931 réponses à ce sujet

[Beerfish]

Terraneaux wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

As we know we have mass effect fields and light travel and understand them perfectly. Using the laws of physics and the things we know and accept today can easily just be swept away by a pen in science fiction and that is the beauty of the genre otherwise the genre might be called Science fact.

No, that in fact makes it space fantasy, not science fiction.

So the genre of science fiction has just shrunk to a very very small and miniscule size is what you are saying?

We are using a well known and established name for a genre of literature, or games here.  The famous authors of that genre are not know as writing science fantasy and in most cases you won't find that category in your local book store.

25 or 30 years ago you could easily write about things that would be considered pure fantasy and yet they have come to pass today.

[Kroesis-]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Kroesis- wrote...

Raxxman wrote...

Kroesis- wrote...
Not sure about the speed upon hitting the atmosphere, but I'd say he hit the ground bloody fast. Not sure how much protection from what was left of his armour would give him but I doubt it'd be much. Hard ground is hard.

 Strange things do happen, Shepard could of hit lightly packed snow at the right angle.

Can't deny that, but I believe in both cases the parachutists were both concious and weren't freefalling from the very top of the planets atmosphere. Obviously I don't have the distance of ground to top of the atmosphere and even if I did, I'm probably not going to be able to calculate speeds.

You would achieve maximum velocity after about 15 seconds of freefall so it wouldn't matter if you were at the top of the atmosphere or jumping from a low flying aircraft.

Assuming Shep's suit had kinetic barriers, which is sufficient to re-direct some of the impact energy, its conceivable that his body wasn't a pile of goo.

Raxxman wrote...

"He remembered tumbling,"
Jenkins said. But at that altitude, Magee
quickly lost
consciousness.

The first guy was unconscious, didn't
have the genetic mods that Shepard had, didn't have the state of the art
armour with kinetic barriers Shepard had, and unlike Shepard, survived
the crash.

It's just not impossible that Shepard survived the
crash relatively intact., improbable, but then again meeting up with
your entire old crew and a half dozen people you previously helped on
different planets out of thousands of planets and billions upon billions
of lives is improbable too.

Yeah, re-read that part again.

Oh I agree that it's conceivable and there are lots of factors which we don't know such as availability of kinetic barriers, orientation, impact location etc.. but he would still have hit the ground damn hard, not goo hard but certainly enough to cause heavy damage to the body.

Modifié par Kroesis-, 19 juillet 2010 - 05:00 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

@Raxxman: I often wonder about that; reuniting with your old crew/friends and all. The galaxy isn't THAT small. But then again, ME2 mainly takes place within the Terminus Systems, which I believe have their own popular "landmarks". Omega, for example, is a place where you'd expect to see just about anyone. It's still kind of far-fetched, though.

[smudboy]

pprrff wrote...

@smudboy, the 2D imprint refers to the holographic representation of the universe at its boundary.

[Fluffeh Kitteh]

Ksandor wrote...

You can't bring Shepard back from dead -- it is impossible.

If you are brain dead your neurons and neural pathways and protein based memory molecules decompose. Since nobody knows what protein based memories and neural pathways Shepard had in life reconstructing them is impossible (you can't reconstruct memories and the personality).

Besides quantum mechanics says 100% reproduction is impossible. Especially when it comes to a complex system like a thinking brain. Unless there was some sort of hibernation mechanism in Shepard's suit reviving a brain dead person is impossible.

If I were Bioware I would create circumstances where Shepard's brain could be salvaged more or less intact. At least they did not clearly state that Shepard fell to the planet. No "body" can survive that. Simple impact would pulverize the body even if the atmosphere does not contain oxygen so the body would not burn. Maybe Shepard's body was in orbit and his body suit's emergency systems preserved him to some degree. Any specifics about this in Redemption comic?

The solution would be to imply that Shepard's body recovered from orbit and the suit protected him from extreme decomposition -- especially an emergency mechanism which protected his brain. This would not directly conflict with Jacob when he said Shepard was dead as dead can be and Miranda when he summarizes the extensive damage Shepard suffered. If your brain is preserved bringing you back from dead should be possible with future tech.

I wish they just said that Shepard was in comma for 2 years. That was the most plausible solution but Bioware wanted to scandalize audience with this flashy death idea so instead they have chosen this Hollywood no brainer. They should retcon this without conflicting Mass Effect 2.

Bringing people back from the dead is nothing. The ME universe has tons of crazies that will take your suspension of disbelief to the very edge. I'm guessing that in ME3 we discover that you can time travel though the mass relays...

Seriosuly though, this is how the ME universe works. It goes to that very extent, like it or not. There is very little in this universe that actually is believable once you scratch the surface beneath all the funny sci fi terminologies and fluff.

[Zulu_DFA]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Assuming Shep's suit had kinetic barriers, which is sufficient to re-direct some of the impact energy, its conceivable that his body wasn't a pile of goo.

Re-direct it where? Do you mean that the whole f*ckin planet is gonna move a little, to make Shepard's stop less abrupt? You see, when a train hits you at 100 mph (and that's about the softest version of what would happen to Shepard if he wasn't in the Mako, based on the most conserative estimate of his terminal velocity), you undergo an acceleration (or deceleration in Shepard's case) from 0 to 100 mph in a fraction of a second. Which means all blood vessels in your body will like explode. Even if there was 50 meters deep mushy snow it would compress under Shepard's weight and speed in less than a second without significantly decearsing his speed, and it still would mean deceleartion with the force of hundreds of Gs at the bottom.

Even if Shepard could by chance hit some shoulder of a mountain at a steep angle, that somewhat gradually decreased his speed, he still would suffer enough internal injuries to die long before help arrived. His body would freeze down to the surrounding environment temperature very fast, which means all the water inside his brain (and all other) cells would expand when turning into ice and every cell would be destroyed. And no resurrection after that, sorry. We Humans are not beings of light or quants or even proteins. We are beings of cells, no way around it, no physics or even mass effect "magic" can help, when the rough biology fails. All cells could be replaced, but the brain cells. All information is lost when the hardware is destroyed.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 19 juillet 2010 - 07:55 .

[Whatever42]

I'm not really in full understanding of mass effect magic but it appears to adjust mass within a small space/time. Less mass means less energy from an impact. Where that energy goes, I have no idea. Maybe you have a better understanding of the imaginary physics of this universe.



But here's a point. In the ME universe, there is sound in space. That means that the substance and physics of that universe is substancially different than our own. In which case, all bets are off.

[KainrycKarr]

Dusty Everman wrote...

smudboy wrote...

http://social.biowar...93197/7#2709226

However Shepard is not starting at free fall, and we have to assume there are no other objects or air resistance stopping or slowing their descent.  Shepard's moving at the "Velocity Of Detonation", or whatever explosion pushed them into space.  Explosive forces range from 1800-10300m/s, but we'll just go with 5000m/s.  That's roughly 11,000 miles/h, in space.

Shepard instantly went from 0 mph to 11000 mph from the destruction of the cockpit?  The cockpit more breaks apart than explodes, and you see Shepard drift from it at maybe 20mph tops.  I'm no physicist, but this argument seems flawed to me.

You know this would be a lot easier if you(Bioware) would just give some kind of explanation as to why you guys chose such an over-the-top and unnecessary cop out.

You could've just put the man in a coma if you needed a reason to re-train him.

[Il Divo]

KainrycKarr wrote...
You know this would be a lot easier if you(Bioware) would just give some kind of explanation as to why you guys chose such an over-the-top and unnecessary cop out.

You could've just put the man in a coma if you needed a reason to re-train him.

Putting Shepard in a coma would be difficult and would result in Shepard having some connection with his previous life. If your squad members/Alliance/Council were aware that Shepard was alive, they would not have behaved as they did. They would not have gotten over Sheprd. As Illusive Man says, "They've all moved on."  Personally I thought Shepard's death made me feel disconnected from everything in Mass Effect 1, which I liked.

[KainrycKarr]

Il Divo wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...
You know this would be a lot easier if you(Bioware) would just give some kind of explanation as to why you guys chose such an over-the-top and unnecessary cop out.

You could've just put the man in a coma if you needed a reason to re-train him.

Putting Shepard in a coma would be difficult and would result in Shepard having some connection with his previous life. If your squad members/Alliance/Council were aware that Shepard was alive, they would not have behaved as they did. They would not have gotten over Sheprd. As Illusive Man says, "They've all moved on."  Personally I thought Shepard's death made me feel disconnected from everything in Mass Effect 1, which I liked.

I'd say you're in the minority. Killing the guy was just plain stupid, and poor storytelling. What's done is done, I just want an explanation. Anything. Just SOME reason to believe it's even remotely feasonable, and Bioware has pretty much just glossed over it.

Not very classy, and not what I expected from Bioware, who prior to the whole Shep-is-dead thing, I found to be very good storytellers.

Coma can be a lot of things. He could of simply been a vegetable with no hope of recovery(insert Cerberus coming with the proper tech to do the "impossible" by restoring higher brain function. This allows reason to believe Shep would still have his personality, not be a clone, be theoretically dead, and give in-game reason to have to re-train)

[Il Divo]

KainrycKarr wrote...
I'd say you're in the minority. Killing the guy was just plain stupid, and poor storytelling. What's done is done, I just want an explanation. Anything. Just SOME reason to believe it's even remotely feasonable, and Bioware has pretty much just glossed over it.

I could say the same for biotics. Or Mass Effect relays. Codex entries filled with scientific words don't suddenly make teleportation possible.

Coma can be a lot of things. He could of simply been a vegetable with no hope of recovery(insert Cerberus coming with the proper tech to do the "impossible" by restoring higher brain function. This allows reason to believe Shep would still have his personality, not be a clone, be theoretically dead, and give in-game reason to have to re-train)

But if you're calling it the 'impossible' then this does not seem marginally better than killing him off altogether. Again, from a scientific stand-point, it's unfeasible. But so is most of what we come across. Most of it can potentially suspend disbelief, such as this pseudo-Star Wars setting. I personally saw more in Shepard's death than others give it credit for; it set the tone for the rest of the game. And it also made me feel disconnected from everything that once was.

[Annie_Dear]

Ksandor wrote...

You can't bring Shepard back from dead -- it is impossible.

If you are brain dead your neurons and neural pathways and protein based memory molecules decompose. Since nobody knows what protein based memories and neural pathways Shepard had in life reconstructing them is impossible (you can't reconstruct memories and the personality).

Besides quantum mechanics says 100% reproduction is impossible. Especially when it comes to a complex system like a thinking brain. Unless there was some sort of hibernation mechanism in Shepard's suit reviving a brain dead person is impossible.

If I were Bioware I would create circumstances where Shepard's brain could be salvaged more or less intact. At least they did not clearly state that Shepard fell to the planet. No "body" can survive that. Simple impact would pulverize the body even if the atmosphere does not contain oxygen so the body would not burn. Maybe Shepard's body was in orbit and his body suit's emergency systems preserved him to some degree. Any specifics about this in Redemption comic?

The solution would be to imply that Shepard's body recovered from orbit and the suit protected him from extreme decomposition -- especially an emergency mechanism which protected his brain. This would not directly conflict with Jacob when he said Shepard was dead as dead can be and Miranda when he summarizes the extensive damage Shepard suffered. If your brain is preserved bringing you back from dead should be possible with future tech.

I wish they just said that Shepard was in comma for 2 years. That was the most plausible solution but Bioware wanted to scandalize audience with this flashy death idea so instead they have chosen this Hollywood no brainer. They should retcon this without conflicting Mass Effect 2.

You forgot something:

[RiouHotaru]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Assuming Shep's suit had kinetic barriers, which is sufficient to re-direct some of the impact energy, its conceivable that his body wasn't a pile of goo.

Re-direct it where? Do you mean that the whole f*ckin planet is gonna move a little, to make Shepard's stop less abrupt? You see, when a train hits you at 100 mph (and that's about the softest version of what would happen to Shepard if he wasn't in the Mako, based on the most conserative estimate of his terminal velocity), you undergo an acceleration (or deceleration in Shepard's case) from 0 to 100 mph in a fraction of a second. Which means all blood vessels in your body will like explode. Even if there was 50 meters deep mushy snow it would compress under Shepard's weight and speed in less than a second without significantly decearsing his speed, and it still would mean deceleartion with the force of hundreds of Gs at the bottom.

Even if Shepard could by chance hit some shoulder of a mountain at a steep angle, that somewhat gradually decreased his speed, he still would suffer enough internal injuries to die long before help arrived. His body would freeze down to the surrounding environment temperature very fast, which means all the water inside his brain (and all other) cells would expand when turning into ice and every cell would be destroyed. And no resurrection after that, sorry. We Humans are not beings of light or quants or even proteins. We are beings of cells, no way around it, no physics or even mass effect "magic" can help, when the rough biology fails. All cells could be replaced, but the brain cells. All information is lost when the hardware is destroyed.

Except if you have TIM, 4 billion credits, and virtually every available technology and scientific mind at your disposal.  200 years in the future and I'm willing to take the leap that science can do amazing things.

Seeing as how Miranda's dad made her and her sister essentially from his own DNA and then basically made them "perfect" proves that with enough money and resources people can do the craziest crap in the ME universe.  Finding a way to counteract brain-death is definitely NOT out of the question.

[EricHVela]

Did the big bad plot device give someone scary dreams?

Are we really talking about such a level of realism in a game that has a film-grain effect? (It would seem that a Hollywood plot device is wholly appropriate to a film-based-era movie. Please, turn off your cell phones and enjoy the movie!)

[LyletheBloody]

Yeah..... I'm going to file this under not an issue.

[Haadurin]

Ksandor wrote...
I wish they just said that Shepard was in comma for 2 years.

Ksandor wrote...
Shepard was in
comma for 2 years.

Ksandor wrote...

Shepard was in
comma

Ksandor wrote...


COMMA

Damnit, people, if you're going to try to make an argument about something the game devs got wrong in your eyes, at least check your freaking grammar! I've never understood this idiocy. It's not comma, it's COMA. It's not gammer, it's GAMER. It's not furry, it's FURY. Seriously people, what is with the consonants?

A little rant-y, but my point being-- if you're trying to make an argument, you ruin all credibility by not proofreading.

Also, who's to say that they don't have additional technologies in the future? It is SCIENCE FICTION after all, not to mention it's a videogame.

[Jigero]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Assuming Shep's suit had kinetic barriers, which is sufficient to re-direct some of the impact energy, its conceivable that his body wasn't a pile of goo.

Re-direct it where? Do you mean that the whole f*ckin planet is gonna move a little, to make Shepard's stop less abrupt? You see, when a train hits you at 100 mph (and that's about the softest version of what would happen to Shepard if he wasn't in the Mako, based on the most conserative estimate of his terminal velocity), you undergo an acceleration (or deceleration in Shepard's case) from 0 to 100 mph in a fraction of a second. Which means all blood vessels in your body will like explode. Even if there was 50 meters deep mushy snow it would compress under Shepard's weight and speed in less than a second without significantly decearsing his speed, and it still would mean deceleartion with the force of hundreds of Gs at the bottom.

Even if Shepard could by chance hit some shoulder of a mountain at a steep angle, that somewhat gradually decreased his speed, he still would suffer enough internal injuries to die long before help arrived. His body would freeze down to the surrounding environment temperature very fast, which means all the water inside his brain (and all other) cells would expand when turning into ice and every cell would be destroyed. And no resurrection after that, sorry. We Humans are not beings of light or quants or even proteins. We are beings of cells, no way around it, no physics or even mass effect "magic" can help, when the rough biology fails. All cells could be replaced, but the brain cells. All information is lost when the hardware is destroyed.

Thre is no proof he hit the planet, Miranda said he was was exposed to a vaccum for prolonged periods, (IE he wasn't in an atmosphere). Even if it looked like he was entering he could have very well skipped out of the atmosphere. Which is more then likley considering the the suit's mass effect feilds. Atompheres are like water, hit them at the right angle you plunge into them, hit them at the wrong angle you bounce right off of them.

[KainrycKarr]

Il Divo wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...
I'd say you're in the minority. Killing the guy was just plain stupid, and poor storytelling. What's done is done, I just want an explanation. Anything. Just SOME reason to believe it's even remotely feasonable, and Bioware has pretty much just glossed over it.

I could say the same for biotics. Or Mass Effect relays. Codex entries filled with scientific words don't suddenly make teleportation possible.

Coma can be a lot of things. He could of simply been a vegetable with no hope of recovery(insert Cerberus coming with the proper tech to do the "impossible" by restoring higher brain function. This allows reason to believe Shep would still have his personality, not be a clone, be theoretically dead, and give in-game reason to have to re-train)

But if you're calling it the 'impossible' then this does not seem marginally better than killing him off altogether. Again, from a scientific stand-point, it's unfeasible. But so is most of what we come across. Most of it can potentially suspend disbelief, such as this pseudo-Star Wars setting. I personally saw more in Shepard's death than others give it credit for; it set the tone for the rest of the game. And it also made me feel disconnected from everything that once was.

No, you can't say the same thing about biotics and relays precisely BECAUSE of those codex entries. They have in-game explanations, theories, regardless of actual practicality or science.

There is NONE for bringing shep to life. none. Not even fake science. Noone even mentions it, or seems to care that a terrorist organization basically unlocked the key to immortality. It happens, and we're expected to accept it, as well as the rest of the known galaxy, and nobody says ANYTHING.

and when I said impossible regarding the coma, I put it quotations to indicate the difference between theoretically, and physically impossible(death) and just extremely unlikely given known technology(coma)

 You can't restore a physically dead brain to pre-dead status while retaining personality, emotions, and traits. It is impossible in every meaning of the word.

It is slighlty less impossible to simply re-boot a brain that is basically in long-term stand-by mode(coma).

Modifié par KainrycKarr, 19 juillet 2010 - 08:57 .

[KainrycKarr]

Annie_Dear wrote...

Ksandor wrote...

You can't bring Shepard back from dead -- it is impossible.

If you are brain dead your neurons and neural pathways and protein based memory molecules decompose. Since nobody knows what protein based memories and neural pathways Shepard had in life reconstructing them is impossible (you can't reconstruct memories and the personality).

Besides quantum mechanics says 100% reproduction is impossible. Especially when it comes to a complex system like a thinking brain. Unless there was some sort of hibernation mechanism in Shepard's suit reviving a brain dead person is impossible.

If I were Bioware I would create circumstances where Shepard's brain could be salvaged more or less intact. At least they did not clearly state that Shepard fell to the planet. No "body" can survive that. Simple impact would pulverize the body even if the atmosphere does not contain oxygen so the body would not burn. Maybe Shepard's body was in orbit and his body suit's emergency systems preserved him to some degree. Any specifics about this in Redemption comic?

The solution would be to imply that Shepard's body recovered from orbit and the suit protected him from extreme decomposition -- especially an emergency mechanism which protected his brain. This would not directly conflict with Jacob when he said Shepard was dead as dead can be and Miranda when he summarizes the extensive damage Shepard suffered. If your brain is preserved bringing you back from dead should be possible with future tech.

I wish they just said that Shepard was in comma for 2 years. That was the most plausible solution but Bioware wanted to scandalize audience with this flashy death idea so instead they have chosen this Hollywood no brainer. They should retcon this without conflicting Mass Effect 2.

You forgot something:

Some of us like a feasible story. What the hell happened to ME's fanbase...?

[SandTrout]

The fan-base is fine, we are just willing to accept a 1-time use plot device on something that may or may not be possible.



We do not know the exact condition of Shepard's body at the beginning of ME2 except that it was FUBAR. We do not know where it was when it was retrieved, or how long it took to retrieve it.

[Freakaz0idx]

....it's a video game.

[Jigero]

KainrycKarr wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...
I'd say you're in the minority. Killing the guy was just plain stupid, and poor storytelling. What's done is done, I just want an explanation. Anything. Just SOME reason to believe it's even remotely feasonable, and Bioware has pretty much just glossed over it.

I could say the same for biotics. Or Mass Effect relays. Codex entries filled with scientific words don't suddenly make teleportation possible.

Coma can be a lot of things. He could of simply been a vegetable with no hope of recovery(insert Cerberus coming with the proper tech to do the "impossible" by restoring higher brain function. This allows reason to believe Shep would still have his personality, not be a clone, be theoretically dead, and give in-game reason to have to re-train)

But if you're calling it the 'impossible' then this does not seem marginally better than killing him off altogether. Again, from a scientific stand-point, it's unfeasible. But so is most of what we come across. Most of it can potentially suspend disbelief, such as this pseudo-Star Wars setting. I personally saw more in Shepard's death than others give it credit for; it set the tone for the rest of the game. And it also made me feel disconnected from everything that once was.

No, you can't say the same thing about biotics and relays precisely BECAUSE of those codex entries. They have in-game explanations, theories, regardless of actual practicality or science.

There is NONE for bringing shep to life. none. Not even fake science. Noone even mentions it, or seems to care that a terrorist organization basically unlocked the key to immortality. It happens, and we're expected to accept it, as well as the rest of the known galaxy, and nobody says ANYTHING.

and when I said impossible regarding the coma, I put it quotations to indicate the difference between theoretically, and physically impossible(death) and just extremely unlikely given known technology(coma)

 You can't restore a physically dead brain to pre-dead status while retaining personality, emotions, and traits. It is impossible in every meaning of the word.

It is slighlty less impossible to simply re-boot a brain that is basically in long-term stand-by mode(coma).

Actually if you look back a couple pages I explained how it is possible to effectly "reintsall a brain cloned blank brain" with in Mass Effects setting. Thre isn't one Technology that could do it but there are alot of other tech when combined could do it.

[KainrycKarr]

SandTrout wrote...

The fan-base is fine, we are just willing to accept a 1-time use plot device on something that may or may not be possible.

We do not know the exact condition of Shepard's body at the beginning of ME2 except that it was FUBAR. We do not know where it was when it was retrieved, or how long it took to retrieve it.

Please...please actually read posts. I am WILLING to accept the whole thing if Bioware would just give a reason, or any kind of acknowledgement or explanation as to why it is possible in the ME universe.

I can suspend disbelief, if I am given reason to.

[KainrycKarr]

Jigero wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...
I'd say you're in the minority. Killing the guy was just plain stupid, and poor storytelling. What's done is done, I just want an explanation. Anything. Just SOME reason to believe it's even remotely feasonable, and Bioware has pretty much just glossed over it.

I could say the same for biotics. Or Mass Effect relays. Codex entries filled with scientific words don't suddenly make teleportation possible.

Coma can be a lot of things. He could of simply been a vegetable with no hope of recovery(insert Cerberus coming with the proper tech to do the "impossible" by restoring higher brain function. This allows reason to believe Shep would still have his personality, not be a clone, be theoretically dead, and give in-game reason to have to re-train)

But if you're calling it the 'impossible' then this does not seem marginally better than killing him off altogether. Again, from a scientific stand-point, it's unfeasible. But so is most of what we come across. Most of it can potentially suspend disbelief, such as this pseudo-Star Wars setting. I personally saw more in Shepard's death than others give it credit for; it set the tone for the rest of the game. And it also made me feel disconnected from everything that once was.

No, you can't say the same thing about biotics and relays precisely BECAUSE of those codex entries. They have in-game explanations, theories, regardless of actual practicality or science.

There is NONE for bringing shep to life. none. Not even fake science. Noone even mentions it, or seems to care that a terrorist organization basically unlocked the key to immortality. It happens, and we're expected to accept it, as well as the rest of the known galaxy, and nobody says ANYTHING.

and when I said impossible regarding the coma, I put it quotations to indicate the difference between theoretically, and physically impossible(death) and just extremely unlikely given known technology(coma)

 You can't restore a physically dead brain to pre-dead status while retaining personality, emotions, and traits. It is impossible in every meaning of the word.

It is slighlty less impossible to simply re-boot a brain that is basically in long-term stand-by mode(coma).

Actually if you look back a couple pages I explained how it is possible to effectly "reintsall a brain cloned blank brain" with in Mass Effects setting. Thre isn't one Technology that could do it but there are alot of other tech when combined could do it.

Which is fine, if Bioware would simply mention it. A codex entry. Something. any kind of ingame explanation would do.