931 réponses à ce sujet

[Moiaussi]

You are still missing an important aspect to this. With this as precident, anyone who died in ME2 could be brought back to life. Even if the corpse was left behind on the collector station and it was blown, the corpse could still have ended up adrift and recovered, or there could even be a 'backup copy' back at Cerberus HQ.



This is why ressurrection is cheesy from a literary standpoint. It is an easy out, a saved game in an ongoing story.

[DPSSOC]

Moiaussi wrote...

You are still missing an important aspect to this. With this as precident, anyone who died in ME2 could be brought back to life.  Even if the corpse was left behind on the collector station and it was blown, the corpse could still have ended up adrift and recovered, or there could even be a 'backup copy' back at Cerberus HQ.

A "backup copy"?  Like a clone or what.

Moiaussi wrote...
This is why ressurrection is cheesy from a literary standpoint. It is an easy out, a saved game in an ongoing story.

Actually I feel Bioware handled it well because 1) This was an iffy proposition even with a relatively complete corpse and 2) it is ridiculously (read prohibitively) expensive.  Also they can always pull the negative side-effects card with something along the lines of the tech used to revive him being more of a delaying tactic and only meant to give him a couple years before it craps out.

Generally I agree ressurrection isn't exactly the best plot device but I think Bioware's handled it alright so far.

[DannyT18]

I think the reason bioware bought him back is because it was a game, and it was cool.



In games you can do anything.

[Solaris Paradox]

Moiaussi wrote...

You are still missing an important aspect to this. With this as precident, anyone who died in ME2 could be brought back to life. Even if the corpse was left behind on the collector station and it was blown, the corpse could still have ended up adrift and recovered, or there could even be a 'backup copy' back at Cerberus HQ.

Anyone could be brought back, yes. Nobody but Shepard would be important enough to Cerberus for it to be done, and only Cerberus has the resources *and* the knowhow to do so in any case. And you can bet your boots none of the other organizations in the galaxy would bother even with bringing Shepard back.

That it's theoretically possible doesn't automatically mean it would happen. They took great pains to emphasize that just bringing back one man was an expensive pain in the ass; they're not going to do that for just anybody.

This is why ressurrection is cheesy from a literary standpoint. It is an easy out, a saved game in an ongoing story.

Shepard's revival wasn't an "easy out," though.

[Solaris Paradox]

DPSSOC wrote...

A "backup copy"?  Like a clone or what.

That was one possibility that the Lazarus Project was designed to avoid. Cloning wasn't an option, they wanted to bring Shepard back "exactly as he was." Unlike, you know, Starkiller 2.0.

[smudboy]

Solaris Paradox wrote...
Shepard didn't flatten on the planet or smash through an atmosphere.

Which is a major problem considering what we were shown, our understanding of physics, and the lack of exposition concerning the events and effects that involved their death.

Not only would his body likely have been reduced to cinders, but the only injuries noted by Miranda's logs on the Lazarus facility come either from the explosion (i.e. the ship) or exposure to vacuum and sub-zero temperatures (i.e. being spaced). That the cutscene showing Shepard flying off into space doesn't fit with this is worth pointing out--it does look like he falls straight down onto the planet below. Would have been more consistent with what you see and learn later if he'd simply floated off into orbit, but I guess they though him falling toward the planet was more dramatic or something.

Bottom line is, space is cold. As a matter of coincidence, so is the planet they were orbiting at the time, if the Normandy Crash Site is anything to go by.

Space is quite cold: the issue is how that lack of heat is transferable (instead, of depressurization of ones skin, crystalization of ones lungs; how after magically not being atmoized upon surviving re-entry and impact, traveling 1000's mph, their helmet is merely damaged and their armor blown off for Legion to pick up.

2. We can see, talk to and learn about the asari.  We can't see, talk to, or learn about how Sheaprd died, how Shepard was preserved, and how Shepard was brought back, in any clear, discernable, or scientific, detailed or literary-device using means.

The asari are hot blue human female-like aliens who resemble human females for no reason other than to have a race of hot blue human females. This is far from "scientific." The likelihood of such a thing even existing makes the likelihood of the Lazarus Project working seem like a triviality by comparison.

If the writer tells me "there is a hot blue female like alien", this is their imagination creating something in the story.  They are describing the community of interstellar species.  It is the fiction, fantastical or otherwise.

This is not an issue of real world probabilities.  This is where we get the science-fiction: aliens.  It doesn't matter if they were ugly green male like aliens: we are shown, described, and given history surrounding the existence of such things.  There's a whole bunch of them.  We still don't know how exactly they procreate: they are indeed a mystery.

In the same token, I do not care that Shepard is resurrected: I care about the lack of exposition of it, how the story told us about it, and the content and manner of which was and was not shown and told (death, impact, preservation, and then resurrection), because we know a few things about physics, what happens to the  body in certain conditions, and things falling from the sky.  When things don't add up, we need answers.

We do not know about this amazing species called the Asari.  The narrative filled in the basics.

We do know quite a few things about phsyics, medicine, anatomy, the human condition, etc.  Anyone writing any basic story about the resurrecting a man needs to first give all critics and specialists (doctors, scientists, etc.) enough explanation, whether scientific or literary, on how this could be possible.  There are dozens of ways.  ME2 didn't even care to cover any area, and instead copped out for completely false explanations (Miranda's sub-zero comment, Jacob's insane description.)

You're missing my point, though. I'm saying "It may not be possible, but in the context of the series you have plenty of room to suspend your disbelief."

What context is this?  We are shown and told of things which would be impossible considering the outcome.
1) We need to know how Shepard died.
2) We need to know how Shepard was preserved.
3) We need to know how Shepard was resurrected.

It doesn't have to be 100% scientific with complete detail.  The writer can invent reasonable science-fiction that the general audience can buy.  For example, wtf was all that blue glowing liquid?  How about those glowing clamps?  I sure as hell bet they were integral to resurrecting Shepard, but that's just one small part of 1/3rd of the impossible puzzle they're shoving down our throats: because we need to shoot things now.

Solution: exposition.  Miranda, TIM or Wilson explainig the events of death, preservation and resurrection; the devices and methods used to bring Shepard back; the magical technology the sci-fi has shown us (hyposprays, artificial brain tissue, cyber-blood, etc.)

I'm not saying it's really possible; I'm saying it doesn't have to be to work for the purposes of the story. Science fiction is built on science that isn't real.

Of course it's not really possible, it's fiction.  That's not the point.  Fiction or no, we still have to buy what the writer/work is selling.  There is no means to do so here, with so many questions and not enough showing and telling of things.

The very concept of "mass effect" is one such example. That there might be a way to get a dead person living again hardly seems inappropriate for such a story;  asking for a technical explanation is pointless.

No it's not.  ME fields are common.  Like electricity, I can conduct an experiment in electricity.  In ME, you've got biotics and ships traveling through Mass Relays.  It's part of the mythos.

Resurrection is not.  There is no Resurrection Technique everyone's familiar with, no machine, no device that can bring people back from the dead, no scientist or body of knowledge that deals with this (Resurrectionism, etc.)  Compare this to fantasy where the living dead is commonplace; it's no big deal.  Well, this is a big deal, because they went the scientific miracle route, instead of through easier, literary means.  Plus, it's still just 1/3rd of the effort they need to provide exposition on, and boy is it going to be a big one..  They still have to show and tell how Shepard died, and how Shepard was preserved.

Not only is it unrealistic to expect a technical explanation for a fictional science achievement that's intended to be fantastical in the first place, it would probably bore the crap out of people.

I agree: but that's what they're selling.  We're simply not buying it.  There are many, many ways to go around fantastical events through science fiction.  They simply didn't make the effort to do even a half-assed job.

So they say, "It took billions of dollars, two years, and we had to use cybernetics to get things moving at some point." It's enough. The only people who care about specifics beyond that are people who're determined to see holes in the story.

It's not enough.  Not even close.

The people who care like stories, or are simply intelligent enough to know they're being pulled a fast one.  They like things to flow clearly, and make sense.  Especially when you've got a Jesus character popping up in a sci-fi universe, and no one gives a flying crap: not the characters, not the character being resurrected, and definitely not the storyteller to give us a proper understanding of what the hell is going on.

[Moiaussi]

DPSSOC wrote...

A "backup copy"?  Like a clone or what.

When the majority of tissue is replaced, including the brain, what is the difference between Shepard and a clone of Shepard? The new living cells certainly aren't original. The cybernetics are even less original.

Even from a saved game, Shep's appearance can change completely (at the player's option, but nevertheless).

Actually I feel Bioware handled it well because 1) This was an iffy proposition even with a relatively complete corpse and 2) it is ridiculously (read prohibitively) expensive.  Also they can always pull the negative side-effects card with something along the lines of the tech used to revive him being more of a delaying tactic and only meant to give him a couple years before it craps out.

Generally I agree ressurrection isn't exactly the best plot device but I think Bioware's handled it alright so far.

The 'first time' for such a procedure is always very expensive. The base should have been completely salvageable. The data definately so.

Shepard didn't 'almost not make it back', he made it back so well he was able to go straight from being bed ridden for an extended period of time right into battle. If you know anything about medicine you would realize that normally muscles need to re-learn how to do things. Strength needs to be built back up because the muscles are not used to carrying your weight any more. So... what was so 'iffy' about it? Any deaths on the Normandy have no appearant head damage at all, and with fresh corpses that could be put straight into suspension, i.e. all in *much* better condition than Shep was.

They could pull the 'this body will self destruct in ... ' shtick, but then how does he pass all the medical scans? Also that bit is arguably even more cheesy than ressurrection unless there was a deliberate timed virus or something, which given TIM has no way of knowing how long stopping the reavers would take....

It was a completely arbitrary, cheesy plot device.

[Moiaussi]

Solaris Paradox wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

A "backup copy"?  Like a clone or what.

That was one possibility that the Lazarus Project was designed to avoid. Cloning wasn't an option, they wanted to bring Shepard back "exactly as he was." Unlike, you know, Starkiller 2.0.

A perfect clone would be one with identical thought proccesses. If you can copy the brain patterns (which somehow must have been done to accomplish the ressurrection), you could implant them in a new identical brain.

It is interesting though that the codex states that even if an AI transfers its program to a different theoretical proccessor, its personality and thought processes change due to quantum differences, however in Shepard's case, they some how regrew the brain identically, right down to the quantum level. If they can do that, they could use cells from Shepard to do the same with other bodies too.

The alternative is that Shepard's corpse miraculously had all the 'important' bits salvageable, which isn't even hinted at. His corpse was described as 'meat' ... there was no 'boy you were lucky Shep, somehow through all that your brain stayed intact and perfectly preserved.'

[Moiaussi]

Solaris Paradox wrote...

The asari are hot blue human female-like aliens who resemble human females for no reason other than to have a race of hot blue human females. This is far from "scientific." The likelihood of such a thing even existing makes the likelihood of the Lazarus Project working seem like a triviality by comparison.

Is there something about Asari physiology that make them actually impossible rather than implausable? Humanity itself is implausable, yet here we are. What part of a bipedal form, or similar-to human body type are so impractical that Asari are unbelieveable? Isn't the chance of any given form similarly unlikely?

Ressurection on the other hand is another matter. There are a LOT more issues involved (in particular regrowing the brain with identical brain chemistry, right down to the quantum level).

[will0220]

Ksandor wrote...

You can't bring Shepard back from dead -- it is impossible.

If you are brain dead your neurons and neural pathways and protein based memory molecules decompose. Since nobody knows what protein based memories and neural pathways Shepard had in life reconstructing them is impossible (you can't reconstruct memories and the personality).

Besides quantum mechanics says 100% reproduction is impossible. Especially when it comes to a complex system like a thinking brain. Unless there was some sort of hibernation mechanism in Shepard's suit reviving a brain dead person is impossible.

If I were Bioware I would create circumstances where Shepard's brain could be salvaged more or less intact. At least they did not clearly state that Shepard fell to the planet. No "body" can survive that. Simple impact would pulverize the body even if the atmosphere does not contain oxygen so the body would not burn. Maybe Shepard's body was in orbit and his body suit's emergency systems preserved him to some degree. Any specifics about this in Redemption comic?

The solution would be to imply that Shepard's body recovered from orbit and the suit protected him from extreme decomposition -- especially an emergency mechanism which protected his brain. This would not directly conflict with Jacob when he said Shepard was dead as dead can be and Miranda when he summarizes the extensive damage Shepard suffered. If your brain is preserved bringing you back from dead should be possible with future tech.

I wish they just said that Shepard was in comma for 2 years. That was the most plausible solution but Bioware wanted to scandalize audience with this flashy death idea so instead they have chosen this Hollywood no brainer. They should retcon this without conflicting Mass Effect 2.

It's science FICTION.  There's a lot of stuff in the ME universe that probably won't ever happen, but in the name of entertainment and awesomeness, just let it slide.  If it bothers you that much, try to stay away from anything that has fiction in the name of the genre.

[Moiaussi]

will0220 wrote...

It's science FICTION.  There's a lot of stuff in the ME universe that probably won't ever happen, but in the name of entertainment and awesomeness, just let it slide.  If it bothers you that much, try to stay away from anything that has fiction in the name of the genre.

For the Nth time the objection is not just that it is fiction but that it is bad fiction. Good science fiction and even fantasy need internal consistancy or else the story is harder not so much to believe (because belief can be suspended), but to believe in.

Plot devices that are conveniently, nonsensically inexplicably treated as impossible to reproduce, but not treated as luck or accidental, that contradict other parts of the story (particularly parts regarding Geth and AI's, which one would thing would be much easier to 'ressurrect') are not good writing.

[Zurcior]

Moiaussi wrote...

Zurcior wrote...

Shepard didn't "simply accept" Cerberus. There was an entire mission dedicated to Shepard finding out whether or not Cerberus was telling the truth about the Reapers kidnapping colonists.

So... you are trying to argue that he knew all that before getting on the shuttle? For all he knew, the mech 'malfunction' was a rescue attempt. The Alliance were independantly investigating anyway, hence the meeting with Ashley. He had no independant confirmation of anything at that point, not even of the date.

I'm talking about Freedom's Progress, or have you forgotten? Anderson doesn't tell you the truth until after Horizon. There was nothing to suggest the mechs were sabotaged until you meet Wilson. There weren't any Alliance ships around the Cerberus facility anyhow. What would make Shep think they were trying to rescue him, exspecially since they think he's dead? Don't you remember the Paragon Speech?: "I don't care what he(Illusive Man) has to say, I'm not working with terrorist" He changes his mind after Freedom's Progress.

[Tommy6860]

Ksandor wrote...

You can't bring Shepard back from dead -- it is impossible.

If you are brain dead your neurons and neural pathways and protein based memory molecules decompose. Since nobody knows what protein based memories and neural pathways Shepard had in life reconstructing them is impossible (you can't reconstruct memories and the personality).

Besides quantum mechanics says 100% reproduction is impossible. Especially when it comes to a complex system like a thinking brain. Unless there was some sort of hibernation mechanism in Shepard's suit reviving a brain dead person is impossible.

If I were Bioware I would create circumstances where Shepard's brain could be salvaged more or less intact. At least they did not clearly state that Shepard fell to the planet. No "body" can survive that. Simple impact would pulverize the body even if the atmosphere does not contain oxygen so the body would not burn. Maybe Shepard's body was in orbit and his body suit's emergency systems preserved him to some degree. Any specifics about this in Redemption comic?

The solution would be to imply that Shepard's body recovered from orbit and the suit protected him from extreme decomposition -- especially an emergency mechanism which protected his brain. This would not directly conflict with Jacob when he said Shepard was dead as dead can be and Miranda when he summarizes the extensive damage Shepard suffered. If your brain is preserved bringing you back from dead should be possible with future tech.

I wish they just said that Shepard was in comma for 2 years. That was the most plausible solution but Bioware wanted to scandalize audience with this flashy death idea so instead they have chosen this Hollywood no brainer. They should retcon this without conflicting Mass Effect 2.

Maybe they used mnemonics, or that isn't a possiblity as well, right?

[Lucien_Diva]

Moiaussi wrote...

...

Plot devices that are conveniently, nonsensically inexplicably treated as impossible to reproduce, but not treated as luck or accidental, that contradict other parts of the story (particularly parts regarding Geth and AI's, which one would thing would be much easier to 'ressurrect') are not good writing.

I think the technical phrase for this phenomenon is an "a**-pull."

Speaking personally, while my willing suspension of disbelief may have been dented a little by this, it recovered admirably and moved on... 

[Zurcior]

Moiaussi wrote...

Archereon wrote...

In D&D and many RPGs they are.  The simple fact is, making death cheap in a series is a bad move unless its a major plot point (death being easy to circumnagivate).  I was simply listing examples for a guy who asked me to procure an example of poorly done ressurection besides comic books.

Ah... actually though you seemed to be bringing up examples where it is used relatively well. In the case of Optimus it was partly to give the show a new direction (Rodimus was 'younger' and less serious than Optimus, and partly to show tragedy, but the ressurrection both worked and was consistant with the rest of the setting.

In the case of fantasy and some science fiction, it is often a central theme. In Narnia, Aslan's return is meant to be an analogy to that of Christ. The series was meant as Christian metaphor. That analogy is used many other times ressurection is used, often poorly, but also often well.

In Riverworld, it was a central theme to the books. The whole concept of famous people coming back, and repeatedly, was the main thread of the series.

In Doctor Who it is likewise a central theme for the main character, one of serial re-incarnation. His arch-nemesis, the Master, has similar. Some of the other foes have been brought back from the dead in various ways, at the most extreme including the complete re-writing of history. Again, though, that is consistant with the show's central theme of issues regarding time travel.

The problem with ME2 is that it is not consistant and brings up a lot of issues, including 'if they can re-create any given adult in two years or less, what is so great about the Krogan?'

If they can copy minds like that or recreate/rebuild them, why are there still messy interrogation techniques like torture?

Why is it when Shep dies despite his companions being healthy and able to win/recover his non-planet fallen theoretically much easier to put back together body, it is game over?

We already have the issue that the Council are unwilling to even consider Shep offering a voluntary mental interrogation at the hands of the Asari..... this just compounds that a thousandfold.

 What makes a krogan so great? How about being able to survive what all humans would consider a death warrant, and do so without the help of a project that cost billions of credits?

Wrex: Ah, the benefits of a redundent nervous system.
Shepard: Yeah, humans don't have that.
Wrex:Hmm, then it must have been painful.

 You are making the mistake of assuming that the Lazarus Project will always "take". Think about today; we have defibrilators that can make a heart start to beat again. Unfortunately, it doesn't always work. If it did, the mortality rate would be much lower. Maybe it's game over because the Lazuras Project probably won't work a second time. Or maybe it's game over because Sheps dead body is in enemy territory? 
 
 Also, the reason that Shep doesn't just mind-meld with an Asari is because of this: 
 Asari Counciler: "We believe that YOU believe them, but that doesn't make it true". A mind-meld would only confirm the council's suspicions that Shepard is mentally unstable. Just listen to the Turian Councier

[Moiaussi]

Zurcior wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Zurcior wrote...

Shepard didn't "simply accept" Cerberus. There was an entire mission dedicated to Shepard finding out whether or not Cerberus was telling the truth about the Reapers kidnapping colonists.

So... you are trying to argue that he knew all that before getting on the shuttle? For all he knew, the mech 'malfunction' was a rescue attempt. The Alliance were independantly investigating anyway, hence the meeting with Ashley. He had no independant confirmation of anything at that point, not even of the date.

I'm talking about Freedom's Progress, or have you forgotten? Anderson doesn't tell you the truth until after Horizon. There was nothing to suggest the mechs were sabotaged until you meet Wilson. There weren't any Alliance ships around the Cerberus facility anyhow. What would make Shep think they were trying to rescue him, exspecially since they think he's dead? Don't you remember the Paragon Speech?: "I don't care what he(Illusive Man) has to say, I'm not working with terrorist" He changes his mind after Freedom's Progress.

1) Shep starts following Cerberus orders before he even knows about Freedom's Progress. He is told by Cerberus agents to get on their shuttle and he says 'o tay' and gets on the shuttle. Despite the fact that we know from various interrupts he could take down two people suddenly when he wants to, he could have taken Jacob and Miranda down and Commandeered the shuttle.

2) The mechs were attacking the facility. We never do find out conclusively why. Shepard didn't seem to care and seemed to simply accept the concept that a traitor to Cerberus was therefore somehow definately his enemy too. The point isn't that Shepard should have thought it was a rescue, but that he never even considered the possibility, nor did he try to find out other than by asking the Cerberus agents.

3) Similarly how would he know if there were alliance ships there or not? For all we know, there were and the shuttle evaded them. It is not like Shepard cared to look at the scanner, or was allowed any transmissions, or even looked out a window. He just went along with what he was told blindly.

If you think Shepard acted reasonably, would you like to buy this deed? It is for a major bridge in NY state....

[Moiaussi]

Zurcior wrote...

What makes a krogan so great? How about being able to survive what all humans would consider a death warrant, and do so without the help of a project that cost billions of credits?

Wrex: Ah, the benefits of a redundent nervous system.
Shepard: Yeah, humans don't have that.
Wrex:Hmm, then it must have been painful.

 You are making the mistake of assuming that the Lazarus Project will always "take". Think about today; we have defibrilators that can make a heart start to beat again. Unfortunately, it doesn't always work. If it did, the mortality rate would be much lower. Maybe it's game over because the Lazuras Project probably won't work a second time. Or maybe it's game over because Sheps dead body is in enemy territory? 

It is NEVER presented as a longshot, or as something that 'almost didn't work' or as something that was hit or miss. It is also unclear what all the expenses went to. The facilities should have been recoverable (especially if they had stayed instead of running from a few seemingly easier than normal to kill security mechs).

Wrex's opinion means absolutely nothing, given that he is neither a doctor nor any sort of scientist, nor does he have any knowledge of lazerus.

 
 Also, the reason that Shep doesn't just mind-meld with an Asari is because of this: 
 Asari Counciler: "We believe that YOU believe them, but that doesn't make it true". A mind-meld would only confirm the council's suspicions that Shepard is mentally unstable. Just listen to the Turian Councier

Except that they find another prothean beacon, just like the one destroyed on Eden and the one destroyed on Vermire, but NOT destroyed and intact and functional. Also it is more than just the beacon information floating around in Shep's head ... the codex information, which gives him the working knowledge of the prothean language is in there too. They figure that is just delusion too, even though it WORKS?

[Zurcior]

Moiaussi wrote...

Zurcior wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Zurcior wrote...

Shepard didn't "simply accept" Cerberus. There was an entire mission dedicated to Shepard finding out whether or not Cerberus was telling the truth about the Reapers kidnapping colonists.

So... you are trying to argue that he knew all that before getting on the shuttle? For all he knew, the mech 'malfunction' was a rescue attempt. The Alliance were independantly investigating anyway, hence the meeting with Ashley. He had no independant confirmation of anything at that point, not even of the date.

I'm talking about Freedom's Progress, or have you forgotten? Anderson doesn't tell you the truth until after Horizon. There was nothing to suggest the mechs were sabotaged until you meet Wilson. There weren't any Alliance ships around the Cerberus facility anyhow. What would make Shep think they were trying to rescue him, exspecially since they think he's dead? Don't you remember the Paragon Speech?: "I don't care what he(Illusive Man) has to say, I'm not working with terrorist" He changes his mind after Freedom's Progress.

1) Shep starts following Cerberus orders before he even knows about Freedom's Progress. He is told by Cerberus agents to get on their shuttle and he says 'o tay' and gets on the shuttle. Despite the fact that we know from various interrupts he could take down two people suddenly when he wants to, he could have taken Jacob and Miranda down and Commandeered the shuttle.

2) The mechs were attacking the facility. We never do find out conclusively why. Shepard didn't seem to care and seemed to simply accept the concept that a traitor to Cerberus was therefore somehow definately his enemy too. The point isn't that Shepard should have thought it was a rescue, but that he never even considered the possibility, nor did he try to find out other than by asking the Cerberus agents.

3) Similarly how would he know if there were alliance ships there or not? For all we know, there were and the shuttle evaded them. It is not like Shepard cared to look at the scanner, or was allowed any transmissions, or even looked out a window. He just went along with what he was told blindly.

If you think Shepard acted reasonably, would you like to buy this deed? It is for a major bridge in NY state....

 You are truely an idiot of the highest caliber.

 1. If Shepard had gunned down Miranda and Jacob right there, then it is already game over. Seeing as it is through those event's on Freedom's Progress that the Collector threat is identified and later on dealt with.

 2. Why would the Alliance rely on mechs to rescue Shepard? Even if they did, why would they program the mechs to kill Shepard if it is a rescue mission? Or do you not remember being shot at? No way in hell would anybody think getting shot at is a sign of getting rescued.

 3. Your saying a lone shuttle can manage to escape military ships? Without noticing them?

 Please, keep posting. We would all like to witness your stupidity.

[Zurcior]

Moiaussi wrote...

Zurcior wrote...

What makes a krogan so great? How about being able to survive what all humans would consider a death warrant, and do so without the help of a project that cost billions of credits?

Wrex: Ah, the benefits of a redundent nervous system.
Shepard: Yeah, humans don't have that.
Wrex:Hmm, then it must have been painful.

 You are making the mistake of assuming that the Lazarus Project will always "take". Think about today; we have defibrilators that can make a heart start to beat again. Unfortunately, it doesn't always work. If it did, the mortality rate would be much lower. Maybe it's game over because the Lazuras Project probably won't work a second time. Or maybe it's game over because Sheps dead body is in enemy territory? 

It is NEVER presented as a longshot, or as something that 'almost didn't work' or as something that was hit or miss. It is also unclear what all the expenses went to. The facilities should have been recoverable (especially if they had stayed instead of running from a few seemingly easier than normal to kill security mechs).

Wrex's opinion means absolutely nothing, given that he is neither a doctor nor any sort of scientist, nor does he have any knowledge of lazerus.

 
 Also, the reason that Shep doesn't just mind-meld with an Asari is because of this: 
 Asari Counciler: "We believe that YOU believe them, but that doesn't make it true". A mind-meld would only confirm the council's suspicions that Shepard is mentally unstable. Just listen to the Turian Councier

Except that they find another prothean beacon, just like the one destroyed on Eden and the one destroyed on Vermire, but NOT destroyed and intact and functional. Also it is more than just the beacon information floating around in Shep's head ... the codex information, which gives him the working knowledge of the prothean language is in there too. They figure that is just delusion too, even though it WORKS?

 It was presented as a longshot. Medical science doesn't alway produce absolute results.
 
I wasn't talking about Wrex's knowledge of science or the Lazrus Prject. I was talking about Krogan adaptability and suvivability. Pay attention.

 The facility was compromized. Who ever made Wilson turn obviously knew where the facility was.

 What makes you think the Council would know a damn thing about the Prothean language? The entire galaxy knows as little about the prothean race as they know about the reapers. Hell, even Liara didn't know the language and she spent decades researching them. Are you forgetting Shepard found that beacan AFTER his meeting with the council?

 Again, continue with your ignorance to basic ME story and lore. And please, continue with your half-baked assumptions.

[Moiaussi]

Zurcior wrote...

You are truely an idiot of the highest caliber.

 1. If Shepard had gunned down Miranda and Jacob right there, then it is already game over. Seeing as it is through those event's on Freedom's Progress that the Collector threat is identified and later on dealt with.

 2. Why would the Alliance rely on mechs to rescue Shepard? Even if they did, why would they program the mechs to kill Shepard if it is a rescue mission? Or do you not remember being shot at? No way in hell would anybody think getting shot at is a sign of getting rescued.

 3. Your saying a lone shuttle can manage to escape military ships? Without noticing them?

 Please, keep posting. We would all like to witness your stupidity.

1) Riiiiiiight.... so Shepard should trust everyone just in case he learns of a reason to later? Not to mention it is hardly a given that it would have been 'game over.' What information did TIM have that the Alliance didn't already suspect? The Alliance was likewise investigating disappearances and could just as easily have sent Shep right back out to Freedom's Progress. It was an obvious starting point no matter who Shep talked to, being the most recent colony to disappear.

2) They would use what was available. It might not have been the alliance. It could have been his SR-1 crew members. Tali could easily have managed that, possiblly even without having to enter the station. Garrus might have been able to as well, and they would not have programmed the mechs to kill shep, but just to 'rebel.'

The station could also have been attacked by forces Shep considered friendly without having any clue he was there. The point is HE HAD NO CLUE.

3) It is small, agile, and could have stayed in the shadow of the station long enough to disengage. Once in FTL it could not be tracked or touched. Unlikely as it sounds, it may simply have been overlooked. The collector vessel conveniently ignored the lifepods from the Normandy....

[smudboy]

Zurcior wrote...
1. If Shepard had gunned down Miranda and Jacob right there, then it is already game over. Seeing as it is through those event's on Freedom's Progress that the Collector threat is identified and later on dealt with.

In what context?

[Moiaussi]

Zurcior wrote...

It was presented as a longshot. Medical science doesn't alway produce absolute results.

If it was a long shot, the worry that Shep might have been even marginally different would not have been such a concern. Not to mention comments along the lines of 'it better have worked given the resources we put into this'
 

I wasn't talking about Wrex's knowledge of science or the Lazrus Prject. I was talking about Krogan adaptability and suvivability. Pay attention.

Here's an idea.. why don't you pay attention and don't take concepts out of context. If humans can be 'mass produced', even if it takes two years each (given they can choose precisely which humans), then humans gain a different kind of survivability comperable to the Krogan.

 The facility was compromized. Who ever made Wilson turn obviously knew where the facility was.

Yes, and for all Shep knew it could have been an Alliance or Spectre or STG operation. He never bothered to even try to find out. They could have just been after a Cerberus base, but that would not have meant they weren't allies.

 What makes you think the Council would know a damn thing about the Prothean language? The entire galaxy knows as little about the prothean race as they know about the reapers. Hell, even Liara didn't know the language and she spent decades researching them. Are you forgetting Shepard found that beacan AFTER his meeting with the council?

Please listen. IF THEY USE A BEACON, AND GET THE KEY FROM SHEPARD, THEY WOULD KNOW THE LANGUAGE. As for when he met with the council, THAT DEPENDS ON WHEN HE GOES TO THE CITADEL. It is not neccessarily after, and regardless, he can go back. Sheesh.. OMG, I didn't have enough evidence if he meets the councill early, so may as well burn /ignore all subsequent evidence? Regardless of the threat level of the reapers, the fleet strength of the Alliance/council or even just the thought of clearing your name?

 Again, continue with your ignorance to basic ME story and lore. And please, continue with your half-baked assumptions.

It is not my ignorance so much as your inventing lore that does not exist and/or disregarding any lore that is inconvenient to your arguement.

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

honestly I found it believable enough when I remembered that kinetic barriers and shields protect against EVERYTHING in ME2...

[Moiaussi]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

honestly I found it believable enough when I remembered that kinetic barriers and shields protect against EVERYTHING in ME2...

They are called kinetic barriers, but there could easily be other aspects to them added since their invention. It also depends on precisely how they work. A wall is a 'kinetic barrier', but still blocks light. They could 'harden up' against any electomagnetic energy over a certain energy level....

[Zurcior]

Moiaussi wrote...

Zurcior wrote...

You are truely an idiot of the highest caliber.

 1. If Shepard had gunned down Miranda and Jacob right there, then it is already game over. Seeing as it is through those event's on Freedom's Progress that the Collector threat is identified and later on dealt with.

 2. Why would the Alliance rely on mechs to rescue Shepard? Even if they did, why would they program the mechs to kill Shepard if it is a rescue mission? Or do you not remember being shot at? No way in hell would anybody think getting shot at is a sign of getting rescued.

 3. Your saying a lone shuttle can manage to escape military ships? Without noticing them?

 Please, keep posting. We would all like to witness your stupidity.

1) Riiiiiiight.... so Shepard should trust everyone just in case he learns of a reason to later? Not to mention it is hardly a given that it would have been 'game over.' What information did TIM have that the Alliance didn't already suspect? The Alliance was likewise investigating disappearances and could just as easily have sent Shep right back out to Freedom's Progress. It was an obvious starting point no matter who Shep talked to, being the most recent colony to disappear.

2) They would use what was available. It might not have been the alliance. It could have been his SR-1 crew members. Tali could easily have managed that, possiblly even without having to enter the station. Garrus might have been able to as well, and they would not have programmed the mechs to kill shep, but just to 'rebel.'

The station could also have been attacked by forces Shep considered friendly without having any clue he was there. The point is HE HAD NO CLUE.

3) It is small, agile, and could have stayed in the shadow of the station long enough to disengage. Once in FTL it could not be tracked or touched. Unlikely as it sounds, it may simply have been overlooked. The collector vessel conveniently ignored the lifepods from the Normandy....

 1. Shepard didn't trust them. How many times must I say that? It was up until Freedom's Progress that Shep agrees to work with them. Even after Freedom's Progress [if you're Paragon] he doesn't trust them [at the very least, not the Illusive Man, anyway]. And it probably would make a difference as to who investigated Freedom's Progress. Cerberus got there first, and who knows how long it took Alliance investigators to arrive after Cerberus left? Many thing could have happend to Tali and her squad if Cerberus and Shepard didn't arrive in time.

 2. Once again, if it was a rescue mission, why did the mechs shoot at Shepard? Tali and/or Garrus would have known better than to program the mechs to just "rebel". They wouldn't take a chance like that as it could result in Shepards death. It doesn't matter how much confidence you have in someone's combat ability, you don't shoot-to-kill the person you're trying to rescue.

 3. Once again, this all ties into the assuption that Shep should have thought he was being rescued. Which he wasn't and which he didn't.