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Dear Bioware you need a Retcon. Resurrecting Shepard is impossible


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#801
Iakus

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StarcloudSWG wrote...

Keep in mind too some of the people Shepard meets don't immediately come to the conclusion "You were dead!" but rather "You must have been alive!" Ashley/Kaiden is one of those people, clearly, because their responses don't indicate they thought Shepard was really dead.


There's exactly two instances in the entire game that actually respond as one would expect upon seeing a "dead" Shepard.

1  Nasana Dantius

2 Citadel Security.  Not the C-Sec agents.  The security system that flagged Shepard as dead.

Everyone else, even those who know the whole truth, brush his death away as a messy, but unimportant detail.

#802
StarcloudSWG

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There was also Liara, but she was 'in the know' in terms of knowing Cerberus was going to try to bring Shepard back.



It's underplayed. Even not played at all, because the focus of the game isn't "OMG, they resurrected Shepard!"

#803
Iakus

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StarcloudSWG wrote...

There was also Liara, but she was 'in the know' in terms of knowing Cerberus was going to try to bring Shepard back.

It's underplayed. Even not played at all, because the focus of the game isn't "OMG, they resurrected Shepard!"


The point is, ressurecting someone from the dead should be momentous, This isn't just a case of remembering your CPR classes or judicious use of defibrilators/medigel.  This is two years dead.  Suffocated, frozen, possibly irradiated,  definitely smacked in the face with a  planet dead. 

in anything short of a high powered P&P game, bringing him back from the dead should be a momentous task.  With equally momentous repercussions. For Miranda, whose team discovered the Cure for Death.  For Shepard, who has to come to grips with being meat, then being not-meat, possibly wondering just how human he/she really is now..  With everyone who mourned Shep's death (or rejoiced) only to to learn Shepard's back. To the scientific community, who's going to wonder how the frak Shepard is still walking around. (gotta wonder why Mordin was so incurious about Shepard's ressurection)  Heck Shepard's return should cause a slew of legal questions to crop up.  And this is all after you answer the question of how  Shepard can be revived, with memories intact.

There werwe any number of ways Shepard could have been isolated from the Alliance and made to work with Cerberus.  Bioware chose death.  You play with the forces of life and death, you should be ready to run with the concept.  Not simply use it as a reset button.  That way lies cheese.

#804
StarcloudSWG

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Yes, which is why this is more Space Opera/action movie than Science Fiction/drama. They should have had more moments where Shepard has an introspective moment with a teammate he trusts, it's a missed opportunity to develop the character. But too much of that gets in the way of the actual action.

#805
Ski Mask Wei

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iakus wrote...

StarcloudSWG wrote...

There was also Liara, but she was 'in the know' in terms of knowing Cerberus was going to try to bring Shepard back.

It's underplayed. Even not played at all, because the focus of the game isn't "OMG, they resurrected Shepard!"


The point is, ressurecting someone from the dead should be momentous, This isn't just a case of remembering your CPR classes or judicious use of defibrilators/medigel.  This is two years dead.  Suffocated, frozen, possibly irradiated,  definitely smacked in the face with a  planet dead. 

in anything short of a high powered P&P game, bringing him back from the dead should be a momentous task.  With equally momentous repercussions. For Miranda, whose team discovered the Cure for Death.  For Shepard, who has to come to grips with being meat, then being not-meat, possibly wondering just how human he/she really is now..  With everyone who mourned Shep's death (or rejoiced) only to to learn Shepard's back. To the scientific community, who's going to wonder how the frak Shepard is still walking around. (gotta wonder why Mordin was so incurious about Shepard's ressurection)  Heck Shepard's return should cause a slew of legal questions to crop up.  And this is all after you answer the question of how  Shepard can be revived, with memories intact.

There werwe any number of ways Shepard could have been isolated from the Alliance and made to work with Cerberus.  Bioware chose death.  You play with the forces of life and death, you should be ready to run with the concept.  Not simply use it as a reset button.  That way lies cheese.


That's why I wished they didn't go that route.  They use this far-fetched idea way outta left field and don't even follow it up properly.  They could've at least had old friends like Ash/Kaiden comment on those wicked mech eyes/scars if you had them.  Basically it was a bad idea and I'm surprised no one at Bioware put the brakes on it before it got into the game.  The only way I could see it ending up working is if Shepard is some kind of Super Husk and they use that concept in the Reaper battles.

#806
Rockworm503

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OMG there's not enough reality in my Sci-fi and or fantasy I want my money back QQ

#807
Phaedon

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Rockworm503 wrote...

OMG there's not enough reality in my Sci-fi and or fantasy I want my money back QQ


Fiction in my Science Fiction Game ? We have dismissed these claims.

#808
Moiaussi

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Phaedon wrote...

Rockworm503 wrote...

OMG there's not enough reality in my Sci-fi and or fantasy I want my money back QQ


Fiction in my Science Fiction Game ? We have dismissed these claims.


This isn't a fantasy genre game. Science fiction as a genre is rooted in science, or at least cohesive psudo-science. Fiction of any genre has to stay consistant and cohesive to be considered good.

ME2 doesn't quite manage that anywhere near as well as ME1 did. If they just wanted to toss plot out the window and make a standard shooter trilogy with just enough plot to provide excuses to shoot things, they should have done so and marketed as such. Instead we got a wonderful RPG/story heavy ME1 with shooter elements, then the story was mostly tossed aside to make room for a better shooter. They shouldn't be mutually exclusive like that. With the changes to the combat system they made in ME2 and a cohesive interesting plot like that of ME1 they would have had something truely amazing instead of something that is closer to being just another shooter.

The recruitment stories are pretty solid, so it is still a little more than 'just another shooter', but the overall plot is weak at best.

Modifié par Moiaussi, 06 octobre 2010 - 08:29 .


#809
Zulu_DFA

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iakus wrote...

Everyone else, even those who know the whole truth, brush his death away as a messy, but unimportant detail.


In fact everyone else thinks it was either a miraculous deliverance or an outright evil plan to betray the Council and go rogue. Or a mix of both. Who cares to what lenghts Cerberus had really have to go to perform the "miracle".

#810
Gre3nham

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I dont see the problem, space is cold, he probably froze just after his heart stopped beating, sure, he was dead, but he was also in cryogenic stasis - which would preserve body and brain tissue. from there you can assume that he was picked up in low orbit by the Shadow Broker and placed in another cryo pod.



And if you cant accept Shepard's resurrection as it is 'scientifically impossible' then i suggest you break your copy of Mass Effect right now. Because its impossible to get 'element zero' in this universe, as there is no possible configuration for a atom bellow hydrogen, unless theres a weird configuration of quarks that form a half-proton which could go with a half-electron. which there isnt.

#811
smudboy

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Gre3nham wrote...

I dont see the problem, space is cold, he probably froze just after his heart stopped beating, sure, he was dead, but he was also in cryogenic stasis - which would preserve body and brain tissue. from there you can assume that he was picked up in low orbit by the Shadow Broker and placed in another cryo pod.

-Space is a vacuum.  If anything it would preserve but extremely depressurize Shepard's body.  With no medium to transport heat.  The rate at which Shepard was gasping for breath, if introduced to a vacuum, would tear their lungs apart.
-Though Cryogenics exists in the ME universe, I'm quite sure the procedure does not involve getting spaced.
--If you're referring to freezing someone, the issue of crystalization of moisture in ones body becomes an issue.  Crystals would shatter the tissues and bonds of the body, causing it to expand and literally destroy itself.  I'm looking at you, Brain.
-The devs say Shepard hit the planet.  Now, this does not explain how they survived re-entry into the methane & ammonia atmosphere.  Additionally, they do not understand velocity in space, explosive velocity, or high-altitude jumps, or what happens to matter when it collides with the ground after travelling several thousand miles an hour.

Yet somehow after this predicament which would lead Shepard's body to become atomized in the few ways listed, it becomes preserved.  Heck, even their helmet and armor is found on the ground of Alchera, somehow.

And if you cant accept Shepard's resurrection as it is 'scientifically impossible' then i suggest you break your copy of Mass Effect right now. Because its impossible to get 'element zero' in this universe, as there is no possible configuration for a atom bellow hydrogen, unless theres a weird configuration of quarks that form a half-proton which could go with a half-electron. which there isnt.


You're not making sense.

First, there is Eezo in the ME universe.  This is not in contention.  But what does Eezo have to do with Shepard's resurrection?  I've no doubt that if the writer tells me resurrection is possible, it is.  They just have to show or tell me how that's possible.  ME2 did not do this.

As for your understanding of Eezo, which implies 0 protons in the nucleus of an atom.  It also implies 0 neutrons and 0 electrons.  Now I have no idea what that means, or how Eezo is an actual element, and that's fine.  It's an actual thing in the universe we can point to.  It's the "unobtainium" that gives people biotic powers.

Now if Shepard's resurrection involved eezo, or some kind of unobtainium that rebuilt their cells, then we'd go "oh, that's how."  Or something to that effect.  But we can't.  Not only that, but that little substance has to explain the Death, Preservation and Resurrection in some way.

We're not necessarily looking for a scientific explanation to answer those questions, although that'd be cool.  We're looking for a literary means of lampshading or explaining those questions away.

#812
Schneidend

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Shepard's consciousness was likely digitally/electronically reconstructed just like President Huerta's.



/thread

#813
Saibh

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Eh, it doesn't bother me. It's not like Shepard died at the end of ME1 and was resurrected--it happens within, like, two minutes of each other. I'm totally okay with it.

#814
Phaedon

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Moiaussi wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

Rockworm503 wrote...

OMG there's not enough reality in my Sci-fi and or fantasy I want my money back QQ


Fiction in my Science Fiction Game ? We have dismissed these claims.


This isn't a fantasy genre game. Science fiction as a genre is rooted in science, or at least cohesive psudo-science. Fiction of any genre has to stay consistant and cohesive to be considered good.

ME2 doesn't quite manage that anywhere near as well as ME1 did. If they just wanted to toss plot out the window and make a standard shooter trilogy with just enough plot to provide excuses to shoot things, they should have done so and marketed as such. Instead we got a wonderful RPG/story heavy ME1 with shooter elements, then the story was mostly tossed aside to make room for a better shooter. They shouldn't be mutually exclusive like that. With the changes to the combat system they made in ME2 and a cohesive interesting plot like that of ME1 they would have had something truely amazing instead of something that is closer to being just another shooter.

The recruitment stories are pretty solid, so it is still a little more than 'just another shooter', but the overall plot is weak at best.

If you want to complain about ME2 and overrate ME1, then do so clearly. The mass effect universe is one of the few sci-fi universes that really puts science in their fiction.

#815
Moiaussi

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Phaedon wrote...

If you want to complain about ME2 and overrate ME1, then do so clearly. The mass effect universe is one of the few sci-fi universes that really puts science in their fiction.


If you want to accuse me of overrating ME1 (or anything else) please do so clearly. How am I overrating ME1 and what aspect(s) of my complaints regarding ME2 do you find unclear?

#816
smudboy

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Phaedon wrote...
If you want to complain about ME2 and overrate ME1, then do so clearly. The mass effect universe is one of the few sci-fi universes that really puts science in their fiction.


There was science in resurrecting Shepard?  I think I missed that 3 hour long power point presentation on how to resurrect atomized/pulverized/vaporized/crystalized brains.

Modifié par smudboy, 06 octobre 2010 - 06:35 .


#817
Nozybidaj

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smudboy wrote...

Phaedon wrote...
If you want to complain about ME2 and overrate ME1, then do so clearly. The mass effect universe is one of the few sci-fi universes that really puts science in their fiction.


There was science in resurrecting Shepard?  I think I missed that 3 hour long power point presentation on how to resurrect atomized/pulverized/vaporized/crystalized brains.


Yeah, think I must have missed it as well.  Was probably distracted by all the "a wizard did it' hand waving.

Modifié par Nozybidaj, 06 octobre 2010 - 06:44 .


#818
smudboy

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Nozybidaj wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Phaedon wrote...
If you want to complain about ME2 and overrate ME1, then do so clearly. The mass effect universe is one of the few sci-fi universes that really puts science in their fiction.


There was science in resurrecting Shepard?  I think I missed that 3 hour long power point presentation on how to resurrect atomized/pulverized/vaporized/crystalized brains.


Yeah, think I must have missed it as well.  Was probably distracted by all the "a wizard did it' hand waving.


There was a wizard hand waving scene?  :wizard:

#819
Nozybidaj

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smudboy wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Phaedon wrote...
If you want to complain about ME2 and overrate ME1, then do so clearly. The mass effect universe is one of the few sci-fi universes that really puts science in their fiction.


There was science in resurrecting Shepard?  I think I missed that 3 hour long power point presentation on how to resurrect atomized/pulverized/vaporized/crystalized brains.


Yeah, think I must have missed it as well.  Was probably distracted by all the "a wizard did it' hand waving.


There was a wizard hand waving scene?  :wizard:


Yeah, first meeting with TIM.  Shepard noticed a few upgrades, TIM mumbled something about not worrying about, Shepard said okay.  Apparently that serves as close enough to "problem solved" far as Shepard is concerned.

#820
smudboy

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Hmm, TIM's a wizard. This explains how he knew we needed people for a Suicide Mission into an unknown part of the galaxy to fight a land war in Asia...without our spaceship...hmm...it's all becoming clear...

#821
Moiaussi

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smudboy wrote...

Hmm, TIM's a wizard. This explains how he knew we needed people for a Suicide Mission into an unknown part of the galaxy to fight a land war in Asia...without our spaceship...hmm...it's all becoming clear...


I am not so down on the question of knowing to need a team. To me that is just a reasonable precaution if you are planning on using small unit tactics. The whole 'spectres work alone' concept bothered me from the start.

#822
Saibh

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Moiaussi wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Hmm, TIM's a wizard. This explains how he knew we needed people for a Suicide Mission into an unknown part of the galaxy to fight a land war in Asia...without our spaceship...hmm...it's all becoming clear...


I am not so down on the question of knowing to need a team. To me that is just a reasonable precaution if you are planning on using small unit tactics. The whole 'spectres work alone' concept bothered me from the start.


Especially because you didn't actually work alone, even if you didn't actively recruit people. You always have two other people with you.

As far as you needing a team for the SM, that just makes sense, I should say. Shepard handles everything in small teams, and TIM knew that Shepard would need the very best. Makes sense to me.

#823
smudboy

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Moiaussi wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Hmm, TIM's a wizard. This explains how he knew we needed people for a Suicide Mission into an unknown part of the galaxy to fight a land war in Asia...without our spaceship...hmm...it's all becoming clear...


I am not so down on the question of knowing to need a team. To me that is just a reasonable precaution if you are planning on using small unit tactics. The whole 'spectres work alone' concept bothered me from the start.


I'm curious: at what point in the story did you think we needed a team?  What would this team be doing?

All we knew of the Collectors at the start is they have a ship, and we expect them to have an entire homeworld or series of planets we needed to attack.

#824
Phaedon

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smudboy wrote...

Phaedon wrote...
If you want to complain about ME2 and overrate ME1, then do so clearly. The mass effect universe is one of the few sci-fi universes that really puts science in their fiction.


There was science in resurrecting Shepard?  I think I missed that 3 hour long power point presentation on how to resurrect atomized/pulverized/vaporized/crystalized brains.

So, any scientific evidence that this can't happen in like, 2 centuries from now ? :)

#825
Phaedon

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Moiaussi wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

If you want to complain about ME2 and overrate ME1, then do so clearly. The mass effect universe is one of the few sci-fi universes that really puts science in their fiction.


If you want to accuse me of overrating ME1 (or anything else) please do so clearly. How am I overrating ME1 and what aspect(s) of my complaints regarding ME2 do you find unclear?


Please, by no means, take this as a personal attack, it wasn't intended to be one, anyway. I just don't see how ME1 'didn't throw the plot out of the window and become a shooter' is relevant.