931 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

Perhaps that is exactly why TIM kept this kind of technology away from the common billionaire?

[didymos1120]

Archereon wrote...
I was simply listing examples for a guy who asked me to procure an example of poorly done ressurection besides comic books.

Oh, no, no, no.  That is not what I was asking you to do.  I was asking you to substantiate this claim:

Archereon wrote...
Ressurection is a frowned upon plot element in most of its uses. 

No moving the goalposts.

[stewie1974]

It's a plot device...

Shepard at end of ME1 is with the allience.
Shepard during the events of ME2 is with cerburus, working for them...

The killing and resurrecting him wasn't simply a way to explain passage of time, but also the tranisiton from one alligence to the other ....

sure we could have had a nifty prolouge that lasted two or three hours of shepard in meetings and eventually telling the council to go to hell and then joining cerburus as a result... but that would have been as entertaining as the phantom menace ....

It's cinematic, its a punchier intro then the meetings alternative...... you want to get new players as well as old fans... having an intro of a load of meetings, is going to tune out a lot of new players who just wouldn't bother to explore the game fully.

wether it can be done or not is irrelevent..... its fiction anyhow.

And just in case nobody noticed.... it's a video game, not a movie.

Modifié par stewie1974, 03 septembre 2010 - 10:56 .

[Lucien_Diva]

As yes... "resurrection"... we have dismissed that claim...

More seriously, though... I've skimmed back over the replies that have gone before, and I don't think I saw anyone invoking the MST3K Mantra, which is kind of relevant:

tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MST3KMantra

Also, in a similar vein - coming back from the dead is both Rule of Cool:

http://tvtropes.org/...Main/RuleOfCool

and draws a subtle parallel with another famous dude who came back from the dead:

http://tvtropes.org/...Main/TheMessiah

Just my two cents...

EDIT: fixed link

Modifié par Lucien_Diva, 03 septembre 2010 - 11:06 .

[didymos1120]

Lucien_Diva wrote...

and draws a subtle parallel with another famous dude who came back from the dead:

I hope you meant 'subtle' sarcastically.  I don't mind Project Lazarus bringing back Commander Shepard myself, but subtle it is not.

[Lucien_Diva]

Subtle as a lemon wrapped round a gold brick... Yes, I did indeed mean it somewhat sarcastically, but I probably should have made it more clear - I always forget that the voice my post uses in my head is no guide to how other people's will sound to them...

EDIT: fat-fingered typing

Modifié par Lucien_Diva, 03 septembre 2010 - 11:26 .

[In Exile]

Archereon wrote...

The notion that this technology would be so expensive that it'd be a one time deal is absurd. 

Of course it is. Good thing I never said it would be so expensive that it would be a one-time deal. I only said that it could be so expensive as to be impossible to mass-produce, so we would not see it used as an alternative to interrogation, for example.

Beyond that, we can even fan-****** Shepard's death away, by saying that with Shepard dead, the Collector's overrun humanity faster than Cerberus can raise the funds to rebuild you again (they do mention in game that Lazarus+SR2 effectively drained all of the resources of Cereberus for the immediate future).

The Illusive man may be wealthy, he may even be one of the wealthiest men in the galaxy, but if something like this is possible, there would dozens of billonaires out there cheating death, not just one marine.

Certainly. We see no evidence in game that this is not the case, however. It may well be that the cure for death is not being publicized for a variety of reasons.

Again - I don't care for fanwank. But we can certainly engage in it if you wish.

[In Exile]

didymos1120 wrote...

I hope you meant 'subtle' sarcastically.  I don't mind Project Lazarus bringing back Commander Shepard myself, but subtle it is not.

,

I'm not sure I get the reference to Shepard. Lazarus is the name of the person Jesus revived from the dead, as I recall. I don't see the relation to Shepard, though.

[Lucien_Diva]

Maybe because Jesus is likened by some to humanity's "Shepherd", watching over us as his 'flock'...?

And I wasn't specifically referring to Lazarus, which I am pretty sure was named in-universe by cerberus for the biblical character coming back from the dead, but more that Shepard dying, and resurrecting has parallels - as does gathering followers around oneself... how many squad members in total are there in Mass Effect... is it 12? (10 you pick up in ME2, + Liara and Kaidan/Ashley?)... I know I'm stretching an analogy to breaking point here, and my tongue is in my cheek a fair bit

I don't think it's any particular significance, story-wise - the dying/returning to life of the hero/saviour is a relatively common narrative device anyway and just goes to prove how unstoppable and awesome said hero is

It's also a good way to make sure you can't just import a Level 60 character from ME1 and essentially OWN the entire game from the get-go... There's no way Bioware could have prevented cake-walking by such ultra-powerful "GOD!Shepards" while keeping it reasonable, difficulty-wise, for "mere mortal' Shepards

tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RestartAtLevelOne

[Lucien_Diva]

Although, having said that, I can understand why my skills are back to Level 1 thanks to a mild case of Death but what happened to my Millions of Credits... were they all stashed in bullion on the Normandy 1 or what? Or, did my former squadmates give themselves a goodbye present when they went their seperate ways after my 'death'

[didymos1120]

In Exile wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

I hope you meant 'subtle' sarcastically.  I don't mind Project Lazarus bringing back Commander Shepard myself, but subtle it is not.

,

I'm not sure I get the reference to Shepard. Lazarus is the name of the person Jesus revived from the dead, as I recall. I don't see the relation to Shepard, though.

You're not aware of all the shepherd imagery around Christ?  Here's a good example:

"You will all fall away," Jesus told them, "for it is written:  " 'I will strike the shepherd,  and the sheep will be scattered.'"

and probably the best-known one:

"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep."

There's a bunch more in the New Testament.  It was also a common bit of imagery in the OT as well.

And yes, the spelling is different, but 'Shepard' is just a variant of the same occupation-derived surname (just like 'Shepperd' or 'Shephard').

[Lucien_Diva]

Also, from the first game - your principal adversary for most of it is one of your own group who has gone rogue and 'fallen from grace' if you will - Saran... now, R is right next to T on my keyboard... maybe someone at Bioware mistyped his name with an R by mistake initially, and it just stuck

[didymos1120]

Actually, it's Saren

[Lucien_Diva]

Damn - guess that blows that theory out of the water, then... oh well  

[In Exile]

Lucien_Diva wrote...

Although, having said that, I can understand why my skills are back to Level 1 thanks to a mild case of Death but what happened to my Millions of Credits... were they all stashed in bullion on the Normandy 1 or what? Or, did my former squadmates give themselves a goodbye present when they went their seperate ways after my 'death'

Your assets were frozen on your death, and distributed by your estate. Coming back from a case of the dead is pretty atypical, so sadly the banking system and the estate lawyers were at a loss in terms of what they could do.

[In Exile]

didymos1120 wrote...
You're not aware of all the shepherd imagery around Christ?  Here's a good example:

There's a bunch more in the New Testament.  It was also a common bit of imagery in the OT as well.

And yes, the spelling is different, but 'Shepard' is just a variant of the same occupation-derived surname (just like 'Shepperd' or 'Shephard').

No - I'm not a Christian, nor was I brought up in a religious household, so I'm rather ignorant when it comes to the specifics of the bible. Yes, I can see why the entire plot point would seem very heavy-handed with that sort of imagery in mind.

[Lucien_Diva]

Ah, this makes sense - though, in the case of being declared legally dead I think if you suddenly pop up alive you can have the write of probate on the original estate revoked and claim back from your, shocked, beneficiaries what is left of the Estate that was distributed...

Unless Ma Sheperd, or whoever Shepard left his Estate to, went on a massive bender or he was a total idiot whom, despite being in a job where death is a distinct possibility, nonetheless died intestate and forfeited his estate to the Alliance government or whoever, then the majority of my Shepard's 10,000,000 credit legacy should be intact and ready to take possession of again

Maybe whoever it was invested unwisely, such as in Baby Buggies manufacturing for Krogans, or Sun-block for Turians, or the company that underwrote the disaster insurance for the Citadel...

[didymos1120]

In Exile wrote...
No - I'm not a Christian, nor was I brought up in a religious household, so I'm rather ignorant when it comes to the specifics of the bible.

What's funny about that is that's just about as likely to be true of a professed Christian too.  Some would say it's even more likely, counter-intuitive as that may be.  Certainly seems to be the case with most creationists, anyway.

Modifié par didymos1120, 04 septembre 2010 - 05:09 .

[Moiaussi]

Lucien_Diva wrote...


and draws a subtle parallel with another famous dude who came back from the dead:

http://tvtropes.org/...Main/TheMessiah

This definately does not apply unless it is some sort of criticism of religion. The equivalent bible story would be if Jesus was brought back by the Devil (or at least someone other than God) and just happened to start working for the power that brought him back, tossing the commandments out the window.

[Moiaussi]

In Exile wrote...

Your assets were frozen on your death, and distributed by your estate. Coming back from a case of the dead is pretty atypical, so sadly the banking system and the estate lawyers were at a loss in terms of what they could do.

Death was never confirmed (neither the Alliance nor the Council ever had the corpse), so how was he even declared dead anyway? As a Spectre, he could have simply been out of communications. Even as a non-spectre he could have been out of communications.

In fact, that is one of the other plot holes. Why was it assumed he was dead? Without a corpse why wouldn't they even consider that he might have been captured instead? They where attacked by  the 'Collectors.'

[didymos1120]

Moiaussi wrote...
Death was never confirmed (neither the Alliance nor the Council ever had the corpse), so how was he even declared dead anyway?

What, you want to know what petition needs to filed in the whatever circuit of the Citadel court system and how long one must wait before filing it?  Who cares? As to how in general? Death in absentia of some sort. 

Why was it assumed he was dead? Without a corpse why wouldn't they even consider that he might have been captured instead? They where attacked by  the 'Collectors.'

Someone's gone for two years after their ship gets 'sploded, and they were last seen getting blasted out into space with no hope of reaching an escape pod by someone who was the pilot of said ship?  Why would you not think they're dead, Spectre or no? Also, someone obviously rescued the survivors, and just as obviously failed to locate Shep. And, nobody knew at the time who'd attacked the Normandy: 

Joker:  "We're under attack by an unknown enemy."

Modifié par didymos1120, 04 septembre 2010 - 06:36 .

[In Exile]

Moiaussi wrote..
Death was never confirmed (neither the Alliance nor the Council ever had the corpse), so how was he even declared dead anyway? As a Spectre, he could have simply been out of communications. Even as a non-spectre he could have been out of communications.

They did confirm him to be dead. Beyond the scene a the Citadel as proof, we have the news reels (e.g. Shepard Memorial Plaza, for the War Hero background) where they talk about the centres build to honour Shepard's memory. I don't know about you, but as far as I know people get their memorial plaza's after death, as opposed to before.

In fact, that is one of the other plot holes. Why was it assumed he was dead? Without a corpse why wouldn't they even consider that he might have been captured instead? They where attacked by  the 'Collectors.'

This isn't a plot hole. ME2 has several rather huge ones, but Shepard being taken to be dead after being MIA isn't particularly strange. The Normandy exploded and we have a witness that saw Shepard fly out into space. No body was ever collected, but as it turns out humans have a rather impossible time surviving being lost in space. So even if Shepard was alive at the time of being spaced, it is perfectly plausible to declare him dead.

[Lucien_Diva]

Moiaussi wrote...

In fact, that is one of the other plot holes. Why was it assumed he was dead?

Only TIM had suspected the collectors were involved, and even *he* was pretty sketchy on the details - it isn't until you go to that colony and watch the video the quarian guy made of the abduction that you catch the collectors and confirm their involvement. Two years before, when the Normandy was destroyed, no one really suspected them.

As for the assumption of death - Joker saw Shepard floating off into space in a suit just before launching in the last escape pod. I am assuming that when all pods were accounted for later, the records of who was in them (since the ship seems to know when you are aboard and ashore I guess it tracks something) could be examined - so with a Normandy shot down in flames on the one hand, many eye-witness accounts of Shepard's being the last to leave on the other, Joker telling how he saw Shepard float off into hard vacuum after saving his life in the last pod on another hand, and no record of Shepard entering any of the escape pods, it would be logical to declare him MIA, presumed dead - it's unlikely anyone would try to find the body, as it would be almost impossible to find a cold, human-sized corpse if you don't know the velocity or vector it left the ship with... like looking for a particular grain of sand in the sahara desert. Easier to just give him a month or so to turn up, then declare him dead in absentia after a particularly nasty accident/crash.

EDIT: I have just noticed that I appear to have three metaphorical hands...

Modifié par Lucien_Diva, 04 septembre 2010 - 06:41 .

[Heimdall]

Moiaussi wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Your assets were frozen on your death, and distributed by your estate. Coming back from a case of the dead is pretty atypical, so sadly the banking system and the estate lawyers were at a loss in terms of what they could do.

Death was never confirmed (neither the Alliance nor the Council ever had the corpse), so how was he even declared dead anyway? As a Spectre, he could have simply been out of communications. Even as a non-spectre he could have been out of communications.

In fact, that is one of the other plot holes. Why was it assumed he was dead? Without a corpse why wouldn't they even consider that he might have been captured instead? They where attacked by  the 'Collectors.'

Given that he was last seen on a ship that exloded, not in the escape pods and apparently removed from wherever his body was resting not long after by the Shadowbroker, I can see where they may draw the conclusion that he was dead.  Besides, space is big.  Unfortunatly the bodies of crewmen from downed ships are likely often not found

[Lucien_Diva]

So even if Shepard was alive at the time of being spaced, it is perfectly plausible to declare him dead.

Good point! Forgot that one - you can reasonably assume that when he left the ship involuntarily, he will only live a matter of hours, not days or weeks... also, didn't his suit spring a leak anyway, so I think his life-expetancy was measured in minutes rather than hours, but on the bright side did freeze-dry his corpse quite nicely...