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Dear Bioware you need a Retcon. Resurrecting Shepard is impossible


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#701
Moiaussi

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Lucien_Diva wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

In fact, that is one of the other plot holes. Why was it assumed he was dead?


Only TIM had suspected the collectors were involved, and even *he* was pretty sketchy on the details - it isn't until you go to that colony and watch the video the quarian guy made of the abduction that you catch the collectors and confirm their involvement. Two years before, when the Normandy was destroyed, no one really suspected them.


Which still doesn't make any sense. The collectors aren't unknown. The Normandy might not have recognized the hull pattern, but it makes no sense that noone would. Mordin suspected collector involvement before Shep mentioned them, and he is only ex-STG. Since all escape pods were safe and accounted for, it would follow that the ships black box (or a copy of the data from it) should have been recovered too, allowing the scans to be compared with a wider range of known signatures.

Otherwise, why wouldn't everyone (including Mordin and for that matter the Normandy crew) simply assume it was just a new Geth design?

#702
Lucien_Diva

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, it would follow that the ships black box (or a copy of the data from it) should have been recovered too, allowing the scans to be compared with a wider range of known signatures.


Wasn't the Normandy in a dangerous area of geth space, though - their stealth drive kept them safe and invisible, supposedly, but no other ship could have gone there and picked up the black box without a similar stealth system. Besides, the Normandy was the most advanced ship in the fleet and supposedly undetectable and invisible - and it just got its metaphorical a** well and truly handed to it, killing several Alliance officers including the "hero of the citadel". The Alliance aren't going to want to throw any more ships or lives away trying to find the black-box, which will tell them that the Normandy was shot down by a massive unknown ship with an unrecognised energy weapon - something they can learn from the survivors anyway...

And while the collectors are *known* - this ship was something new, being about the size of a reasonable colony or space station, and capable of detecting and one-shot-killing an invisible ship without breaking a sweat...

EDIT: Spelling

Modifié par Lucien_Diva, 04 septembre 2010 - 07:04 .


#703
didymos1120

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Moiaussi wrote...
Mordin suspected collector involvement before Shep mentioned them, and he is only ex-STG.


Involvement in a completely different set of events.  What's more, events occurring on Omega, which is the system where Collectors were typically, if uncommonly, seen.  It also fit much better with their typical area of interest: anomalous/interesting genetics.

Modifié par didymos1120, 04 septembre 2010 - 07:13 .


#704
Moiaussi

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Lucien_Diva wrote...


Wasn't the Normandy in a dangerous area of geth space, though - their stealth drive kept them safe and invisible, supposedly, but no other ship could have gone there and picked up the black box without a similar stealth system. Besides, the Normandy was the most advanced ship in the fleet and supposedly undetectable and invisible - and it just got its metaphorical a** well and truly handed to it, killing several Alliance officers including the "hero of the citadel". The Alliance aren't going to want to throw any more ships or lives away trying to find the black-box, which will tell them that the Normandy was shot down by a massive unknown ship with an unrecognised energy weapon - something they can learn from the survivors anyway...

And while the collectors are *known* - this ship was something new, being about the size of a reasonable colony or space station, and capable of detecting and one-shot-killing an invisible ship without breaking a sweat...

EDIT: Spelling


The lifepods had to be rescued somehow. Why wouldn't there be a copy of the black box with them? And the whole point of a black box is to record useful data, which would include the energy signature and hull pattern of the ship that shot you down.

The collector ship wasn't thaaat big unless it was a lot further from the Normandy than it appeared to be. And it didn't one-shot the Normandy. It took two shots and even then the Normandy hull might have been recoverable (it didn't seem to blow up). It was a cruiser firing at close range against a frigate though, using something implied better than normal mass drivers, so if anything its weapons seemed weak. How many hits should a frigate be able to take from a cruiser firing at point blank?

#705
Lucien_Diva

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Moiaussi wrote...

The lifepods had to be rescued somehow. Why wouldn't there be a copy of the black box with them? And the whole point of a black box is to record useful data, which would include the energy signature and hull pattern of the ship that shot you down.

The collector ship wasn't thaaat big unless it was a lot further from the Normandy than it appeared to be. And it didn't one-shot the Normandy. It took two shots and even then the Normandy hull might have been recoverable (it didn't seem to blow up). It was a cruiser firing at close range against a frigate though, using something implied better than normal mass drivers, so if anything its weapons seemed weak. How many hits should a frigate be able to take from a cruiser firing at point blank?


I assumed the pods just automatically made for the system's mass relay and jumped through it.

I haven't seen the introduction movie in a while, but now you mention it, I think I'm transposing in my mind the ship from Horizon into it so you have a point there.

Even so, the energy weapon used is not the standard ones used in ships - the kinetic barriers and hull are not designed to protect from it so it just slices through - the ship might be salvageable, but I'm pretty sure the order to abandon ship is given pretty sharpish after that first blast rips through it. If I remember rightly, isn't the cannon that hits you the same one you later research and fit into the new Normandy, so you can engage the ship on a more equal footing on the other side of the Omega-4 relay...

More worrying was the fact that they could apparently see through the cloak - I thought the point of the Normandy was to be a ninja-like ship - weak and lightly armoured, but stealthy enough to sneak past enemies invisibly. Didn't they use most of the ship's power to run the massive mass effect drive and stealth, leaving not much left for shields and weapons?

I may be completely mis-remembering though.

Modifié par Lucien_Diva, 04 septembre 2010 - 07:33 .


#706
Moiaussi

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Lucien_Diva wrote...

I assumed the pods just automatically made for the system's mass relay and jumped through it.

I haven't seen the introduction movie in a while, but now you mention it, I think I'm transposing in my mind the ship from Horizon into it so you have a point there.

Even so, the energy weapon used is not the standard ones used in ships - the kinetic barriers and hull are not designed to protect from it so it just slices through - the ship might be salvageable, but I'm pretty sure the order to abandon ship is given pretty sharpish after that first blast rips through it. If I remember rightly, isn't the cannon that hits you the same one you later research and fit into the new Normandy, so you can engage the ship on a more equal footing on the other side of the Omega-4 relay...

More worrying was the fact that they could apparently see through the cloak - I thought the point of the Normandy was to be a ninja-like ship - weak and lightly armoured, but stealthy enough to sneak past enemies invisibly. Didn't they use most of the ship's power to run the massive mass effect drive and stealth, leaving not much left for shields and weapons?

I may be completely mis-remembering though.


By then though for all anyone knew the Geth could have figured out a method of detection (looking for a hole in space where stars should be but the light is blocked by the shadow of the ship would be a possiblilty).

It was a joint Turian/Human venture and Saren was still an active Spectre when it was deployed, so it should be reasonable to conclude others would know the tech exists and thus be looking for counters. They had two years.

As for the lifepods, jump capable lifepods? Really? Why bother with scouting frigates? Just use one man scout pods like that...

#707
Lucien_Diva

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As for the lifepods, jump capable lifepods? Really? Why bother with scouting frigates? Just use one man scout pods like that...




Not practical for anything but emergencies? After all, I'm guessing they aren't very comfortable - limited air, sub-light propulsion for in system travel. I thought Mass Effect relays were special, and aren't like FTL drives, - more like gateways. Anything can go through them if they are active and float near enough to be grabbed and propelled - no-one knows how they work, or how to build them - they just use them... after all, the Mako jumps through one at the end of ME1 to get to the citadel, and that's like a monster truck!



Don't intersystem communications operate through Mass Effect Relays too, to avoid the years and years of delay while data propagates normally at luminal velocity between star systems...



I mean, technically, you *could* use a life-raft for scouting missions on the ocean, in the same way, but they just aren't designed for that kind of mission, and keeping the crew comfortable and well enough to do their duty would be impractical enough to outweigh the benefits gained...

#708
Moiaussi

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Lucien_Diva wrote...


As for the lifepods, jump capable lifepods? Really? Why bother with scouting frigates? Just use one man scout pods like that...


Not practical for anything but emergencies? After all, I'm guessing they aren't very comfortable - limited air, sub-light propulsion for in system travel. I thought Mass Effect relays were special, and aren't like FTL drives, - more like gateways. Anything can go through them if they are active and float near enough to be grabbed and propelled - no-one knows how they work, or how to build them - they just use them... after all, the Mako jumps through one at the end of ME1 to get to the citadel, and that's like a monster truck!

Don't intersystem communications operate through Mass Effect Relays too, to avoid the years and years of delay while data propagates normally at luminal velocity between star systems...

I mean, technically, you *could* use a life-raft for scouting missions on the ocean, in the same way, but they just aren't designed for that kind of mission, and keeping the crew comfortable and well enough to do their duty would be impractical enough to outweigh the benefits gained...


Or much more likely they are just life pods, with emergency thrusters only and limited supplies.

What you have been suggesting is a response of OMG they killed a frigate! Everyone hide!

Not sure that is a particularly useful tactic.

#709
Lucien_Diva

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True - but I think it was more the supposedly invisible stealth ship being owned so fully and completely by something out there, and killing Shepard in the process, that caused such concern...



I'm not totally sure, but I think no Alliance ship goes back to that system until the new and improved Normandy 2 arrives to visit the crash-site of the first Normandy on a side mission, to pick up remains and dog-tags from those who died in the attack and return them to the Alliance military.



I agree it's not an ideal tactic to avoid that system, but then again neither is failing to realise there's a hopeless battle for the time being there, and new weapons and tactics are going to be required. After all, what if you head back in force, destroy the first ship and then find there's a whole fleet of them waiting behind - now, you've lost a whole bunch of ships instead of just one.

#710
Fingolfin09

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ITS A ****ING GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

#711
Moiaussi

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Fingolfin09 wrote...

ITS A ****ING GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Is not..  well there was a bit of that in ME1, but it was more or less stylized. It is more snuggle-ish in ME2...

#712
MarkieeAi

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Well Shepard's heart was intact - The personality and the souls is in your "original" heart so, Nuff Said :P and no I don't belive in religon :P

#713
didymos1120

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Lucien_Diva wrote...
I agree it's not an ideal tactic to avoid that system, but then again neither is failing to realise there's a hopeless battle for the time being there, and new weapons and tactics are going to be required.


I'm kinda surprised no one's mentioned this yet:  the Amada system, where the SR-1 was attacked, is in the Omega Nebula.  It's in the Terminus Systems. Hell, technically, it is a Terminus system, even if nobody lives there at the moment.  They were taking a risk with even letting the Normandy go geth hunting there in the first place.  Its stealth and the political climate post-Saren were likely the only reasons such a mission was even considered, much less approved...and then it fails in grand, spectacular fashion with its primary results being the destruction of the SR-1 mere months after it entered service and the apparent death of Commander Shepard.  No way in hell was anybody from Council space going anywhere near there for the forseeable future.  It's practically a miracle that the surviving crew was even rescued.

Modifié par didymos1120, 04 septembre 2010 - 09:30 .


#714
Ackadian

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I will never understand how people can take a perfect story and try to ruin it for everyone else.. Stop nuking the damn game man its a great story and if you don't like it don't play it. Bioware isn't going to change anything whats done is done and i think both games are perfect the way they are. Amazing game play, graphics, music, story, everything.. keep up the good work Bioware.

#715
upsettingshorts

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You know what is even worse than a plot device that people may or may not be willing to accept?



A retcon.

#716
Moiaussi

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Upsettingshorts wrote...

You know what is even worse than a plot device that people may or may not be willing to accept?

A retcon.


You know what is almost as bad? Learning nothing from a retcon done in a sequel (Shep simply accepting Cerberus).

Similarly bad is not improving bad writing when writing the next in a series.

#717
heretica

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This stuff never gets old, does it?

#718
Zurcior

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Moiaussi wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

You know what is even worse than a plot device that people may or may not be willing to accept?

A retcon.


You know what is almost as bad? Learning nothing from a retcon done in a sequel (Shep simply accepting Cerberus).

Similarly bad is not improving bad writing when writing the next in a series.


Shepard didn't "simply accept" Cerberus. There was an entire mission dedicated to Shepard finding out whether or not Cerberus was telling the truth about the Reapers kidnapping colonists.

#719
Moiaussi

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Zurcior wrote...

Shepard didn't "simply accept" Cerberus. There was an entire mission dedicated to Shepard finding out whether or not Cerberus was telling the truth about the Reapers kidnapping colonists.


So... you are trying to argue that he knew all that before getting on the shuttle? For all he knew, the mech 'malfunction' was a rescue attempt. The Alliance were independantly investigating anyway, hence the meeting with Ashley. He had no independant confirmation of anything at that point, not even of the date.

#720
Rheinlandman

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Meeting with Ashley? Whachu talking about? I meet with Kaiden

#721
Aidrian

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Ksandor wrote...

Mass effect fields are more plausible than bringing Shepard back from dead. You just don't understand how complex brain is. As Penrose stated in Emperor's New Mind reconstructing a brain is impossible. You may have the fastest quantum computer out there and still it would not be enough. Heisenberg's Principle of Uncertainty makes sure of that. You just don't understand the scientific implications here. I can suspend disbelief for mass effect fields but not for resurrecting people. This is science fiction dammit not epic fantasy! Why not retcon it? Star Wars does, Star Trek does why Bioware should not? :)


500 years ago it was impossible that the earth was round...
100 years ago it was impossible for me to say 'Hello' in Australia and for you to see it happen in Germany

'impossible' is a limitation placed on what we 'THINK' we 'KNOW'

saying that something is impossible because we cant do it right now... doesnt mean it is

if you were to tell a 2 dimensional being that you are 3 dimensional it would say thats impossible... also if a 4 dimensional being told you of its existence... you would not comprehend and so it must be impossible

also 'blah blah' law of 'blah blah' and 'mr x's therot of XYZ' are just fancy words written by a man limited by what we know now.... Steven hawkings theory of black holes was THE hot thing 30 years ago... it was absolutely true.... but now he's turned around and said he was wrong

so anyway.

he was revived using one of Links faries that he keeps in a bottle...he caught it with a net....... and a bottle=]

#722
Solaris Paradox

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If decomposition is the reason you can't seem to suspend your disbelief, consider first that Shepard was frozen in space, and then probably frozen in cryo once his body was recovered. Is it literally possible? Maybe not. Fortunately, science-fiction fantasy needn't be. It's more believable than the asari, no matter how you slice it.

#723
Solaris Paradox

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Moiaussi wrote...

Zurcior wrote...

Shepard didn't "simply accept" Cerberus. There was an entire mission dedicated to Shepard finding out whether or not Cerberus was telling the truth about the Reapers kidnapping colonists.


So... you are trying to argue that he knew all that before getting on the shuttle? For all he knew, the mech 'malfunction' was a rescue attempt. The Alliance were independantly investigating anyway, hence the meeting with Ashley. He had no independant confirmation of anything at that point, not even of the date.


There are some things one can take at face value simply because someone lying about something that you can simply turn around as ask someone else about later is impractical. Cerberus wouldn't lie about Shepard having been in a coma for two years because the moment someone who wasn't Cerberus crossed paths with Shepard, Shepard need only say "What year is it?" and the cat jumps out of the bag to claw at someone's face. As for the hacked mechs, Jacob's assessment that it probably had to be an inside job is pretty basic logic to begin with--Shepard probably could have figured that much out himself.

...but the mission Zurcior is referring to is Freedom's Progress, not the Lazarus facility.

Modifié par Solaris Paradox, 07 septembre 2010 - 02:35 .


#724
smudboy

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Solaris Paradox wrote...

If decomposition is the reason you can't seem to suspend your disbelief, consider first that Shepard was frozen in space, and then probably frozen in cryo once his body was recovered. Is it literally possible? Maybe not. Fortunately, science-fiction fantasy needn't be. It's more believable than the asari, no matter how you slice it.


Let's start slicing then.
1. There is cryo-freezing (a la Purgatory.)  Hurtling through space with a rupture + death then smashing through an atmosphere, being flattened onto the planet: this is not cryo-freezing.
2. We can see, talk to and learn about the asari.  We can't see, talk to, or learn about how Sheaprd died, how Shepard was preserved, and how Shepard was brought back, in any clear, discernable, or scientific, detailed or literary-device using means.
3. It is completely unbelievable on those several levels and details thereof, as well as having a lack of exposition on those levels.  The best we get are random audio logs, blue fluid and glowing clamps.  (Jacob's description did more harm than good, it seems.)

#725
Solaris Paradox

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smudboy wrote...

Let's start slicing then.
1. There is cryo-freezing (a la Purgatory.)  Hurtling through space with a rupture + death then smashing through an atmosphere, being flattened onto the planet: this is not cryo-freezing.


Shepard didn't flatten on the planet or smash through an atmosphere. Not only would his body likely have been reduced to cinders, but the only injuries noted by Miranda's logs on the Lazarus facility come either from the explosion (i.e. the ship) or exposure to vacuum and sub-zero temperatures (i.e. being spaced). That the cutscene showing Shepard flying off into space doesn't fit with this is worth pointing out--it does look like he falls straight down onto the planet below. Would have been more consistent with what you see and learn later if he'd simply floated off into orbit, but I guess they though him falling toward the planet was more dramatic or something.

Bottom line is, space is cold. As a matter of coincidence, so is the planet they were orbiting at the time, if the Normandy Crash Site is anything to go by.

2. We can see, talk to and learn about the asari.  We can't see, talk to, or learn about how Sheaprd died, how Shepard was preserved, and how Shepard was brought back, in any clear, discernable, or scientific, detailed or literary-device using means.


The asari are hot blue human female-like aliens who resemble human females for no reason other than to have a race of hot blue human females. This is far from "scientific." The likelihood of such a thing even existing makes the likelihood of the Lazarus Project working seem like a triviality by comparison.

You're missing my point, though. I'm saying "It may not be possible, but in the context of the series you have plenty of room to suspend your disbelief." I'm not saying it's really possible; I'm saying it doesn't have to be to work for the purposes of the story. Science fiction is built on science that isn't real. The very concept of "mass effect" is one such example. That there might be a way to get a dead person living again hardly seems inappropriate for such a story;  asking for a technical explanation is pointless. Not only is it unrealistic to expect a technical explanation for a fictional science achievement that's intended to be fantastical in the first place, it would probably bore the crap out of people. So they say, "It took billions of dollars, two years, and we had to use cybernetics to get things moving at some point." It's enough. The only people who care about specifics beyond that are people who're determined to see holes in the story.

Modifié par Solaris Paradox, 07 septembre 2010 - 02:48 .