931 réponses à ce sujet

[smudboy]

Phaedon wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Phaedon wrote...
If you want to complain about ME2 and overrate ME1, then do so clearly. The mass effect universe is one of the few sci-fi universes that really puts science in their fiction.

There was science in resurrecting Shepard?  I think I missed that 3 hour long power point presentation on how to resurrect atomized/pulverized/vaporized/crystalized brains.

So, any scientific evidence that this can't happen in like, 2 centuries from now ? 

Let me get my time machine.

None.

[Phaedon]

smudboy wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Phaedon wrote...
If you want to complain about ME2 and overrate ME1, then do so clearly. The mass effect universe is one of the few sci-fi universes that really puts science in their fiction.

There was science in resurrecting Shepard?  I think I missed that 3 hour long power point presentation on how to resurrect atomized/pulverized/vaporized/crystalized brains.

So, any scientific evidence that this can't happen in like, 2 centuries from now ? 

Let me get my time machine.

None.

Well then, I say that we do this:
Since Mass Effect is a Sci-Fi game, give Bioware the benefit of a doubt. A few decades ago, we though that space was filled with a gas that helped waves and light travel. Although stuff like mass manipulation will probably never happen, we can't be sure about other scientific discoveries. If you pay close attention, however, you are going to see that some stuff have carefully been examined and developed by Bioware. Bioware should get a priiiize, not a retcon...

[Mr. Gogeta34]

He was preserved by freeze, kinetic/biotic barriers, and medigel.

Problem solved

/yay thread.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 06 octobre 2010 - 09:00 .

[smudboy]

Phaedon wrote...
Well then, I say that we do this:
Since Mass Effect is a Sci-Fi game, give Bioware the benefit of a doubt.

I did.  I bought ME2.  They've proven me wrong.

A few decades ago, we though that space was filled with a gas that helped waves and light travel. Although stuff like mass manipulation will probably never happen, we can't be sure about other scientific discoveries. If you pay close attention, however, you are going to see that some stuff have carefully been examined and developed by Bioware. Bioware should get a priiiize, not a retcon...

Bioware should get a writer who maybe actually reads science or is a scientist and put them in charge, if you're so gung-ho about this science angle.  I just want their stories to make goddamned sense, let alone be written well.

[Saibh]

smudboy wrote...

Phaedon wrote...
Well then, I say that we do this:
Since Mass Effect is a Sci-Fi game, give Bioware the benefit of a doubt.

I did.  I bought ME2.  They've proven me wrong.

A few decades ago, we though that space was filled with a gas that helped waves and light travel. Although stuff like mass manipulation will probably never happen, we can't be sure about other scientific discoveries. If you pay close attention, however, you are going to see that some stuff have carefully been examined and developed by Bioware. Bioware should get a priiiize, not a retcon...

Bioware should get a writer who maybe actually reads science or is a scientist and put them in charge, if you're so gung-ho about this science angle.  I just want their stories to make goddamned sense, let alone be written well.

LOOK. It was done with eezo, man. It does everything else. This time it brings people back from the dead. If you can accept it doing all of the other things it can do in ME1, I'm going to accept it having zombie-powers.

In the next game it will have facial reconstruction powers.

Modifié par Saibh, 06 octobre 2010 - 09:10 .

[Moiaussi]

smudboy wrote...

I'm curious: at what point in the story did you think we needed a team?  What would this team be doing?

All we knew of the Collectors at the start is they have a ship, and we expect them to have an entire homeworld or series of planets we needed to attack.

Another non-scout. Never heard the phrase 'be prepared?' 

Mostly investigative work, with firefights, with enough backup that the mission isn't a complete failure simply because one man goes down (i.e. there is a better chance of at least someone being able to report back) and a wide enough range of skills to cover a wide range of situations.

Us taking them on personally was about as likely as us taking on the entire Geth fleet in ME1.

[RiouHotaru]

smudboy wrote...

Unexplained technobabble is usually bad.  I am advocating a narrative that clearly explains what's going on, regardless of the content.

For example, we're dealing with resurrection.  Ok, so, the Resurection Machine.  The Lazarus Pit.  The elixir of Eternal Youth.  This is not techno babble, but if something like that was there -- something we could point to, reference, etc -- then we'd go "oh, that's what caused it."  The rest of the exposition could be surrounding how that thing came about, came to be, was obtained, which could be further lampshaded by the Genius Savant Doctor or Wizard or some such, 2 years, lots of money, etc.  But we've got nothing to wrap out heads around save ambiguous cutscenes of microscopic shots of a vein, some bones, and a rotating skeleton with a 3D heart beating and a pulse counter.

ME2 has a threefold problem.  There is a lack of exposition on Shepard's death, preservation and resurrection.  So they simply must fill in the blanks with what happened.  Jacob's ridiculous account describing Shepard's state of death is nonsensical, and Miranda's audio logs for Shepard's resurrection progress is not helping to being downright wrong in some cases.  And I don't even want to get into supplemental comic book material on Liara (because I never read it), which should've been in the main story.

Then there's the complete uselessness of having Shepard come back from the dead, when no one really cares about it anyway.

Wait, you never read the comics?  I remember you had some reason or another for it, but there's a reason the comics were made a seperate item that had to be purchased and read: Marketing.  It's a way to make money.  But that doesn't make the information within the comics any less valid because it supplemental.  It just means without it, the details of those events are a helluva lot fuzzier.

[Iakus]

Phaedon wrote...

So, any scientific evidence that this can't happen in like, 2 centuries from now ? 

Our 2 centuries from now?  No, no evidence one way or teh other.

In the Mass Effect universe?  There was no evidence that any such technology existed.  In Mass Effect 2, there was no evidence that such technology existed aside from Shepard being up and walking around.  Afterwards, there was no evidence that such technology existed.

If at some point, Shepard demanded an explanation from Miranda, and she said something along the lines of:

"Have you ever heard of Doctor Howard?  He's been a pioneer in the reversal of brain damage and cellular regeneration.   I don't understand all the technical details, but he's been working with a Professor Fine on a way to restore neural pathways that have been massively degraded.  It will be years before it will be ready for public use, and is prohibitavely expensive.  The mass effect fields needed to perform such microscopic surgery are incredibly difficult to control. 

"Fortunately for us, Howard's brother was also an expert on cellular regeneration and repair.  He was a  former research partner of Howard and Fine as well as a Cerberus sympathizer.  Our Doctor Howard managed to get us the information we needed to get a working prototype of their machine.  He got it up and running shortly  before his...untimely demise..  If the theories held up, it could restore human tissue, including brain tissue, to it's previous undamaged state.  The Lazarus cell has spent the last two years getting this machine up and working.  You were our first success"

There.  A crude explanation for how such a device could exist.  Something to show such a procedure could be possible, or at least was being looked into.  And see, i even managed to fit mass effect fields into it.  No it doesn't explain the massive overkill SHepard went through before they got the body, but you can't have everything.

[Notker_Biloba]

Waded through most of this. Didn't see an explanation. Here you go.

Perfectly explainable by present knowledge in physics and biology. (1) People (parachutists, e.g.) have been known to survive terminal velocity crashes with planet surfaces; (2) people have been known to have been chilled for extended lengths of time (falling into rivers, e.g., clinically dead) and brought back to full health and mental functioning; (3) there's nothing that says Shepard burns up in the atmosphere. Assume further that (1) it's a small planet with a thick atmosphere and (2) the planet is cold and covered with a nice, fluffy coating of snow. So she drifts slowly from the Normandy, accelerates slowly toward the planet, reaches a leisurely terminal velocity, and comes to rest (albeit abruptly) on the planet's surface, all nice and frozen and ready for rescue and resuscitation. Externally she's singed a bit on re-entry and has broken bones from the landing, but the noodle is intact. No retcon necessary.

Modifié par Notker_Biloba, 06 octobre 2010 - 11:15 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

works for me... plus the fact that a flash freeze would preserve everything, factor that in with the effects of implants and element zero/biotics and you could theorize how, combined with Cerberus technology... he recovered.

Also a biotic/kinetic barrier would absorb the brunt of atmosphere entry if not some of the landing too.  Medigel would heal wounds as long as he could administer them for.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 06 octobre 2010 - 11:32 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Notker_Biloba wrote...

(1) People (parachutists, e.g.) have been known to survive terminal velocity crashes with planet surfaces;

Davy Crockett tales. The Myth Busters busted those myths.

Notker_Biloba wrote...
and comes to rest (albeit abruptly)

It's like being hit by a train at full speed.

Notker_Biloba wrote...
and ready for rescue and resuscitation

Only the rescue and resuscitation wasn't ready. Not for another couple of weeks, when water crystallization would have plenty of time finish what the impact should have had mostly done already and turn the brain tissue into goo.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 06 octobre 2010 - 11:36 .

[StarcloudSWG]

It wasn't "just one thing". Wilson was brilliant, if unethical, jealous, and feeling like he was underappreciated and underpaid. He and his team spent two years experimenting and rebuilding, cloning bits when needed, restoring dead tissue to a living state, making upgrades to implants and basically going from an all organic approach to, as Miranda says, a bio-synthetic fusion.

[Schneidend]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Davy Crockett tales. The Myth Busters busted those myths.

Stuff that really happens aren't myths. Skydivers have plummeted to the ground and come out with nothing more serious than a few broken bones.


Also, Myth Busters is to science as Hungry Man dinners are to authentic cuisine.

Modifié par Schneidend, 07 octobre 2010 - 12:06 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Schneidend wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Davy Crockett tales. The Myth Busters busted those myths.

Stuff that really happens aren't myths. Skydivers have plummeted to the ground and come out with nothing more serious than a few broken bones.


Also, Myth Busters is to science as Hungry Man dinners are to authentic cuisine.

Yeah, and some people broke their backs with fully functional chutes, just with a little lateral wind... So what's the point of the parachute anyway?

[smudboy]

iakus wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

So, any scientific evidence that this can't happen in like, 2 centuries from now ? 

Our 2 centuries from now?  No, no evidence one way or teh other.

In the Mass Effect universe?  There was no evidence that any such technology existed.  In Mass Effect 2, there was no evidence that such technology existed aside from Shepard being up and walking around.  Afterwards, there was no evidence that such technology existed.

If at some point, Shepard demanded an explanation from Miranda, and she said something along the lines of:

"Have you ever heard of Doctor Howard?  He's been a pioneer in the reversal of brain damage and cellular regeneration.   I don't understand all the technical details, but he's been working with a Professor Fine on a way to restore neural pathways that have been massively degraded.  It will be years before it will be ready for public use, and is prohibitavely expensive.  The mass effect fields needed to perform such microscopic surgery are incredibly difficult to control. 

"Fortunately for us, Howard's brother was also an expert on cellular regeneration and repair.  He was a  former research partner of Howard and Fine as well as a Cerberus sympathizer.  Our Doctor Howard managed to get us the information we needed to get a working prototype of their machine.  He got it up and running shortly  before his...untimely demise..  If the theories held up, it could restore human tissue, including brain tissue, to it's previous undamaged state.  The Lazarus cell has spent the last two years getting this machine up and working.  You were our first success"

There.  A crude explanation for how such a device could exist.  Something to show such a procedure could be possible, or at least was being looked into.  And see, i even managed to fit mass effect fields into it.  No it doesn't explain the massive overkill SHepard went through before they got the body, but you can't have everything.

This.

Well done.  A simple explanation without being too complex or unbelievable, which is something I was expecting: an exposition on scientists specializing in cellular regeneration, who were par of a massive project, in a space station.  A little bit of exposition goes a long, long way.

[Notker_Biloba]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Notker_Biloba wrote...

(1) People (parachutists, e.g.) have been known to survive terminal velocity crashes with planet surfaces;

Davy Crockett tales. The Myth Busters busted those myths.

What Schneidend said.  Furthermore, Myth Busters never went to Alchera.

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Notker_Biloba wrote...
and comes to rest (albeit abruptly)

It's like being hit by a train at full speed.

Gravity is weaker on Alchera, and the atmosphere is thicker.  Terminal velocity is lower.  It's like getting hit by a linebacker.

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Notker_Biloba wrote...
and ready for rescue and resuscitation

Only the rescue and resuscitation wasn't ready. Not for another couple of weeks, when water crystallization would have plenty of time finish what the impact should have had mostly done already and turn the brain tissue into goo.

Whatever the snowy stuff is on Alchera crystalizes at about four degrees Celsius.  No ice crystals form in brain.

[Zulu_DFA]

Notker_Biloba wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Notker_Biloba wrote...

(1) People (parachutists, e.g.) have been known to survive terminal velocity crashes with planet surfaces;

Davy Crockett tales. The Myth Busters busted those myths.

What Schneidend said.  Furthermore, Myth Busters never went to Alchera.

They could go to the South Pole in August though.

Notker_Biloba wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Notker_Biloba wrote...
and comes to rest (albeit abruptly)

It's like being hit by a train at full speed.

Gravity is weaker on Alchera, and the atmosphere is thicker.  Terminal velocity is lower.  It's like getting hit by a linebacker.

The atmosphere is thinner, which compensates for lower gravity. Terminal velocity is roughly Earth like.

Notker_Biloba wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Notker_Biloba wrote...
and ready for rescue and resuscitation

Only the rescue and resuscitation wasn't ready. Not for another couple of weeks, when water crystallization would have plenty of time finish what the impact should have had mostly done already and turn the brain tissue into goo.

Whatever the snowy stuff is on Alchera crystalizes at about four degrees Celsius.  No ice crystals form in brain.

???
Come again? The temperature on Alchera is deep below zero. Shepard would turn into popsicle in a matter of minutes. Which means goo upon thawing.

[Moiaussi]

And regardless of what the Devs said, the Normandy was clearly not stationary, which means there is something other than just acceleration due to gravity involved.

[Notker_Biloba]

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

[quote]Notker_Biloba wrote...

[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...

[quote]Notker_Biloba wrote...

(1) People (parachutists, e.g.) have been known to survive terminal velocity crashes with planet surfaces;
[/quote]

Davy Crockett tales. The Myth Busters busted those myths.
[/quote]

What Schneidend said.  Furthermore, Myth Busters never went to Alchera.
[/quote]
They could go to the South Pole in August though.
[/quote]
Not relevant.  Earth and Alchera too different.  Even if they weren't, there's still snow (see below).
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
[quote]Notker_Biloba wrote...
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
[quote]Notker_Biloba wrote...
and comes to rest (albeit abruptly)
[/quote]
It's like being hit by a train at full speed.
[/quote]
Gravity is weaker on Alchera, and the atmosphere is thicker.  Terminal velocity is lower.  It's like getting hit by a linebacker.
[/quote]
The atmosphere is thinner, which compensates for lower gravity. Terminal velocity is roughly Earth like.
[/quote]
Ok, I checked the wiki site.  Alchera is more massive than Earth, but with "a thick atmosphere of methane and ammonia".  I'm guessing the atmosphere is extremely thick and thus terminal velocity is lower.  Furthermore, everyone knows that landing in snow significantly reduces the rate of deceleration on impact.
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
[quote]Notker_Biloba wrote...
[quote]Zulu_DFA wrote...
[quote]Notker_Biloba wrote...
and ready for rescue and resuscitation
[/quote]
Only the rescue and resuscitation wasn't ready. Not for another couple of weeks, when water crystallization would have plenty of time finish what the impact should have had mostly done already and turn the brain tissue into goo.[/quote]
Whatever the snowy stuff is on Alchera crystalizes at about four degrees Celsius.  No ice crystals form in brain.
[/quote]
???
Come again? The temperature on Alchera is deep below zero. Shepard would turn into popsicle in a matter of minutes. Which means goo upon thawing.[/quote]
Ok, you're right, as verified on wiki site.  But Shepards helmet, um, has a solar panels or something that allow her cranium to maintain 4 deg. C in an emergency? 

[Iakus]

smudboy wrote...

This.

Well done.  A simple explanation without being too complex or unbelievable, which is something I was expecting: an exposition on scientists specializing in cellular regeneration, who were par of a massive project, in a space station.  A little bit of exposition goes a long, long way.

And a less scientifically-minded person you are unlikely to meet

Man, if ME2 was moddable, and I knew how to mod, I'd totally make an ME 2:  The Coherent edition.  For my own peace of mind if nothing else.

Modifié par iakus, 07 octobre 2010 - 01:15 .

[smudboy]

Notker_Biloba wrote...

Gravity is weaker on Alchera, and the atmosphere is thicker.  Terminal velocity is lower.  It's like getting hit by a linebacker.

A line backer.  A line backer, really.  Ah huh.

Gravity on Alchera is 0.85 g.  This would equate to a force of gravity of 8.33 m/s^2.

The highest altitude drop by man in free fall on earth was from a height of 102, 800 feet.  He was traveling at 614 mph.

Shepard is coming in from outer space, from an explosion, whose force is anywhere from 1k-11k mph.  Alchera is roughly 3 times the diameter of earth, so we can safely assume Alchera's atmosphere is at least 100,000 feet.  But let's also assume they start from an accleration of 0.

My math is iffy, but that puts Shepard's velocity somewhere around 500 mph.

This is what happens to a jet at 500 mph.

Modifié par smudboy, 07 octobre 2010 - 01:24 .

[Radgen1]

"The highest altitude drop by man in free fall on earth was from a height of 102, 800 feet. He was traveling at 614 mph."



He didn't stay at that speed. He only was able to reach that speed at the very thin upper reaches. As he dropped the atmosphere got thicker and he was slowed down by air resitence. Or do you think he actually opened a parachute at that speed?



You do understand that terminal velocity is the point where air resistence overcomes gravity's acceleration right? That means as one drops through an atmosphere and it gets thicker, the air resistence gets greater, you slow down. Is a drop from the very upper reaches of the atmosphere a likely survival event? No. Is it completely outside the realm of possibility? No it isn;t. It just isn't very likely.



For someone who demands plausible explainations, you should double check your own assumptions.



That being said, it is clearly stated that Shepard did NOT survive this event. The question is would it be possible to revive someone from such a state. If key parts of the body(namely the brain) was preserved without significant tissue damage or metabolic degradation before complete shutdown then the answer is a qulaified yes. Is such a preservation likely in an unplanned event like the destruction of the Normandy? Again the answer is no, but it also isn't completely outside the realm of possibility either. People do hit the lottery. Hell some have even hit it twice.



You don't like the story choices that were made. That is fine, but that is an aethestic choice. One that is very subjective and is not concrete fact.. Trying to "prove" your dislike is useless.

[smudboy]

Radgen1 wrote...

"The highest altitude drop by man in free fall on earth was from a height of 102, 800 feet. He was traveling at 614 mph."

He didn't stay at that speed. He only was able to reach that speed at the very thin upper reaches. As he dropped the atmosphere got thicker and he was slowed down by air resitence. Or do you think he actually opened a parachute at that speed?

You do understand that terminal velocity is the point where air resistence overcomes gravity's acceleration right? That means as one drops through an atmosphere and it gets thicker, the air resistence gets greater, you slow down. Is a drop from the very upper reaches of the atmosphere a likely survival event? No. Is it completely outside the realm of possibility? No it isn;t. It just isn't very likely.

For someone who demands plausible explainations, you should double check your own assumptions.

That being said, it is clearly stated that Shepard did NOT survive this event. The question is would it be possible to revive someone from such a state. If key parts of the body(namely the brain) was preserved without significant tissue damage or metabolic degradation before complete shutdown then the answer is a qulaified yes. Is such a preservation likely in an unplanned event like the destruction of the Normandy? Again the answer is no, but it also isn't completely outside the realm of possibility either. People do hit the lottery. Hell some have even hit it twice.

You don't like the story choices that were made. That is fine, but that is an aethestic choice. One that is very subjective and is not concrete fact.. Trying to "prove" your dislike is useless.

My apologies.  He was traveling at 1640.246 feet/s at terminal velocity.

(or 1118.34954 mph)

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Barriers can sustain a direct missle shot (maybe even 2). A barrier-shielded impact would explain why his body was mostly intact.

[Radgen1]

Again, terminal velocity is NOT static. Terminal velocity at 100,000 ft IS much faster that it is at 1,000 ft. Barring any other forces, if you reach terminal velocity at the higher reaches, you will SLOW DOWN as you drop through the atmosphere to the thicker lower reaches.



We don't know the exact details of the atmosphere on Achea. If it is even a little denser, that combined with the lowere gravity would mean a much lower terminal velocity at impact than you would find even on earth. Since we have real world examples of people surving terminal velocity impacts here on earth. Surviving the one described in ME2 is certainly plausible.



But again, we know that Shepard did NOT survive, so that argument is irrelevant. The only question is, would his body have been in such a condition as to allow him/her to be revived. Such a situation, while unlikely is not impossible. Especially since were are told the massive amount of effort and resources put into the effort by an organization that is 2 + centuries ahead of us technologically.



I don't know why that trips you up so bad when the existence of biotics which is REALLY out there as far as plausibility goes does not.



You don;t like the story choices and seemed determined to somehow prove your subjective opinion of that as being a "fact". You can't do it. When it comes to story choices, your opinion is not any more "right" than mine is.