931 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Here's my preferred explanation:

Shepard had something like a greybox, only that it only stored his memory and didn't enable perfect recall. He didn't know he had it, and no one told him. I find it very much easier to suspend my disbelief for this scenario than for a miraculous restoration of the information in Shepard's brain that should've been irrevocably destroyed.

BTW, restoring the rest of his body should not have been as difficult by far. I'd be very surprised if the medical technology in the ME universe couldn't clone body parts. Only the brain presents a problem, or rather, the information in it.

The problem is, that even a graybox "secretly installed" on Shepard wouldn't cut it. Because memories, although a significant constituent of personality, are not the only one an even not the most important. There are different functions of the brain that make everybody the persons they are. Clear proof of that is that people may lose their memories or even the ability to remember things due to some brain trauma, but still remain functional and different from each other, react differently in similar situations. Such thing as skill definitely has other base than memory.

The graybox is simply a storage device, like today's flash drive, only a lot more advanced. Keji Okuda's graybox only held his memories, not the personality.

So it still has to be the original Shepard's brain in this new half-cybernetic body, to make it the same Shepard, "exactly as you were".

[khevan]

 I...agree with smudboy?  Damn, something must be wrong with the universe. 

I think what's getting lost in this conversation is the fact that people aren't necessarily looking for scientifically provable means by which Shepard could have died, been preserved, and then resurrected, but are looking for plausible story mumbo-jumbo which would explain the "miracle."

I have no issue with believing that it's somehow possible for Shepard's brain to have been restored to full functionality, including his personality and memories (but somehow not his skillset...but that's a gameplay mechanic, and so I'm fine with it.)  I have an issue with the impossible being done without any kind of hand-waving that says "this is how we did it."  It can be vague, it can be as simple as the scenario posted earlier in the thread about the doctors and cutting edge research on restoring neural pathways, and whatnot.  The fact is that Shepard died, and then was brought back.  This is an enormous, momentous event, and it's barely mentioned, and almost no one in the game has anything to say about it.

I disagree with many of smudboy's points about the plot of ME2, but this?  I agree here.

[Zulu_DFA]

@ Moiaussi

One last time, Mr. Pun in My Nick,

BioWare said that the Normandy had stopped. It means that she was stopped by Joker, before he shut off the drive. And whatever you're getting from the cutscene, you're getting it wrong. Either because it's just you, or the BioWare animators failed to properly translate what the BioWare writers were trying to tell you.

Next, and last. Like some like to say, the absense of evidence is not the evidence of absence. But to me, there is plenty of evidence about the Mako role in Shepard's survival. And it's all there, in the Normandy Crash Site DLC pack. And it starts with the very fact of this DLC's existence. There ain't any "pew-pew" stuff in it, so it's there primarily for the story purposes. Why would they even make it if they didn't bother at all with how the hell Shepard was recovered?

[Sundance31us]

Apologies if this was covered already:



http://www.memorylos...ippocampus.html

"The hippocampus is critical for the formation of new autobiographical and fact memories. It may function as a memory "gateway" through which new memories must pass before entering permanent storage in the brain. Hippocampal damage can result in anterograde amnesia: loss of ability to form new memories, although older memories may be safe."



http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Bio-amps

"In humans, the implant is usually placed at the base of the skull for convenient access..."



Shepard's L3 implant may have maintained his memories Unfortunately the hippocampus and the "base of the skull" are not really that close; though in sci-fi terms it's still a possibility depending on how the thing was hooked up and powered.



Just a thought.

[Casuist]

.... so the last remaining issue with the freezing is the formation of ice crystals in brain cells, a problem which could be averted even with modern technology and the hardsuit being set up to inject an antifreeze compound into the bloodstream. - which would be a fairly reasonable measure for a suit you put on under threat of your ship breaking up around you.



....not that I wouldn't appreciate some in-depth explanations in-game, but basically only Wilson and Miranda could have been qualified to have that conversation, and it's generally more detail than your average player requires or particularly desire to hear. Nothing needs to be fundamentally changed about what is shown in the game.

[ladydesire]

Zulu_DFA: Nice theory, but Mako 1 was in the cargo drop bay, and Shepard was drifting in space the last time we knew.

[Saibh]

ladydesire wrote...

Zulu_DFA: Nice theory, but Mako 1 was in the cargo drop bay, and Shepard was drifting in space the last time we knew.

I assumed it was exploded out of the Normandy or something. And Shepard hopped into it as it drifted past her or something.

[Nozybidaj]

Saibh wrote...

ladydesire wrote...

Zulu_DFA: Nice theory, but Mako 1 was in the cargo drop bay, and Shepard was drifting in space the last time we knew.

I assumed it was exploded out of the Normandy or something. And Shepard hopped into it as it drifted past her or something.

At first I kinda did a /slapforehead on this.  Then I thought about it and realized, that really isn't anymore far fetched than a lot of the other stuff that ME2 presented to us, so why not. 

Shepard space swam to the Mako and entered the vehicle before plummeting to the planet's surface.  Once inside the Mako he covered himself in barbeque sausce, thus making himself fireproof, hence why his brain survived intact.  Makes perfect sense if you don't think about it.

[Commander_David]

Ksandor wrote...

You can't bring Shepard back from dead -- it is impossible.

If you are brain dead your neurons and neural pathways and protein based memory molecules decompose. Since nobody knows what protein based memories and neural pathways Shepard had in life reconstructing them is impossible (you can't reconstruct memories and the personality).

Besides quantum mechanics says 100% reproduction is impossible. Especially when it comes to a complex system like a thinking brain. Unless there was some sort of hibernation mechanism in Shepard's suit reviving a brain dead person is impossible.

If I were Bioware I would create circumstances where Shepard's brain could be salvaged more or less intact. At least they did not clearly state that Shepard fell to the planet. No "body" can survive that. Simple impact would pulverize the body even if the atmosphere does not contain oxygen so the body would not burn. Maybe Shepard's body was in orbit and his body suit's emergency systems preserved him to some degree. Any specifics about this in Redemption comic?

The solution would be to imply that Shepard's body recovered from orbit and the suit protected him from extreme decomposition -- especially an emergency mechanism which protected his brain. This would not directly conflict with Jacob when he said Shepard was dead as dead can be and Miranda when he summarizes the extensive damage Shepard suffered. If your brain is preserved bringing you back from dead should be possible with future tech.

I wish they just said that Shepard was in comma for 2 years. That was the most plausible solution but Bioware wanted to scandalize audience with this flashy death idea so instead they have chosen this Hollywood no brainer. They should retcon this without conflicting Mass Effect 2.

Or maybe you should play a more realistic game like The Sims.

Go watch your childrens sci-fi like Star Trek and Stargate and leave us Mass Effect fans alone please.

Thank you.

[Inquisitor Recon]

Wow. I should hit you in the head with something heavy.

[MobiusTyr]

ITS A VIDEO GAME - WHO GIVES A FLYING **** - YOU NERDS

Modifié par MobiusTyr, 07 octobre 2010 - 08:18 .

[Nozybidaj]

MobiusTyr wrote...

ITS A VIDEO GAME - WHO GIVES A FLYING **** - YOU NERDS

I sense much hatred (and irony) in your post.

[Sundance31us]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Shepard space swam to the Mako and entered the vehicle before plummeting to the planet's surface.  Once inside the Mako he covered himself in barbeque sausce, thus making himself fireproof, hence why his brain survived intact.  Makes perfect sense if you don't think about it.

Inspiration:
http://social.biowar...874/348#4980064

[Nozybidaj]

Sundance31us wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

Shepard space swam to the Mako and entered the vehicle before plummeting to the planet's surface.  Once inside the Mako he covered himself in barbeque sausce, thus making himself fireproof, hence why his brain survived intact.  Makes perfect sense if you don't think about it.

Inspiration:
http://social.biowar...874/348#4980064

Bwahahaha, that's good stuff right there.

[Praetor Knight]

First I want to say that the science in mass effect is more grounded in facts then one would realize at first glance.

The issue of Shepard's survival depends on the landing, how cold the planet is (-7 F), and how fast he freezes in that environment with a broken body and suit ruptures, then entering severe stage 3 hypothermia which can at least prolong the onset of brain death.

In the openning video: it shows the Normandy very close to the planet so
it seems that Shepard was caught in the gravity well, which is why he enters freefall, which I think is important in successfully bringing Shep back.

In the modern military, paratroopers and other specialists do halo jumps
from high orbit, which are high risk, high reward jumps, there are techniques used to keep the body going for the jump.

And
Shep is N7 qualified, so the problem is how soon would he lose his
oxygen reserves in freefall and if and when he blacks out, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HALO_jump, also the planet Alchera has a lower mass and gravity then Earth, so he would not freefall as fast as he would on earth.

I have a cousin who was a paratrooper and there were
stories of guys falling without the parachute openning and surviving the
fall or hitting so hard they died from the massive impact. The key was
altitude, velocity and body control!

if the body is limber (and /or you are unconcious) you can
roll / ragdoll into the impact, sustaining minor injuries (kinda like drunk drivers surviving car crashes), so it is possible to survive the freefall. but if you're too fast and rigid / tense you
can go from being 5'8" to 3'2" if you land feet first from the impact on earth.

Also, here is a section telling some stories of people without special training or equipment surviving freefall http://en.wikipedia....Surviving_falls. So
we know that shepard's skeleton was mangled from the Lazarus video and
loading screen, so he was either conscious or had a very rough landing.

lastly, as long as his brain is mostly intact after impact then the brain
can recover, especially if through the standard genetic modification they would recieve in his century and / or medigel providing vitrification (which will prevent ice from destroying his brain tissues), his memory and personality could then be recovered as his body is rebuilt in the Lazarus Project.

The brain is a wonderful thing, many people have survived severe hypothermia,
nasty concussions, gunshots to the brain and other brain trauma and have lived to tell about it. So it's not that big a stretch for me that he is brought back in 2185 .

On another related, interesting note: The force of Earth's gravity on a human being with a mass of 70 kg (154 lbs) is approximately 686 Newtons, more if you weigh more like me. So if Shepard is freefalling on a planet with a smaller mass the force
is even less, kinda puts biotics within the realm of possibility for me and helps make his resurrection seem real enough in the future.

[Sundance31us]

http://en.wikipedia....spheric_reentry



What about the heat from atmospheric reentry?



All kidding aside the image in the link I posted above (not in this post) does show severe burns to Shepard's body; I'd even go so far as to say those are severe burns to internal organs.

Of course none of the images appear to be brain tissue and you do find his helmet intact, but the rest of his body clearly suffered extreme trauma.

[Casuist]

It's fairly clear that Shepard is interacting with the atmosphere rather quickly in the video- if the body does not build up adequate speed before falling well into the atmosphere then "burning up on reentry" is avoidable.

[StarcloudSWG]

Well, obviously, his armor was strong enough to absorb and survive the heat. The parts we see are in bad shape, but clearly still in good enough shape to be recognizably what they are.

[ladydesire]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

So it still has to be the original Shepard's brain in this new half-cybernetic body, to make it the same Shepard, "exactly as you were".

One thing that you're not considering is that perhaps everything that made Shepard Shepard was stored elsewhere; you do remember that Shepard interacted with more than one Prothian artifact, right? What if those items did more than simply transmit messages over long distances, like actually storing the personalities of those individuals that used them? As I recall from Mass Effect, Shepard's first encounter with one of those ended rather painfully, but once the language was known, the second interaction enables greater comprehension of what was to come; what if a side effect of that second interaction either changed Shepard in some way, making him (or her) in some way like the Prothians, or stored Shepard's self (personality and memories) intact.

[Zulu_DFA]

ladydesire wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

So it still has to be the original Shepard's brain in this new half-cybernetic body, to make it the same Shepard, "exactly as you were".

One thing that you're not considering is that perhaps everything that made Shepard Shepard was stored elsewhere; you do remember that Shepard interacted with more than one Prothian artifact, right? What if those items did more than simply transmit messages over long distances, like actually storing the personalities of those individuals that used them? As I recall from Mass Effect, Shepard's first encounter with one of those ended rather painfully, but once the language was known, the second interaction enables greater comprehension of what was to come; what if a side effect of that second interaction either changed Shepard in some way, making him (or her) in some way like the Prothians, or stored Shepard's self (personality and memories) intact.

Nice try, but (1) how did Cerberus manage to find a way to transcribe it back on new Shepard's body? and (2) how could Shepard remember the events that took place after he interacted with the beacons (like who was appointed the New Council's chairman)?

I admit, the Mako theory is a stretch of belief, but it's the smallest stretch yet.

[Saibh]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Nice try, but (1) how did Cerberus manage to find a way to transcribe it back on new Shepard's body? and (2) how could Shepard remember the events that took place after he interacted with the beacons (like who was appointed the New Council's chairman)?

I admit, the Mako theory is a stretch of belief, but it's the smallest stretch yet.

I liked the idea that a biotic plant could store your memories--as for non-biotic Shepards, the fact that you can have a biotic bonus power tells me Shepard always has biotic capabilities, and perhaps always has the plants even if they aren't doing her any good.

[StarcloudSWG]

If there'd been a video log, something like, 'Wilson tells me we were lucky. Shepard's armor, in addition to keeping the body mostly together, also had a trauma module whose activation preserved the neural links in Shepard's brain. Without that, we couldn't have proceeded with the project." Then it would have been a lot more straightforward.

[Praetor Knight]

Sundance31us wrote...

http://en.wikipedia....spheric_reentry

What about the heat from atmospheric reentry?

All kidding aside the image in the link I posted above (not in this post) does show severe burns to Shepard's body; I'd even go so far as to say those are severe burns to internal organs.
Of course none of the images appear to be brain tissue and you do find his helmet intact, but the rest of his body clearly suffered extreme trauma.

Well the wiki article is for Earth reentry of large and heavier equipment then a person who should not weigh more then 290lbs w/ armor, Alchera does not have the the same type of atmo (it may not be as high in altitude, but it is described as thick), its mass is more, its larger then Earth, it rotates slower then Earth and there is less gravitational force.

From the article:

An important aspect of modeling non-equilibrium real gas effects is radiative heat flux. If a vehicle is entering an atmosphere at very high speed (hyperbolic trajectory, lunar return) and has a large nose radius then radiative heat flux can dominate TPS heating. Radiative heat flux during entry into an air or carbon dioxide atmosphere typically comes from unsymmetric diatomic molecules; e.g., cyanogen (CN), carbon monoxide, nitric oxide (NO), single ionized molecular nitrogen, et cetera. These molecules are formed by the shock wave dissociating ambient atmospheric gas followed by recombination within the shock layer into new molecular species. The newly formed diatomic molecules initially have a very high vibrational temperature that efficiently transforms the vibrational energy into radiant energy; i.e., radiative heat flux. The whole process takes place in less than a millisecond which makes modeling a challenge. 

So if Shep was entering Earth atmo then it would matter since the amount of heat generated will be spot on, but the math will be different along with the air resistance (and different mix of gases, mostly methane and ammonia) to reach the radiative heat flux and terminal velocity in free fall. 

Also he is not falling out of orbit or coming from a planetary satellite like the moon, with velocity, he is very close to the planet with him and the ship being pulled towards the planet after his suit is ruptured.

so it could be freeze burns from suit rupture and suit failures after impact that are shown, also since his head seemed mostly intact.

I wonder who was consulted for the death and Lazarus section, they could shed light either way.

[DTKT]

It's a video game.



While it's an incredibly lame response, it's the one I find the most satisfying. I dont see why every single event should be analyzed from our perspective.



Because, after all, they are in space!

[Sundance31us]

Saibh wrote...

I liked the idea that a biotic plant could store your memories--as for non-biotic Shepards, the fact that you can have a biotic bonus power tells me Shepard always has biotic capabilities, and perhaps always has the plants even if they aren't doing her any good.

I don't think the biotic implant itself would store the memories since its function was to act as a conduit/amplifier for biotic powers. My thought was whether there would be any residual biotic energy in the implant that might somehow sustain brain tissue like the hippocampus long enough for Cerberus to recover/restore it.
Even with this theory I would say without hesitation that Shepard died shortly after the Normandy’s destruction.

Edit: missed a quote box

Modifié par Sundance31us, 08 octobre 2010 - 01:49 .