931 réponses à ce sujet

[Il Divo]

KainrycKarr wrote...
But to utterly replace without alteration and without error, the entire fragile psychological existence of sapient being is a whole nother world, and not something to underestimate.

It deserves an explanation, however bullcrapped it is, far more than something as simple as medi-gel.

Considering how important it is to the first game, I would think indoctrination would require some explanation. I personally am baffled how a sentient metal ship is able to emit a signal which causes the mind to become compelled to follow its orders. But Mass Effect certainly got away with no explanation on that.

[KainrycKarr]

wulf3n wrote...

EatChildren wrote...
Already read it and all it does is explain what it does, not how it works. Its a magical cure-all gel that can repair all kinds of wounds with little issue.

but there's a difference between having some information and none.

With medi-gel they don't go into the techn specifics of how the gel actually works, but they say it heals you by stopping bleeding, stopping pain, with mild regenerative properties.

With FTL they don't go into the technical specifics on how a Mass Effect Field works, but they do explain how one is created.

As far as i'm aware they don't really explain what was done to bring shepard back to life, just that they spent a lot of time and a lot of money, correct me if im wrong.

All that was displayed was essentially cerberus throwing money at it til it worked. Not even mentioned afterward.

[KainrycKarr]

Il Divo wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...
But to utterly replace without alteration and without error, the entire fragile psychological existence of sapient being is a whole nother world, and not something to underestimate.

It deserves an explanation, however bullcrapped it is, far more than something as simple as medi-gel.

Considering how important it is to the first game, I would think indoctrination would require some explanation. I personally am baffled how a sentient metal ship is able to emit a signal which causes the mind to become compelled to follow its orders. But Mass Effect certainly got away with no explanation on that.

Ah but indoctrination is actually talked about, acknowledged, research being done within game to see how reaper and reaper tech works.

Nothing on the resurrection end of the pool. It happened, nobody seems impressed or questions it, it just happened. Even shepard isn't the least bit curious how he was brought back to life.

[EatChildren]

You guys are still grasping at straws, asking for an over complicated explination for a non-issue, while dressing it up as some high-brow intelligent thinking that you posses and that others dont.

Mass Effect never explained how Saren had managed to clone Krogans and cure the genophage within them. It never explained Saren's biomechanical implants (yes, loosely explained in conceptual work, never actually explained). It never explained how the Geth/Reaper piercing rods work, not until ME2, and even then the explination was brushed over. The Thorian was never properly explained. The Keeper's ability to reproduce and maintain the Citadel over millenia was never explained, not beyond "OH THEY PROBABLY HAVE SOME SECRET HIDING PLACE SOMEWHERE". The messed up gravity while scaling the Citadel during the game's climax was never explained.

There were tons and tons and tons and tons of unexplained nonsense in the first game. No surprise, there's just as much in the second game, if not more.

Overthink it all you link, demand an explination, but dont get pissy when you dont get it, or dont get one that satisfies your demands. If you want an RPG or other game that offers a richer explination for its world, go play something by Troika or another developer.

[wulf3n]

EatChildren wrote...

You guys are still grasping at straws, asking for an over complicated explination for a non-issue, while dressing it up as some high-brow intelligent thinking that you posses and that others dont.

Not looking for an over complicated explanation...just any explanation other than, it took time and money!

[Il Divo]

KainrycKarr wrote...
Ah but indoctrination is actually talked about, acknowledged, research being done within game to see how reaper and reaper tech works.

Nothing on the resurrection end of the pool. It happened, nobody seems impressed or questions it, it just happened. Even shepard isn't the least bit curious how he was brought back to life.

And the resurrection wasn't talked about, acknowledged, or researched? The first two hours of the game was all about Shepard coming back to life, so I do believe it was talked about and acknowledged by other characters. We also know that Miranda, Wilson, and top scientists had been researching how to bring Shepard back to life. In a similar vein, that's all we ever learn about Indoctrination: it's talked about, acknowledged, and research was performed. But a scientific explanation was never given, so I don't see how it fares better.

[KainrycKarr]

EatChildren wrote...

You guys are still grasping at straws, asking for an over complicated explination for a non-issue, while dressing it up as some high-brow intelligent thinking that you posses and that others dont.

Mass Effect never explained how Saren had managed to clone Krogans and cure the genophage within them. It never explained Saren's biomechanical implants (yes, loosely explained in conceptual work, never actually explained). It never explained how the Geth/Reaper piercing rods work, not until ME2, and even then the explination was brushed over. The Thorian was never properly explained. The Keeper's ability to reproduce and maintain the Citadel over millenia was never explained, not beyond "OH THEY PROBABLY HAVE SOME SECRET HIDING PLACE SOMEWHERE". The messed up gravity while scaling the Citadel during the game's climax was never explained.

There were tons and tons and tons and tons of unexplained nonsense in the first game. No surprise, there's just as much in the second game, if not more.

Overthink it all you link, demand an explination, but dont get pissy when you dont get it, or dont get one that satisfies your demands. If you want an RPG or other game that offers a richer explination for its world, go play something by Troika or another developer.

Do you not understand the concept of something that's believable and something that's not?

Reviving the dead is just not on the same level as most of the stuff you listed. It's just not.

And, for like the tenth time, the things you list are at least mentioned in some way, dealt with in a conversation or two.

the whole "we brought sheppy back from death" thing consisted of about 2-3 lines before the entire game completely forgot it happened.

You're trying to compare apples and oranges, man.

[KainrycKarr]

Il Divo wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...
Ah but indoctrination is actually talked about, acknowledged, research being done within game to see how reaper and reaper tech works.

Nothing on the resurrection end of the pool. It happened, nobody seems impressed or questions it, it just happened. Even shepard isn't the least bit curious how he was brought back to life.

And the resurrection wasn't talked about, acknowledged, or researched? The first two hours of the game was all about Shepard coming back to life, so I do believe it was talked about and acknowledged by other characters. We also know that Miranda, Wilson, and top scientists had been researching how to bring Shepard back to life. In a similar vein, that's all we ever learn about Indoctrination: it's talked about, acknowledged, and research was performed. But a scientific explanation was never given, so I don't see how it fares better.

No. It pretty much wasn't talked about or acknowledged. There are about 3 lines regarding "hey so you guys made me alive again?" and then it basically gets dropped.

You know what? I'm going to give in on this one. I actually care about realism, but if i'm in the minority in this particularly area, then so be it.

I loved ME1, loved ME2, and will likely enjoy ME3 quite a bit as well. But the story just took a huge dip from being what could have been a brilliant combination of realism and science fiction, into just another science fiction story filled with sh!t with no explanations or logic behind them.

Even Star Wars didn't try something as absurdly cheesey as bringing the dead back to life.

[Clover Rider]

I want Franken Fran to bring Shepard back from the dead if it has to be a retcon.

[wulf3n]

Il Divo wrote...
And the resurrection wasn't talked about, acknowledged, or researched? The first two hours of the game was all about Shepard coming back to life, so I do believe it was talked about and acknowledged by other characters. We also know that Miranda, Wilson, and top scientists had been researching how to bring Shepard back to life. In a similar vein, that's all we ever learn about Indoctrination: it's talked about, acknowledged, and research was performed. But a scientific explanation was never given, so I don't see how it fares better.

Indoctrination and Shepard's Resurrection are completely different things.

Indoctrination is an unknown phenomenum. Thats why people are studying it. No one claims to know how Indoctrination works. Likewise we don't have to know how gravity works to see its effect.

Yet Shepard's Resurrection is a scientific feat that has been accomplished by humans, using existing understood technology, by people we have quite a lot of contact with, but we got nothing more than it took time and money.

[EatChildren]

KainrycKarr wrote...

You're trying to compare apples and oranges, man.

No, I'm really, truly not.

As Il Divo pointed out, the entire opening chapter is full of people (multiple people, mind you) referencing Shepard's ressurrection and the Lazarus Project in particular.

Of the issues I mentioned, Saren's cloning of the Krogans and curing of the genophage is mentioned even less. The only mention it gets is prior to the battle, where you are told "Saren is cloning Krogans, oh he cured the genophage too!". That is it. Nothing else. No extra information. No explanation. No depth. No excuses. No reasoning. No anything. Saren manages to successfully develop a program that can replicate and grow the DNA pattern of complex biological organisms, while curing an otherwise known as incurrable developed disease that is wiping out the species.

Its devolged into even less than Shepard's reconstruction, and is completely ignored for the entirety of Mass Effect 2.

If this achievement of Sarens, of which is massively significant in the universe of Mass Effect, is of no issue to you for its explanation, then Shepard's revival should be similar.

[Il Divo]

KainrycKarr wrote...
No. It pretty much wasn't talked about or acknowledged. There are about 3 lines regarding "hey so you guys made me alive again?" and then it basically gets dropped.

What, were you hoping for a soliloquy? Shepard isn't the type to have deep philosophical reflections. This was a trend continued from Mass Effect 1. If I had just absorbed the entire language, culture, and understanding of an entire race into my mind, I probably wouldn't be acting like everything is A-ok. I don't see death/the mind as being sufficiently different that one deserves exposition while the other does not. I still have no idea how one becomes  a Prothean by interacting with a machine.

[wulf3n]

EatChildren wrote...
Of the issues I mentioned, Saren's cloning of the Krogans and curing of the genophage is mentioned even less. The only mention it gets is prior to the battle, where you are told "Saren is cloning Krogans, oh he cured the genophage too!". That is it. Nothing else. No extra information. No explanation. No depth. No excuses. No reasoning. No anything. Saren manages to successfully develop a program that can replicate and grow the DNA pattern of complex biological organisms, while curing an otherwise known as incurrable developed disease that is wiping out the species.

Well we didn't actually get the chance to ask Saren how he did it, and the codex's only explain things that Shepard himself could actually find out. Yet we have quite a lot of contact with Miranda, The project lead, and Wilson(the head scientist?) yet they never really tell us how they did it, just that it took time and money.

edit: also where does it say the Genophage is incurable? All we know is that Krogans have attempted to pay scientists to cure it but it hasn't worked.

Modifié par wulf3n, 20 juillet 2010 - 03:42 .

[Clover Rider]

wulf3n wrote...

EatChildren wrote...
Of the issues I mentioned, Saren's cloning of the Krogans and curing of the genophage is mentioned even less. The only mention it gets is prior to the battle, where you are told "Saren is cloning Krogans, oh he cured the genophage too!". That is it. Nothing else. No extra information. No explanation. No depth. No excuses. No reasoning. No anything. Saren manages to successfully develop a program that can replicate and grow the DNA pattern of complex biological organisms, while curing an otherwise known as incurrable developed disease that is wiping out the species.

Well we didn't actually get the chance to ask Saren how he did it, and the codex's only explain things that Shepard himself could actually find out. Yet we have quite a lot of contact with Miranda, The project lead, and Wilson(the head scientist?) yet they never really tell us how they did it, just that it took time and money.

They got Franken Fran to do it .

[thegreateski]

Where the hell was Frankenstein at? Vacation?

[KainrycKarr]

EatChildren wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

You're trying to compare apples and oranges, man.

No, I'm really, truly not.

As Il Divo pointed out, the entire opening chapter is full of people (multiple people, mind you) referencing Shepard's ressurrection and the Lazarus Project in particular.

Of the issues I mentioned, Saren's cloning of the Krogans and curing of the genophage is mentioned even less. The only mention it gets is prior to the battle, where you are told "Saren is cloning Krogans, oh he cured the genophage too!". That is it. Nothing else. No extra information. No explanation. No depth. No excuses. No reasoning. No anything. Saren manages to successfully develop a program that can replicate and grow the DNA pattern of complex biological organisms, while curing an otherwise known as incurrable developed disease that is wiping out the species.

Its devolged into even less than Shepard's reconstruction, and is completely ignored for the entirety of Mass Effect 2.

If this achievement of Sarens, of which is massively significant in the universe of Mass Effect, is of no issue to you for its explanation, then Shepard's revival should be similar.

yea, the whole cloning thing, you are aware that cloning is already possible right? They've done it with sheep.

not an apple.

Please see Wulf3n's post regarding indoctrination, an unknown technology, and what Cerberus used to revive Shepard, a known technology.

One is currently unavailable story-wise because noone has unlocked how that technology works yet. The other should be available, seeing as the people you mention are quite familiar with the technology and thus should be able to give an explanation, however brief or flippant, of how they managed to achieve something people have been trying to do since the dawn of man.

And what you hear in the intro is not talking about it. It's monitoring vital signs. There is *nothing* in the the intro scene, or in the logs you find, that even vaguely describes the technology being used.

Modifié par KainrycKarr, 20 juillet 2010 - 03:43 .

[KainrycKarr]

Il Divo wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...
No. It pretty much wasn't talked about or acknowledged. There are about 3 lines regarding "hey so you guys made me alive again?" and then it basically gets dropped.

What, were you hoping for a soliloquy? Shepard isn't the type to have deep philosophical reflections. This was a trend continued from Mass Effect 1. If I had just absorbed the entire language, culture, and understanding of an entire race into my mind, I probably wouldn't be acting like everything is A-ok. I don't see death/the mind as being sufficiently different that one deserves exposition while the other does not. I still have no idea how one becomes  a Prothean by interacting with a machine.

Uh, it's fairly honest say one might ask a question or two how they are suddenly alive after being dead.

[Il Divo]

wulf3n wrote...
Indoctrination and Shepard's Resurrection are completely different things.

Indoctrination is an unknown phenomenum. Thats why people are studying it. No one claims to know how Indoctrination works. Likewise we don't have to know how gravity works to see its effect.

Yet Shepard's Resurrection is a scientific feat that has been accomplished by humans, using existing understood technology, by people we have quite a lot of contact with, but we got nothing more than it took time and money.

I would still call this splitting hairs in a science fiction game where everyone keeps throwing around words like realism. A piece of metal capable of controlling minds is highly unrealistic, explanation or not. Much like how some here claim they would be satisfied if they had "some explanation" as opposed to none on Shepard's resurrection. I doubt that there would not be an equal number of people here then criticizing whatever explanation was given.

[Il Divo]

KainrycKarr wrote...

Uh, it's fairly honest say one might ask a question or two how they are suddenly alive after being dead.

I would be asking just as many questions if I could suddenly speak or understand Prothean and somehow had become intimately familiar with their culture. Yes, Liara says it's a gradual change, but you're telling me gradually acquiring new memories in your brain wouldn't result in questions? This is the kind of crap that philosophy lives for.

Modifié par Il Divo, 20 juillet 2010 - 03:49 .

[KainrycKarr]

You're still comparing two completely different things that are two different realms of possibility. Conquering death and mind control.



Not. The. Same.

[wulf3n]

Il Divo wrote...
I would be asking just as many questions if I could suddenly speak or understand Prothean and somehow had become intimately familiar with their culture. Yes, Liara says it's a gradual change, but you're telling me gradually acquiring new memories in your brain wouldn't result in questions? This is the kind of crap that philosophy lives for.

Shiala's Cipher

edit: Kinda like the whole brain downloading thingy in the matrix.

Modifié par wulf3n, 20 juillet 2010 - 03:56 .

[KainrycKarr]

Il Divo wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

Uh, it's fairly honest say one might ask a question or two how they are suddenly alive after being dead.

I would be asking just as many questions if I could suddenly speak or understand Prothean and somehow had become intimately familiar with their culture. Yes, Liara says it's a gradual change, but you're telling me gradually acquiring new memories in your brain wouldn't result in questions? This is the kind of crap that philosophy lives for.

There's philosophy and then there's "how in f*** did you manage to do in 2 years with a handful of researchers what the entire rest of the human race couldn't figure out 2000+ years?"

[Inquisitor Recon]

Thats it. I am pulling a turian counciler here. I dismiss any and all claims that Shepard actually died. He instead was just 99% dead and in a coma. The comic claiming otherwise has been dismissed.

DISMISSED!

Modifié par ReconTeam, 20 juillet 2010 - 04:03 .

[thegreateski]

ReconTeam wrote...

Thats it. I am pulling a turian counciler here. I dismiss any and all claims that Shepard actually died. He instead just 99% dead and in a coma. The comic claiming otherwise has been dismissed.

DISMISSED!