95 réponses à ce sujet

[Narreneth]

Guns3 wrote...

There is really no problem with a character returning with lines, that some will not see. They're aren't exactly lacking in money.

...

That is the worst rebuttal I have ever heard.  "Some lines"  It's not a matter of "some lines" it's a matter of completely removing every character from the records or not.  Do you have any idea how long it takes to develop a major character for play throughout a game as large scale as Dragon Age?

Besides that, what you're complaining about doesn't even affect you. If you've already beaten Origins the canon is not going to change your game one iota.  All it does is give a jumping in point for people who a) haven't played lost their save files or c) don't want to import their own save files for whatever reason.   There is absolutely no reason to develop a series as vast as Dragon Age without some canon behind it.  Other than to appease you evidently.

[HolyMoogle]

Canon is simply the wrong word.



It's not that they shouldn't have some kind of default for people who are not importing a DAO save, however 'canon' does not fit that description, as it makes a lie of 90% of the likely experiences people will have with DA2. 'Default' is a much better word.

[Arrtis]

Canon means rule or laws.

In this case History of the previous game in the new game.

They do not need to play the game before to understand.

They do this so players who had played the game before may see changes.

While the new player to the game will not have to go and replay the first game so they get the default/canon choices that afdected the game.

[Narreneth]

HolyMoogle wrote...

Canon is simply the wrong word.

It's not that they shouldn't have some kind of default for people who are not importing a DAO save, however 'canon' does not fit that description, as it makes a lie of 90% of the likely experiences people will have with DA2. 'Default' is a much better word.

There's no reason to argue semantics.  The purpose of this post was to slam the idea of default options.  It doesn't matter whether you call it "canon" "default" or "**** that actually happened"

[TheChris92]

17thknight wrote...

Well, they need some kind of canon.

1. If they allow what you did in DA:O to affect DA2, then the plots/characters/worlds will cross over in some areas.

2. If they don't have a "canon" for it, then how would people with no DA:O save even be able to play the game?

Just because they choose something for you doesn't mean it's what "really" happened, it's just to help out the people who never played the original. With Mass Effect the "canon" has part 1 being pure renegade because this was the least popular way to play the game. IT allowed you to experience ME2 as if ME1 had been pure renegade without forcing you to replay ME1 as a pure renegade. IT was nice.

This might have been mentioned already but, as far as I can understand from Mike Laidlaw, the decisions made both in Origins and Awakening such as who became king/queen of Ferelden, whether you destroyed the anvil or not etc. is gonna affect the world in the second game. I think the "canon" story is probably something that'll be imported into your game if you decided not to import your old saves from Origins, or maybe I misunderstood this. All of his statements are listed here: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/141/index/3153797&lf=8

Modifié par TheChris92, 19 juillet 2010 - 11:10 .

[Vaeliorin]

You know, there's another reason they need to have canon other than just DA2. People seem to forget about it, but there's a DA PnP RPG and if they're going to progress the world at all, there needs to be canon to work from (similarly to why BG needed to have canon as part of the Forgotten Realms.)



So yeah...there's going to be canon whether people like it or not (not that I even remotely understand why people are so opposed to it. It's not like canon has any effect on the game as you play it.)

[Guns3]

Because instead of setting a canonical story for people who haven't even played the game, they could make multiple lines. Think of it like this; The voice actors have to shoot multiple lines in the original depending on what Shepard or the Warden says, well with a successful sequel they will have more money, which means more resources they can put in, which means a better game, which in turn leads to even more money. They could easily have returning characters that aren't necessarily in your squad anymore have more lines in a quest or join you for a brief period and record battle lines for while they are part of your group again. They already drag the voice actors in for minor cameo might as well have them do more.

[HolyMoogle]

Narreneth wrote...

HolyMoogle wrote...

Canon is simply the wrong word.

It's not that they shouldn't have some kind of default for people who are not importing a DAO save, however 'canon' does not fit that description, as it makes a lie of 90% of the likely experiences people will have with DA2. 'Default' is a much better word.

There's no reason to argue semantics.  The purpose of this post was to slam the idea of default options.  It doesn't matter whether you call it "canon" "default" or "**** that actually happened"

No, I mean exactly what I said. 'Default' and 'canon' don't have anything like the same meaning. Canon is "**** that actually happened", yes, and I think that is the problem. What "actually" happened should be up to each player, and if they choose the default, the line the game picks in the abscence of a player specifying otherwise, then fine that's what actually happened.

If you place so much emphasis on making a game where players can determine the outcome, or rather, important details about the player character, having a "canon" which says one particular line is true and others are somehow false or lesser is really problematic.

[Arrtis]

I feel like their are a ton of misunderstandings going on here.

[Narreneth]

HolyMoogle wrote...

Narreneth wrote...

HolyMoogle wrote...

Canon is simply the wrong word.

It's not that they shouldn't have some kind of default for people who are not importing a DAO save, however 'canon' does not fit that description, as it makes a lie of 90% of the likely experiences people will have with DA2. 'Default' is a much better word.

There's no reason to argue semantics.  The purpose of this post was to slam the idea of default options.  It doesn't matter whether you call it "canon" "default" or "**** that actually happened"

No, I mean exactly what I said. 'Default' and 'canon' don't have anything like the same meaning. Canon is "**** that actually happened", yes, and I think that is the problem. What "actually" happened should be up to each player, and if they choose the default, the line the game picks in the abscence of a player specifying otherwise, then fine that's what actually happened.

If you place so much emphasis on making a game where players can determine the outcome, or rather, important details about the player character, having a "canon" which says one particular line is true and others are somehow false or lesser is really problematic.

It is up to each player.  Your decisions import.  Canon is simply what they write for their outside purposes.  You're arguing semantics.  Leave it alone.

[Narreneth]

Guns3 wrote...

Because instead of setting a canonical story for people who haven't even played the game, they could make multiple lines. Think of it like this; The voice actors have to shoot multiple lines in the original depending on what Shepard or the Warden says, well with a successful sequel they will have more money, which means more resources they can put in, which means a better game, which in turn leads to even more money. They could easily have returning characters that aren't necessarily in your squad anymore have more lines in a quest or join you for a brief period and record battle lines for while they are part of your group again. They already drag the voice actors in for minor cameo might as well have them do more.

You realize your own personal decisions import, right?    Your argument that canon makes the characters unable to have extra lines doesn't make any sense.   If a voice actor is doing 10 or 15 lines that's easy.  What you were implying was that you can't have returning characters in a major fashion because of canon which makes no sense whatsoever.  The canon is simply a set of choices that they will make for you if you are starting a game without a set of decisions to import.

[Narreneth]

Oh, and one other thing, Guns: being that DA2 is not a continuation of the story of your Warden and overlaps with Origins' story at least for a little while the likelihood of you seeing the characters as anything but cameos is very small.

If you really want to know what's limiting characters to not having major roles, it's the fact that so much of the world is based on your decisions. They can't put Alistair in the game for any measurable amount of time to help with a quest if there's a possibility he's executed. That's why you have scenes where they can replace that character with someone else. Not because they came up with a bit of canon.

Okay, so that was two more things. So sue me.

Modifié par Narreneth, 19 juillet 2010 - 11:16 .

[HolyMoogle]

Narreneth wrote...

HolyMoogle wrote...

Narreneth wrote...

HolyMoogle wrote...

Canon is simply the wrong word.

It's not that they shouldn't have some kind of default for people who are not importing a DAO save, however 'canon' does not fit that description, as it makes a lie of 90% of the likely experiences people will have with DA2. 'Default' is a much better word.

There's no reason to argue semantics.  The purpose of this post was to slam the idea of default options.  It doesn't matter whether you call it "canon" "default" or "**** that actually happened"

No, I mean exactly what I said. 'Default' and 'canon' don't have anything like the same meaning. Canon is "**** that actually happened", yes, and I think that is the problem. What "actually" happened should be up to each player, and if they choose the default, the line the game picks in the abscence of a player specifying otherwise, then fine that's what actually happened.

If you place so much emphasis on making a game where players can determine the outcome, or rather, important details about the player character, having a "canon" which says one particular line is true and others are somehow false or lesser is really problematic.

It is up to each player.  Your decisions import.  Canon is simply what they write for their outside purposes.  You're arguing semantics.  Leave it alone.

Why on Earth should I leave it alone? The topic is called "Why must there be canon?"

Arguing semantics is when you have two things which essentially mean the same thing, but you're arguing over wording. What I'm talking about are two completely unrelated things - namely, canon, and something for the game to work with when the player doesn't have a save of their own.

If you can't tell the difference, you don't know what canon means.

[Ulicus]

Narreneth wrote...

It is up to each player.  Your decisions import.  Canon is simply what they write for their outside purposes.  You're arguing semantics.  Leave it alone.

He's not, really. The only way DA2's default story would be the "canon" story would be if it was referenced in other Dragon Age media, because then it would demonstrably take precedence over everyone else's imported decisions. If it doesn't take precedence in any way, then it's not a canon, it's simply a "default" for those going in fresh.

The OP simply either doesn't understand/doesn't care that there's a difference and is making a mountain out of a molehill.

I'm not sure why you're getting on HolyMoogle's back when, by all appearances, he disagrees with OP just as much as you do.

[Guns3]

HolyMoogle gets it.

Also DA2 not being a continuation of the Warden's story isn't the point and neither was just canon originally. They shouldn't be making the game in any way for people that haven't played the original. Does that mean people shouldn't discover and play dragon age? No. It means they should go back and play the first one and then progress to the second.

Modifié par Guns3, 19 juillet 2010 - 11:25 .

[Arrtis]

I should have read Daivd Gaiders books of stolen throne and calling before i played DA:O and i still loved it....I see no porblem with not going back.

[syllogi]

Guns3 wrote...

HolyMoogle gets it.

Also DA2 not being a continuation of the Warden's story isn't the point and neither was just canon originally. They shouldn't be making the game in any way for people that haven't played the original. Does that mean people shouldn't discover and play dragon age? No. It means they should go back and play the first one and then progress to the second.

What is the point of excluding new players, especially if this is a new character's story?  And would you want the game, which is told concurrently and after the events of the Blight, to just not mention facts from the first game, if there is no canon?  What if those events are important to the plot?  Or would you make it mandatory for players to import a save to play at all?

[Ulicus]

There's no point in arguing. Might as well let the thread die.

[Narreneth]

Guns3 wrote...

HolyMoogle gets it.

Also DA2 not being a continuation of the Warden's story isn't the point and neither was just canon originally. They shouldn't be making the game in any way for people that haven't played the original. Does that mean people shouldn't discover and play dragon age? No. It means they should go back and play the first one and then progress to the second.

That is not what HolyMoogle is saying.   Are you incapable of reading as well as writing?  His issue is not that canon, or default options exist as is your own.  He simply doesn't think it should be called canon because if it is truly canon by definition then it diminishes the importance of the story that you played through.

You on the other hand are whining and moaning because they have an option for people to come into the game that didn't play the first one.  You have contempt for people coming late to the party to such an extent that you'd be willing to force someone like, say , me who has played Origins to completion 5 or 6 times to play a 6th or 7th time just to play DA:2 if I somehow lost my save files. 

You need to quit pretending that you are superior to someone because you have played a game they have not.  (And before you try to say you're not try to keep in mind that you've already slammed people on more than one occasion for playing a game with "2" in the title if they haven't played the first one) Again:  you're being an elitist ****** and there is no reason for it.  The game having a default background affects you in no way whatsoever.

[Arrtis]

Ulicus wrote...

There's no point in arguing. Might as well let the thread die.

Winner of the most valuble post award.

[Narreneth]

HolyMoogle wrote...

Narreneth wrote...

HolyMoogle wrote...

Narreneth wrote...

HolyMoogle wrote...

Canon is simply the wrong word.

It's not that they shouldn't have some kind of default for people who are not importing a DAO save, however 'canon' does not fit that description, as it makes a lie of 90% of the likely experiences people will have with DA2. 'Default' is a much better word.

There's no reason to argue semantics.  The purpose of this post was to slam the idea of default options.  It doesn't matter whether you call it "canon" "default" or "**** that actually happened"

No, I mean exactly what I said. 'Default' and 'canon' don't have anything like the same meaning. Canon is "**** that actually happened", yes, and I think that is the problem. What "actually" happened should be up to each player, and if they choose the default, the line the game picks in the abscence of a player specifying otherwise, then fine that's what actually happened.

If you place so much emphasis on making a game where players can determine the outcome, or rather, important details about the player character, having a "canon" which says one particular line is true and others are somehow false or lesser is really problematic.

It is up to each player.  Your decisions import.  Canon is simply what they write for their outside purposes.  You're arguing semantics.  Leave it alone.

Why on Earth should I leave it alone? The topic is called "Why must there be canon?"

Arguing semantics is when you have two things which essentially mean the same thing, but you're arguing over wording. What I'm talking about are two completely unrelated things - namely, canon, and something for the game to work with when the player doesn't have a save of their own.

If you can't tell the difference, you don't know what canon means.

Quit acting like an ass.  DURR IF YOU DON'T KNOW THE DIFFERENCE YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IT MEANS DERRPP HURR.  In this case you are arguing semantics.  Why?  Because the developers have chosen to use the word canon to mean the same thing as "default" in this case.  I am fully aware of what the word canon means straight out of a dictionary.

Again, it is not relevant to this topic because the point that the OP was making is not that canon somehow diminishes his choices (like you are saying) but that there should be no way to access backstory in DA:2 if you haven't played DA:O to completion.  If you want to have a discussion of the merits of canon versus staying quiet on the decisions I'd be happy to have one with you, but in this case, in this thread, that is not what the original idea was.

[HolyMoogle]

Narreneth wrote...

HolyMoogle wrote...

Narreneth wrote...

HolyMoogle wrote...

Narreneth wrote...

HolyMoogle wrote...

Canon is simply the wrong word.

It's not that they shouldn't have some kind of default for people who are not importing a DAO save, however 'canon' does not fit that description, as it makes a lie of 90% of the likely experiences people will have with DA2. 'Default' is a much better word.

There's no reason to argue semantics.  The purpose of this post was to slam the idea of default options.  It doesn't matter whether you call it "canon" "default" or "**** that actually happened"

No, I mean exactly what I said. 'Default' and 'canon' don't have anything like the same meaning. Canon is "**** that actually happened", yes, and I think that is the problem. What "actually" happened should be up to each player, and if they choose the default, the line the game picks in the abscence of a player specifying otherwise, then fine that's what actually happened.

If you place so much emphasis on making a game where players can determine the outcome, or rather, important details about the player character, having a "canon" which says one particular line is true and others are somehow false or lesser is really problematic.

It is up to each player.  Your decisions import.  Canon is simply what they write for their outside purposes.  You're arguing semantics.  Leave it alone.

Why on Earth should I leave it alone? The topic is called "Why must there be canon?"

Arguing semantics is when you have two things which essentially mean the same thing, but you're arguing over wording. What I'm talking about are two completely unrelated things - namely, canon, and something for the game to work with when the player doesn't have a save of their own.

If you can't tell the difference, you don't know what canon means.

Quit acting like an ass.  DURR IF YOU DON'T KNOW THE DIFFERENCE YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IT MEANS DERRPP HURR.  In this case you are arguing semantics.  Why?  Because the developers have chosen to use the word canon to mean the same thing as "default" in this case.  I am fully aware of what the word canon means straight out of a dictionary.

Again, it is not relevant to this topic because the point that the OP was making is not that canon somehow diminishes his choices (like you are saying) but that there should be no way to access backstory in DA:2 if you haven't played DA:O to completion.  If you want to have a discussion of the merits of canon versus staying quiet on the decisions I'd be happy to have one with you, but in this case, in this thread, that is not what the original idea was.

Quit going caps and calling people asses over a videogame forum.

The fact that they're calling it canon means that those canonical events of DAO could influence future DA games which don't take into account saves from DAO (which is likely) and also the various comics and books related to DA. I'm not reducing the term simply to the act of importaing a save (or not) into DA2.

The only canonical events in DA should be those which don't take place in the timeline of the games, and events within the games which you cannot influence. But since they're saying a particular line through DAO is 'canon', it means that it could skew all future DA stories to that particular canonical line. Certainly, that might not happen, but since they're using that word, it very well could.

[Aradace]

SirShreK wrote...

There is a need for a canon for the following reason: Books.

If at a later date the Writers decide to grace us with the novelized version of the games, you will find me standing in the queue outside Barnes and Noble or likewise... waiting for the canon storyline....

If you realize the importance of above statement you will KNOW that Maric's story is Canon no matter what..! .EVEN IF they decide to make a game prequel based on his exploits, there will be a canon...

I can completely understand NOT novelizing current game/s as it might give away important plot points and turn-the curio-meter off... and I appreciate that... Hypothesizing about this game has been fun... so BRING IT ON!

I thought of that SirShreK, and you thought of that....But sadly, most of the "fanboys" have "tunnel vision" and are incapable of seeing the bigger picture