931 réponses à ce sujet

[Admiral Awsome]

smudboy wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

JJ Long wrote...

It is science fiction, who cares if it doesn't make sense in the real world.
They resurrected Spock in Star Trek.

In Star Trek they have transporter technology, which is pretty consistant and explains rather a lot. There are numerous episodes where people have been reconstructed in one way or another.

If anything it is questionable that Spock died in the first place. Regardless, when he was brought back, he was amnisiac for a long time and died with his brain intact rather than mushed into a planet or exposed to vacuum.

Indeed.  As well, they had his mind stored in McKoy, so even if we didn't grasp the whole materialistic argument of mind, we literally have that magical Vulcan link going on with the Spock Brain Carrier, who transfers it back to Spock.

Shepard had magical traitorous Wilson powers.

At least in Star Trek, even if something seems absurd, the characters usually try to explain how something happened or try to explain how they're solving the problem. Even if it's techno babble that no one understands there is still exposition regarding the situation. In ME2, there is none.

"Holy crap! You brought me back to life! How?"
"Shut up and get to the first mission."

Modifié par Admiral Awsome, 03 septembre 2010 - 04:38 .

[didymos1120]

Admiral Awsome wrote...
At least in Star Trek, even if something seems absurd, the characters usually try to explain how something happened or try to explain how they're solving the problem. Even if it's techno babble that no one understands there is still exposition regarding the situation.

If the exposition is just meaningless gibberish, I don't see how it contributes anything at all.  At best, it might trick someone into thinking they explained something, but in my book, that's a pretty cheap trick.   In fact, that's one of the most common criticisms of Trek in general (and Voyager in particular): overreliance on purely ornamental technobabble.

Modifié par didymos1120, 03 septembre 2010 - 04:46 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

Admiral Awsome wrote...
"Holy crap! You brought me back to life! How?"
"Shut up and get to the first mission."

I suppose that was better than some nonsense explanation. I still feel this whole plot point was a waste of time and unneccesary however.

[Admiral Awsome]

didymos1120 wrote...

Admiral Awsome wrote...
At least in Star Trek, even if something seems absurd, the characters usually try to explain how something happened or try to explain how they're solving the problem. Even if it's techno babble that no one understands there is still exposition regarding the situation.

If the exposition is just meaningless gibberish, I don't see how it contributes anything at all.  At best, it might trick someone into thinking they explained something, but in my book, that's a pretty cheap trick.   In fact, that's one of the most common criticisms of Trek in general (and Voyager in particular): overreliance on purely ornamental technobabble.

I still think some explanation (short and sweet with a dash of techno babble) would be better then nothing.  Something along the lines of:

"We used this cocktail of vitamins, minerals, etc. to renourish your body. We used this, this and this to repair your muscles and this procedure to repair your bone bone structure. These devices were used to jump your nervous system..."

As mentioned by many it would have been better to avoid this situation.

Modifié par Admiral Awsome, 03 septembre 2010 - 05:10 .

[In Exile]

Admiral Awsome wrote...
I still think some explanation (short and sweet with a dash of techno babble) would be better then nothing. As mentioned by many it would have been better to avoid this situation.

They did give you short technobable. An intro video with magic fluid being poured into Shepard that revived all of his dead cells (science doesn't work that way); mental plates being inserted into his bones (bones are tissue; how does rigid metal help at all?) and so on. That's as coherent as any reverse polarization of the tachyon transwarp field.

With the amount of times ME took a dump on biology, I'm rather glad they just stuck to the magic fluid intro.

[In Exile]

Admiral Awsome wrote..
"We used this cocktail of vitamins, minerals, etc. to renourish your body. We used this, this and this to repair your muscles and this procedure to repair your bone bone structure. These devices were used to jump your nervous system..."

As mentioned by many it would have been better to avoid this situation.

No, no it wouldn't be. Vitamins and minerals don't work this way! The amount of butchery of science that goes on when technobabble comes on...

It's just better when we file it under magic rather than take a jackhammer to the skull of anyone that understands anything about the world.

[Inquisitor Recon]

In Exile wrote...
With the amount of times ME took a dump on biology, I'm rather glad they just stuck to the magic fluid intro.

Stop complaining about biology, if you had your way, all of the aliens would be a waste of Shepards time.

[In Exile]

ReconTeam wrote...
Stop complaining about biology, if you had your way, all of the aliens would be a waste of Shepards time.

?

That came out of left field. What are you talking about?

[Inquisitor Recon]

In Exile wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...
Stop complaining about biology, if you had your way, all of the aliens would be a waste of Shepards time.

?

That came out of left field. What are you talking about?

It's the insanity speaking. I may have mistook you for someone else.

[Matdeception]

In Exile wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...
Stop complaining about biology, if you had your way, all of the aliens would be a waste of Shepards time.

?

That came out of left field. What are you talking about?

He's talking about the science behind Aliens getting Nasty with Shepard. It was a fairly big debate, especially concerning Garrus and Tali considering their opposite chirality to our own. Long story short - You can insert/enjoy the pleasure of hot Alien Sex and all you'll have to worry about is an allergic reaction.

Unless you swallow. Mordin warns against this, heavily.

[In Exile]

Matdeception wrote...
He's talking about the science behind Aliens getting Nasty with Shepard. It was a fairly big debate, especially concerning Garrus and Tali considering their opposite chirality to our own. Long story short - You can insert/enjoy the pleasure of hot Alien Sex and all you'll have to worry about is an allergic reaction.

Unless you swallow. Mordin warns against this, heavily.

Oh, I see. No, I don't nitpick science-fiction to this level. I'm of the opinion that once you start taking the hammer to physics, you really need to suspend disbelief at anthropomorphization and so on.

My issue is just with the immunology of the quarians and evolution.

Modifié par In Exile, 03 septembre 2010 - 05:35 .

[Moiaussi]

Mr.BlazenGlazen wrote...

What part of science fiction don't you understand?

Science fiction, regardless of quality? Or good science fiction?

[Matdeception]

In Exile wrote...

Matdeception wrote...
He's talking about the science behind Aliens getting Nasty with Shepard. It was a fairly big debate, especially concerning Garrus and Tali considering their opposite chirality to our own. Long story short - You can insert/enjoy the pleasure of hot Alien Sex and all you'll have to worry about is an allergic reaction.

Unless you swallow. Mordin warns against this, heavily.

Oh, I see. No, I don't nitpick science-fiction to this level. I'm of the opinion that once you start taking the hammer to physics, you really need to suspend disbelief at anthropomorphization and so on.

My issue is just with the immunology of the quarians and evolution.

I just wish they never explained it. I'd be perfectly happy remaining ignorant rather then having that itch in my mind teling me 'This is some effed up shiat right here.'

[didymos1120]

Matdeception wrote...
 When Cerberus first got Shepard from TSB he was alive. It was mentioned in the comic.

That's not the case.  Feron tells Liara after she asks if Shep is dead:

Yes -- or very close to it.  It's hard to say.  The body has been recovered, in some kind of stasis pod -- if not dead, then certainly not alive.

Here's how a Blue Suns merc describes the "merchandise":

Surprised there was that much -- human body must be able to take some real punishment

The Shadow Broker:

You make too much of this, Liara. It's a corpse.

Miranda once it's recovered:

We may not be able to restore Shepard after all. The body is in worse shape than we expected. There were some preservation systems in the pod but they were hardly optimal.

And some terms used to describe Shep throughout: "body", "corpse", "dead", "remains", "package", "merchandise", "product"

So, I don't know where you got this idea that the comic says Shep was alive but, well, it wasn't from the actual comic.  If it's that statement by Feron, you're grasping at straws.  That's a complete non-answer to the "Dead or alive?" question.

Modifié par didymos1120, 03 septembre 2010 - 09:41 .

[Archereon]

didymos1120 wrote...

Archereon wrote...
Ressurection is a frowned upon plot element in most of its uses. 

Really?  Which uses are those ( if all you say is "comic books" I'm gonna be disappointed)  , and who exactly (besides you, and of course Smudboy) is doing all that frowning? 

Besides comic books, there's also Dungeons and Dragons (which removes the entire value of death), most video games that include literal ressurection. 

Then there's optimus prime...

(I can keep going if you'd care.)

[Moiaussi]

Archereon wrote...

Besides comic books, there's also Dungeons and Dragons (which removes the entire value of death), most video games that include literal ressurection. 

Then there's optimus prime...

(I can keep going if you'd care.)

The vast majority of those are fantasy, and the res's involve divine intervention of some sort or other. Do you think that Mass Effect should have people coming back from the dead via actual gods? Maybe that could be how Shep beats the reavers. He and his companions could have a prayer session and God himself strike their attackers dead. Bet that would sell a lot of copies....

Optimus Prime is an autobot, a sentient machine ala the Geth. When he 'died' his memory core wasn't damaged. Even then he did need extraordinary repairs (he needed the matrix, which is essentially the autobot central processor, capable of outright matter reaarangement) for the full ressurection).

In fantasy, the ressurections are not granted arbitrarily the way they are in a typical MMO either.

[Matdeception]

didymos1120 wrote...

Matdeception wrote...
 When Cerberus first got Shepard from TSB he was alive. It was mentioned in the comic.

That's not the case.  Feron tells Liara after she asks if Shep is dead:

Yes -- or very close to it.  It's hard to say.  The body has been recovered, in some kind of stasis pod -- if not dead, then certainly not alive.

Here's how a Blue Suns merc describes the "merchandise":

Surprised there was that much -- human body must be able to take some real punishment

The Shadow Broker:

You make too much of this, Liara. It's a corpse.

Miranda once it's recovered:

We may not be able to restore Shepard after all. The body is in worse shape than we expected. There were some preservation systems in the pod but they were hardly optimal.

And some terms used to describe Shep throughout: "body", "corpse", "dead", "remains", "package", "merchandise", "product"

So, I don't know where you got this idea that the comic says Shep was alive but, well, it wasn't from the actual comic.  If it's that statement by Feron, you're grasping at straws.  That's a complete non-answer to the "Dead or alive?" question.

Actually you are right. Had to drag the files out and go through him again to confirm, but yep.

However. The claim his brain had to be reconstructed still falls short. It can be implied that if the body were damaged then certainly his brain was damaged, but there just isn't factual evidence that isn't based off conjecture.

[Archereon]

Moiaussi wrote...

Archereon wrote...

Besides comic books, there's also Dungeons and Dragons (which removes the entire value of death), most video games that include literal ressurection. 

Then there's optimus prime...

(I can keep going if you'd care.)

The vast majority of those are fantasy, and the res's involve divine intervention of some sort or other. Do you think that Mass Effect should have people coming back from the dead via actual gods? Maybe that could be how Shep beats the reavers. He and his companions could have a prayer session and God himself strike their attackers dead. Bet that would sell a lot of copies....

Optimus Prime is an autobot, a sentient machine ala the Geth. When he 'died' his memory core wasn't damaged. Even then he did need extraordinary repairs (he needed the matrix, which is essentially the autobot central processor, capable of outright matter reaarangement) for the full ressurection).

In fantasy, the ressurections are not granted arbitrarily the way they are in a typical MMO either.

In D&D and many RPGs they are.  The simple fact is, making death cheap in a series is a bad move unless its a major plot point (death being easy to circumnagivate).  I was simply listing examples for a guy who asked me to procure an example of poorly done ressurection besides comic books.

[Moiaussi]

Archereon wrote...

In D&D and many RPGs they are.  The simple fact is, making death cheap in a series is a bad move unless its a major plot point (death being easy to circumnagivate).  I was simply listing examples for a guy who asked me to procure an example of poorly done ressurection besides comic books.

Ah... actually though you seemed to be bringing up examples where it is used relatively well. In the case of Optimus it was partly to give the show a new direction (Rodimus was 'younger' and less serious than Optimus, and partly to show tragedy, but the ressurrection both worked and was consistant with the rest of the setting.

In the case of fantasy and some science fiction, it is often a central theme. In Narnia, Aslan's return is meant to be an analogy to that of Christ. The series was meant as Christian metaphor. That analogy is used many other times ressurection is used, often poorly, but also often well.

In Riverworld, it was a central theme to the books. The whole concept of famous people coming back, and repeatedly, was the main thread of the series.

In Doctor Who it is likewise a central theme for the main character, one of serial re-incarnation. His arch-nemesis, the Master, has similar. Some of the other foes have been brought back from the dead in various ways, at the most extreme including the complete re-writing of history. Again, though, that is consistant with the show's central theme of issues regarding time travel.

The problem with ME2 is that it is not consistant and brings up a lot of issues, including 'if they can re-create any given adult in two years or less, what is so great about the Krogan?'

If they can copy minds like that or recreate/rebuild them, why are there still messy interrogation techniques like torture?

Why is it when Shep dies despite his companions being healthy and able to win/recover his non-planet fallen theoretically much easier to put back together body, it is game over?

We already have the issue that the Council are unwilling to even consider Shep offering a voluntary mental interrogation at the hands of the Asari..... this just compounds that a thousandfold.

[Archereon]

Moiaussi wrote...

Archereon wrote...

In D&D and many RPGs they are.  The simple fact is, making death cheap in a series is a bad move unless its a major plot point (death being easy to circumnagivate).  I was simply listing examples for a guy who asked me to procure an example of poorly done ressurection besides comic books.

Ah... actually though you seemed to be bringing up examples where it is used relatively well. In the case of Optimus it was partly to give the show a new direction (Rodimus was 'younger' and less serious than Optimus, and partly to show tragedy, but the ressurrection both worked and was consistant with the rest of the setting.

In the case of fantasy and some science fiction, it is often a central theme. In Narnia, Aslan's return is meant to be an analogy to that of Christ. The series was meant as Christian metaphor. That analogy is used many other times ressurection is used, often poorly, but also often well.

In Riverworld, it was a central theme to the books. The whole concept of famous people coming back, and repeatedly, was the main thread of the series.

In Doctor Who it is likewise a central theme for the main character, one of serial re-incarnation. His arch-nemesis, the Master, has similar. Some of the other foes have been brought back from the dead in various ways, at the most extreme including the complete re-writing of history. Again, though, that is consistant with the show's central theme of issues regarding time travel.

The problem with ME2 is that it is not consistant and brings up a lot of issues, including 'if they can re-create any given adult in two years or less, what is so great about the Krogan?'

If they can copy minds like that or recreate/rebuild them, why are there still messy interrogation techniques like torture?

Why is it when Shep dies despite his companions being healthy and able to win/recover his non-planet fallen theoretically much easier to put back together body, it is game over?

We already have the issue that the Council are unwilling to even consider Shep offering a voluntary mental interrogation at the hands of the Asari..... this just compounds that a thousandfold.

There's also the problem, that if you ressurect a character in a western work, everyone will automatically assume (s)he's a Christ metaphor.  While one case ressurections are generally okay in fantasy settings when its done by divine intervention, settings which allow ressurection through magic, (or science, in the case of sci-fi) beg the question as to why that cannot be implimented on a large scale, the societal implications of which are really poor for the plot.  (unless mass ressurection is a major plot point.)

In D&D, for example, one must wonder why the fabulously wealthy don't just have a wizzard ressurect them whenever they die.

[smudboy]

Moiaussi wrote...

Archereon wrote...

In D&D and many RPGs they are.  The simple fact is, making death cheap in a series is a bad move unless its a major plot point (death being easy to circumnagivate).  I was simply listing examples for a guy who asked me to procure an example of poorly done ressurection besides comic books.

Ah... actually though you seemed to be bringing up examples where it is used relatively well. In the case of Optimus it was partly to give the show a new direction (Rodimus was 'younger' and less serious than Optimus, and partly to show tragedy, but the ressurrection both worked and was consistant with the rest of the setting.

In the case of fantasy and some science fiction, it is often a central theme. In Narnia, Aslan's return is meant to be an analogy to that of Christ. The series was meant as Christian metaphor. That analogy is used many other times ressurection is used, often poorly, but also often well.

In Riverworld, it was a central theme to the books. The whole concept of famous people coming back, and repeatedly, was the main thread of the series.

In Doctor Who it is likewise a central theme for the main character, one of serial re-incarnation. His arch-nemesis, the Master, has similar. Some of the other foes have been brought back from the dead in various ways, at the most extreme including the complete re-writing of history. Again, though, that is consistant with the show's central theme of issues regarding time travel.

The problem with ME2 is that it is not consistant and brings up a lot of issues, including 'if they can re-create any given adult in two years or less, what is so great about the Krogan?'

If they can copy minds like that or recreate/rebuild them, why are there still messy interrogation techniques like torture?

Why is it when Shep dies despite his companions being healthy and able to win/recover his non-planet fallen theoretically much easier to put back together body, it is game over?

We already have the issue that the Council are unwilling to even consider Shep offering a voluntary mental interrogation at the hands of the Asari..... this just compounds that a thousandfold.

Take a bow you sexy man you.  In a futuristic flying sled, no less.

[Archereon]

Smudboy: We can only hope that Bioware forgets about the Lazarus project completely (or stows it in a conveniently dark corner of their minds) by the time ME3 comes around. Its not like it contributed anything to the plot.

[Sherlock Ohms]

I'm sure that this has been mentioned before somewhere but what if the method of resurrection is plot relevant for the future? I would agree that it is not shown as being relevant to the plot of ME2, but for instance if it does involve Reaper tech it may become relevant during ME3? It's maybe a twist that is being saved until then. The only bit that concerns me is that I would have thought Shepard would have been more concerned about how it had been achieved, but even that's not a big deal for me.



I can't imagine Bioware doing a retcon on this, and I hope they don't. To me it is worse to change a story after the event. If they deem it necessary to address the issue I would prefer they just added some more detailed explanation somewhere down the line.

[In Exile]

Moiaussi wrote...
The problem with ME2 is that it is not consistant and brings up a lot of issues, including 'if they can re-create any given adult in two years or less, what is so great about the Krogan?'

If they can copy minds like that or recreate/rebuild them, why are there still messy interrogation techniques like torture?

Why is it when Shep dies despite his companions being healthy and able to win/recover his non-planet fallen theoretically much easier to put back together body, it is game over?

The answer to all of these could simply be cost (except for the last one - that's obviously just gameplay). It may a significant economic and material investment, as well as time and energy, to get even close to reviving a dead body. Mass producing the technology may not be possible, It may also be the case that copying minds does not really work, that you would need an actual body as some kind of anchor.

We can fanwank inconsistencies away or not, as we choose. This is why I never really understood the need to debate these psuedo-science issues, unless it was obviously incoherent by the established rules of the story.

[Archereon]

In Exile wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...
The problem with ME2 is that it is not consistant and brings up a lot of issues, including 'if they can re-create any given adult in two years or less, what is so great about the Krogan?'

If they can copy minds like that or recreate/rebuild them, why are there still messy interrogation techniques like torture?

Why is it when Shep dies despite his companions being healthy and able to win/recover his non-planet fallen theoretically much easier to put back together body, it is game over?

The answer to all of these could simply be cost (except for the last one - that's obviously just gameplay). It may a significant economic and material investment, as well as time and energy, to get even close to reviving a dead body. Mass producing the technology may not be possible, It may also be the case that copying minds does not really work, that you would need an actual body as some kind of anchor.

We can fanwank inconsistencies away or not, as we choose. This is why I never really understood the need to debate these psuedo-science issues, unless it was obviously incoherent by the established rules of the story.

The notion that this technology would be so expensive that it'd be a one time deal is absurd.  The Illusive man may be wealthy, he may even be one of the wealthiest men in the galaxy, but if something like this is possible, there would dozens of billonaires out there cheating death, not just one marine.