it does, it's supposed to make you grateful to Cerberus, it was the only reason my Shepard was willing to hear TIM out

And Cerberus is just an attempt to make Mass Effect 2 darker and edgier (by forcing us to work with terrorists).  The entire plot of Mass Effect 2 could have been done with Shepard working for the council, and it wouldn't have strained the audiences suspension of disbelief nearly as much.  (ressurection, when used improperly, really kills suspension of disbelief.)

[Heimdall]

Moiaussi wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Well it was used as an explanation for shepard's loss of powers from ME1 and the character creater.  Something many sequels don't bother to do and I like that they did.  I'm very good at suspending disbelief so the implausability never bothered me much at all

That explaination breaks the premise that Shepard is brought back 'exactly as before.' Neither Miranda nor TIM seem to take notice of the changes at all. You can change his appearance entirely and they still talk about bringing him back exactly the same.

They likewise don't even seem to acknowledge that the cybernetics added are a change.

The Illusive Man refused to let Miranda put in a control chip.  To me this means they wanted Shepard's mind back the way it was, not necesarily his/her body. 

[Zurcior]

Archereon wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Archereon wrote...

hawat333 wrote...

Ksandor wrote...

You can't bring Shepard back from dead -- it is impossible.

You know, scifi stands for science fiction. Look up what fiction means.

Ressurection is a frowned upon plot element in most of its uses.  While it has been used masterfuly by some writers, Bioware failed to pull it off, ultimately it seems cheap, and serves no plot value.

Of course it does, it's supposed to make you grateful to Cerberus, it was the only reason my Shepard was willing to hear TIM out

And Cerberus is just an attempt to make Mass Effect 2 darker and edgier (by forcing us to work with terrorists).  The entire plot of Mass Effect 2 could have been done with Shepard working for the council, and it wouldn't have strained the audiences suspension of disbelief nearly as much.  (ressurection, when used improperly, really kills suspension of disbelief.)

 Maybe for you. Don't project onto others.

[smudboy]

Matdeception wrote...
Does he actually have a medical degree? Does he actually know anything about what the hell processes Cerberus cooked up to restore Shepard? Hell I can look at a dog on the side of the road and say he's dead too, but when that thing starts mewling I'd be like "OH FUX ZOMBIE DAWG!" Which wouldn't make me right at all, but I can still *say* that.

I don't think it takes a medical degree, for a soldier who has seen combat, to identify pieces of flesh and body parts as "something that is dead."

[Archereon]

Zurcior wrote...

Archereon wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Archereon wrote...

hawat333 wrote...

Ksandor wrote...

You can't bring Shepard back from dead -- it is impossible.

You know, scifi stands for science fiction. Look up what fiction means.

Ressurection is a frowned upon plot element in most of its uses.  While it has been used masterfuly by some writers, Bioware failed to pull it off, ultimately it seems cheap, and serves no plot value.

Of course it does, it's supposed to make you grateful to Cerberus, it was the only reason my Shepard was willing to hear TIM out

And Cerberus is just an attempt to make Mass Effect 2 darker and edgier (by forcing us to work with terrorists).  The entire plot of Mass Effect 2 could have been done with Shepard working for the council, and it wouldn't have strained the audiences suspension of disbelief nearly as much.  (ressurection, when used improperly, really kills suspension of disbelief.)

 Maybe for you. Don't project onto others.

I could write a plot for ME2 that doesn't require cerberus at all, and it would be almost identical to the one we have now.  (thouhgh, if I had full creative control, I would have removed quite a bit more than Cerberus and the Lazarus project.)

[smudboy]

Zurcior wrote...
Maybe for you. Don't project onto others.

He's not projecting.  We'd like to thnk others (you) are given the benefit of the doubt (aren't morons.)  But clearly, railroading, having 0 plot relevance to a plot and the overarching one, throwing logic, reason and proper storytelling away, all for wanting a "darky, edgier sequel with the mysterious terrorist group"--> much more important that having every part of the narrative make sense.