931 réponses à ce sujet

[Il Divo]

m14567 wrote...
I don't think what he said is that bad, if you focus on the message rather than the delivery.  What exactly was the point of Shepard dying? Is there any point to it? Is it just some way to reset Shepard? There is a video on youtube of some guy saying that they killed Shepard at the start as a way of showing the player that universe isn't safe. I seriously hope that is not why they did it.

Mass Effect 2's intro sets the tone for the rest of the game. In Mass Effect, we see Shepard operating in the spotlight; everyone knows he's the first human Spectre, he's with the Alliance/Council, etc. Point is that you're working with far more positive, accepted elements. Shepard's 2 year death completely changes this around. You go from saviour/Human Spectre to an absolute no one. You're forced to work with Cerberus (pretty much the opposite of the Council) and even all the locations you visit feel different. This isn't the Citadel where C-sec patrols every corner. You are now on Omega where a conversation can turn into a firefight in a second. Shepard's death leads into most of this.  You are not the figurehead you once were anymore.

[Whatever42]

It's hollywood writing. They are putting together a collection of great scenes, rather than telling a comprehenisve story. Look at the latest Star Trek movie. It had far more obvious, glaring holes than anything in mass effect yet people totally ignored them.



It does annoy me sometimes - often they could tell the story without plot inconsistencies. However, in hollywood writing, the attitude seems to be a dramatic cliff-hanger scene is worth the plot hole. The old 1950s serials were prime examples of that.



Of course, 99% of the game's audience is not going to nerd out on them but that 1% can be very vocal. Not that Bioware cares.



Far more problematic than any minor plot holes is the story pacing, which does drag half way through the game. I've read many other threads on this and I have to agree that the game seems to be written more like a weekly television series than a blockbuster movie. That's fine with me but they needed one or two more "episodes" that brought us back to the central plot to keep the tension up.



I find the plot hole about how Shep could have survived re-entry meaningless - the death scene was simply too dramatic in typical hollywood style. On the other hand, why a 3rd year starfleet academy student is appointed first officer of a starship and then made captain is beyond stupid (for me).

[The Big Nothing]

Who cares? It's simply a plot device used to make Commander Shepard indebted to Cerberus, as well as allow re-customization. Get over it. It's not like it's considered some meager feat in-game.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Bebbe777 wrote...

Its impossible to go to the moon because scientist said that 200 years ago. My God. Change reality ffs!

Dot.

[Dusty Everman]

I just want to give a comment about the Normandy SR-1 or Shepard burning up in the atmosphere.



We usually think of re-entry into an atmosphere as a massive event of heat and fire. This is due to the speeds of the object entering the atmosphere. Meteors fly in at amazing speeds. For example, the Leonid shooting stars hit the earth at more than 160000 mph. Space vessels and satellites orbit the earth at speeds from 6000 mph to 18000 mph. This is obviously much faster than terminal velocity, so the atmosphere slows down the object with a friction that generates the intense heat.



The Normandy wasn’t in orbit around that planet. After the combat that occurred, the ship was relatively at a standstill above the planet. The ship and Shepard did a free fall straight down into the planet (yep, orbit gives weightlessness, but if you aren’t in orbit and within the gravity well of a planet, there is gravity!).



I don’t have the time (or the knowledge of physics) to calculate just how fast the Normandy and Shepard would have been when they hit the thick of the atmosphere and were brought to terminal velocity. Maybe a physics-savy fanactic… err, I mean fan… could make some assumptions and do the math .

[Raxxman]

I'd also be interested in the level of scientific qualification of the people making the claims. A lot of what they have to do is not beyond the theory of modern science, and the critical point is the preservation of the brain relatively intact, which seems to be the case (you do find shepards helmet in once piece). While we couldn't bring someone back for life today, we A. don't have 200 years worth of technological advancement and B. Advanced alien technology at our disposal.



I myself have a PhD in tissue regeneration and coming up to 10 years experiance in the field, and while I think it might be scientifically impossible, it's certainly not scientifically implausable. IE I can just go with the flow, seeing as the game is full of impossible science anyhow, shepard being rebuilt isn't as far fetched as every intelligent race in the galaxy (bar the bugs and the jellyfish) having 4 limbs, 2 eyes (4 in one case) a head, ears and mouths.

[Kroesis-]

Dusty Everman wrote...
I don’t have the time (or the knowledge of physics) to calculate just how fast the Normandy and Shepard would have been when they hit the thick of the atmosphere and were brought to terminal velocity. Maybe a physics-savy fanactic… err, I mean fan… could make some assumptions and do the math .

Not sure about the speed upon hitting the atmosphere, but I'd say he hit the ground bloody fast. Not sure how much protection from what was left of his armour would give him but I doubt it'd be much. Hard ground is hard.

[Nightwriter]

So in other words, Shepard hit the atmosphere much more slowly than we are thinking when we say s/he should've burned up like a meteorite?

[Raxxman]

Kroesis- wrote...

Dusty Everman wrote...
I don’t have the time (or the knowledge of physics) to calculate just how fast the Normandy and Shepard would have been when they hit the thick of the atmosphere and were brought to terminal velocity. Maybe a physics-savy fanactic… err, I mean fan… could make some assumptions and do the math .

Not sure about the speed upon hitting the atmosphere, but I'd say he hit the ground bloody fast. Not sure how much protection from what was left of his armour would give him but I doubt it'd be much. Hard ground is hard.

yet http://www.freerepub...s/1071076/posts a man fell nearly 4 miles and lived to tell the tale http://www.dailymail...--survives.html guy hits the side of a mountain at nearly 100 mph and can now walk. Strange things do happen, Shepard could of hit lightly packed snow at the right angle.

[smudboy]

Dusty Everman wrote...

I just want to give a comment about the Normandy SR-1 or Shepard burning up in the atmosphere.

We usually think of re-entry into an atmosphere as a massive event of heat and fire. This is due to the speeds of the object entering the atmosphere. Meteors fly in at amazing speeds. For example, the Leonid shooting stars hit the earth at more than 160000 mph. Space vessels and satellites orbit the earth at speeds from 6000 mph to 18000 mph. This is obviously much faster than terminal velocity, so the atmosphere slows down the object with a friction that generates the intense heat.

The Normandy wasn’t in orbit around that planet. After the combat that occurred, the ship was relatively at a standstill above the planet. The ship and Shepard did a free fall straight down into the planet (yep, orbit gives weightlessness, but if you aren’t in orbit and within the gravity well of a planet, there is gravity!).

I don’t have the time (or the knowledge of physics) to calculate just how fast the Normandy and Shepard would have been when they hit the thick of the atmosphere and were brought to terminal velocity. Maybe a physics-savy fanactic… err, I mean fan… could make some assumptions and do the math .

http://social.biowar...93197/7#2709226

[Whatever42]

Nightwriter wrote...

So in other words, Shepard hit the atmosphere much more slowly than we are thinking when we say s/he should've burned up like a meteorite?

Makes sense. Normally, when we see an object re-enter, it's going much faster. Either its whipping around the planet at an orbital velocity of around 7km per second or its orbiting the sun or could be orbiting the sun, which if its earth's orbit would be around 30 km/s. That's pretty fast. No wonder you get objects smashing apart when hitting the atmosphere or burning up if coming in at an angled entry.

Meanwhile, the maximum freefall velocity of falling into earth's gravity well would be 60 m/s and that's not taking into accounting the resistance of the atmosphere. So I can see no entry burn.

[pprrff]

You can always reconstruct a physical state by retracing its evolution, on the condition that you can retrieve all the physical information of the system (momentum, energy blah blah). I was under the impression that everything ever happens leaves a 2-D imprint at the boundary of the universe. So in theory, yes, it is possible to reconstruct Shepard back to a state before he dies.

[Kroesis-]

Raxxman wrote...

Kroesis- wrote...
Not sure about the speed upon hitting the atmosphere, but I'd say he hit the ground bloody fast. Not sure how much protection from what was left of his armour would give him but I doubt it'd be much. Hard ground is hard.

 Strange things do happen, Shepard could of hit lightly packed snow at the right angle.

Can't deny that, but I believe in both cases the parachutists were both concious and weren't freefalling from the very top of the planets atmosphere. Obviously I don't have the distance of ground to top of the atmosphere and even if I did, I'm probably not going to be able to calculate speeds.

[smudboy]

pprrff wrote...

You can always reconstruct a physical state by retracing its evolution, on the condition that you can retrieve all the physical information of the system (momentum, energy blah blah). I was under the impression that everything ever happens leaves a 2-D imprint at the boundary of the universe. So in theory, yes, it is possible to reconstruct Shepard back to a state before he dies.

A physical state of matter?  Does matter evolve?  Or are you referring to locomotion of matter through space?

2D imprint?  Which 2 dimensions? (x&y? y&z? z&t?)  Why not a 3D, or 4D imprint (3 dimensions of space, and 1 of time?)  And how is any of this data, or "imprint", stored at the "boundary of the universe"?

How does any of that gibberish you just wrote...make any sense whatsoever?

[fivefingaslap18]

The answer is Shepard never came back to life, the Smoke Monster or what you would call The Man in Black took over his body.



They actually were on the Island when they picked his body up.

[Dusty Everman]

smudboy wrote...

http://social.biowar...93197/7#2709226

However Shepard is not starting at free fall, and we have to assume there are no other objects or air resistance stopping or slowing their descent.  Shepard's moving at the "Velocity Of Detonation", or whatever explosion pushed them into space.  Explosive forces range from 1800-10300m/s, but we'll just go with 5000m/s.  That's roughly 11,000 miles/h, in space.

Shepard instantly went from 0 mph to 11000 mph from the destruction of the cockpit?  The cockpit more breaks apart than explodes, and you see Shepard drift from it at maybe 20mph tops.  I'm no physicist, but this argument seems flawed to me.

[Whatever42]

Kroesis- wrote...

Raxxman wrote...

Kroesis- wrote...
Not sure about the speed upon hitting the atmosphere, but I'd say he hit the ground bloody fast. Not sure how much protection from what was left of his armour would give him but I doubt it'd be much. Hard ground is hard.

 Strange things do happen, Shepard could of hit lightly packed snow at the right angle.

Can't deny that, but I believe in both cases the parachutists were both concious and weren't freefalling from the very top of the planets atmosphere. Obviously I don't have the distance of ground to top of the atmosphere and even if I did, I'm probably not going to be able to calculate speeds.

You would achieve maximum velocity after about 15 seconds of freefall so it wouldn't matter if you were at the top of the atmosphere or jumping from a low flying aircraft.

Assuming Shep's suit had kinetic barriers, which is sufficient to re-direct some of the impact energy, its conceivable that his body wasn't a pile of goo.

[pprrff]

smudboy wrote...

pprrff wrote...

You can always reconstruct a physical state by retracing its evolution, on the condition that you can retrieve all the physical information of the system (momentum, energy blah blah). I was under the impression that everything ever happens leaves a 2-D imprint at the boundary of the universe. So in theory, yes, it is possible to reconstruct Shepard back to a state before he dies.

A physical state of matter?  Does matter evolve?  Or are you referring to locomotion of matter through space?

2D imprint?  Which 2 dimensions? (x&y? y&z? z&t?)  Why not a 3D, or 4D imprint (3 dimensions of space, and 1 of time?)  And how is any of this data, or "imprint", stored at the "boundary of the universe"?

How does any of that gibberish you just wrote...make any sense whatsoever?

oh you crack me up, i haven't laughed this hard in a while.

[Terraneaux]

smudboy wrote...

pprrff wrote...

You can always reconstruct a physical state by retracing its evolution, on the condition that you can retrieve all the physical information of the system (momentum, energy blah blah). I was under the impression that everything ever happens leaves a 2-D imprint at the boundary of the universe. So in theory, yes, it is possible to reconstruct Shepard back to a state before he dies.

A physical state of matter?  Does matter evolve?  Or are you referring to locomotion of matter through space?

2D imprint?  Which 2 dimensions? (x&y? y&z? z&t?)  Why not a 3D, or 4D imprint (3 dimensions of space, and 1 of time?)  And how is any of this data, or "imprint", stored at the "boundary of the universe"?

How does any of that gibberish you just wrote...make any sense whatsoever?

I think he's misunderstanding some ideas that we have about the universe, like if we knew the position and velocity of every particle in the universe at a given moment we should be able to use that data to 'rewind' the universe to every position in the past as well as go forward.  Quantum mechanics has some things to say about this, of course, and in any case it's only workable in a closed system, and not really applicable to what happens when a human body re-enters a planet's atmosphere.

[Beerfish]

As we know we have mass effect fields and light travel and understand them perfectly. Using the laws of physics and the things we know and accept today can easily just be swept away by a pen in science fiction and that is the beauty of the genre otherwise the genre might be called Science fact.

[Terraneaux]

Beerfish wrote...

As we know we have mass effect fields and light travel and understand them perfectly. Using the laws of physics and the things we know and accept today can easily just be swept away by a pen in science fiction and that is the beauty of the genre otherwise the genre might be called Science fact.

No, that in fact makes it space fantasy, not science fiction.

[pprrff]

Terraneaux wrote...

smudboy wrote...

pprrff wrote...

You can always reconstruct a physical state by retracing its evolution, on the condition that you can retrieve all the physical information of the system (momentum, energy blah blah). I was under the impression that everything ever happens leaves a 2-D imprint at the boundary of the universe. So in theory, yes, it is possible to reconstruct Shepard back to a state before he dies.

A physical state of matter?  Does matter evolve?  Or are you referring to locomotion of matter through space?

2D imprint?  Which 2 dimensions? (x&y? y&z? z&t?)  Why not a 3D, or 4D imprint (3 dimensions of space, and 1 of time?)  And how is any of this data, or "imprint", stored at the "boundary of the universe"?

How does any of that gibberish you just wrote...make any sense whatsoever?

I think he's misunderstanding some ideas that we have about the universe, like if we knew the position and velocity of every particle in the universe at a given moment we should be able to use that data to 'rewind' the universe to every position in the past as well as go forward.  Quantum mechanics has some things to say about this, of course, and in any case it's only workable in a closed system, and not really applicable to what happens when a human body re-enters a planet's atmosphere.

Maybe we don't need for every one of Shepard's electron to be reversed to exact quantum state, anyway I am just formulating some theory into which Bioware can insert their plot device.

@smudboy, the 2D imprint refers to the holographic representation of the universe at its boundary.

[Raxxman]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Kroesis- wrote...

Raxxman wrote...

Kroesis- wrote...
Not sure about the speed upon hitting the atmosphere, but I'd say he hit the ground bloody fast. Not sure how much protection from what was left of his armour would give him but I doubt it'd be much. Hard ground is hard.

 Strange things do happen, Shepard could of hit lightly packed snow at the right angle.

Can't deny that, but I believe in both cases the parachutists were both concious and weren't freefalling from the very top of the planets atmosphere. Obviously I don't have the distance of ground to top of the atmosphere and even if I did, I'm probably not going to be able to calculate speeds.

You would achieve maximum velocity after about 15 seconds of freefall so it wouldn't matter if you were at the top of the atmosphere or jumping from a low flying aircraft.

Assuming Shep's suit had kinetic barriers, which is sufficient to re-direct some of the impact energy, its conceivable that his body wasn't a pile of goo.

And

"He remembered tumbling," Jenkins said. But at that altitude, Magee
quickly lost consciousness.

The first guy was unconscious, didn't have the genetic mods that Shepard had, didn't have the state of the art armour with kinetic barriers Shepard had, and unlike Shepard, survived the crash.

It's just not impossible that Shepard survived the crash relatively intact., improbable, but then again meeting up with your entire old crew and a half dozen people you previously helped on different planets out of thousands of planets and billions upon billions of lives is improbable too.

[Terraneaux]

pprrff wrote...

Maybe we don't need for every one of Shepard's electron to be reversed to exact quantum state, anyway I am just formulating some theory into which Bioware can insert their plot device.

@smudboy, the 2D imprint refers to the holographic representation of the universe at its boundary.

They should have just had Shep be stranded in space.  It would have been much more tolerable.