50 réponses à ce sujet

[Drewskie]

Helekanalaith wrote...

Add to that the (forgotten) Dungeon Masters category and we should have this:

NWN General Discussion (No Spoilers Allowed)
NWN Official Modules (Spoilers Warning)
NWN Singleplayer Modules
NWN Multiplayer Modules and Persistent Worlds
NWN Guilds (Ye New Tavern)
NWN Dungeon Master's Realm
NWN Server Admin
NWN Toolset and Scripting
NWN Custom Content and Tools Development
NWN Technical Support (Self help for all versions and expansions)

Dropping the builders tag makes sense, as there's no tag for players either. And look, we have "Ye New Tavern" to reflect the move over to the SocialNetwork and the shift in the purpose of this category.

Yes, I thought that one through. 

Close to perfect now though I'd maybe re-name dungeon master's realm "DM Client", since that's really what it is.

[Hel]

A possibility, the names are up for debate, I was merely attempting to have it mimic the old boards. Also, uhm, I removed the guilds section from my own post and put "Ye New Tavern" behind the multiplayer section. (Faulty initial post on my end since I misread AndarianTD's post.)

[SHOVA]

Server admin and Dungeon Master could be joined into one. While all DMs are not server admins, nearly all server admins are DMs. perhaps it could be called Multiplayer admin and Dming.

[Drewskie]

SHOVA wrote...

Server admin and Dungeon Master could be joined into one. While all DMs are not server admins, nearly all server admins are DMs. perhaps it could be called Multiplayer admin and Dming.

I don't think I'd go that far.  With server admin you will get into hardware topics, OS topics (Linux and such), that should remain seperate from all else...

[HipMaestro]

Helekanalaith wrote...

Dropping the builders tag makes sense, as there's no tag for players either. I took out the guilds section too as I'm not entirely sure it serves a purpose there. And look, we have "Ye New Tavern" to reflect the move over to the SocialNand the shift in the purpose of this category.

So which forum would I choose to find the character builds? 

[Drewskie]

There used to be guilds just for character builds. Builds also come up in general discussion alot... least they used to.

[HipMaestro]

Drewskie wrote...

There used to be guilds just for character builds. Builds also come up in general discussion alot... least they used to.

I have seen discussion of suggested builds to handle certain scenarios or environments in the general forum, usually with several suggestions as to how to achieve the requested goals. Seldom are specific builds with a single class breakdown labeled in the topic and that makes it difficult to find what you are looking for even without all the other general topics interspersed.  It's much easier with builds compiled in one place. 

Assuming there will eventually be a search engine linking this site, that will make it quicker to find them all spread out.  But for those who are seacrhing for RP or specialty builds, the search engine is fairly useless... not altogether, but mostly.  In that case, either a tipoff in the build title or just plain scouring a list is the most efficient method. The guild organization makes sense to me. Still.

[SuperFly_2000]

Again...if they took the effort to revert the structure to something else...why should they bother to revert it back to what it was...especially as this structure could work as well (if people understand how to use it).



But please....by all means...I am definately not defender of this structure. Changing back to the old one or something similar wouldn't bother me.



What bothers me is people using the current one incorrect.

[Shia Luck]

AndarianTD wrote...

I'm going to dissent from the consensus and recommend the following, which is a combination of several other suggestions:

,,,
NWN Single Player Modules
...

Salient points:

I would recommend that the modules forum be specifically identified as a forum for Single Player. In practice, that's what it's traditionally been for. MP modules are few, and if they have to go somewhere I think they have much more in common with PWs than SP mods.

I still have to disagree with this point. I have played in all 3 ways, (4 if we count having a DM with friends as a 4th way) and it is PWs that stand out as being a completely different thing in my opinion. There is a world of difference between going online to meet new people to play with on a Persistent World and downloading a module from NWVault to play with your friends (and possibly a DM).  Many PWs are not available on the vault for download, you either go to the PW or don't play it.

With a module available on the vault for download  that is designed to be SP OR MP, such as the many PnP conversions or titles like Aielund or Citadel, the experience is much closer to playing an SP module than playing on a PW. I can't see any reason why people who have played the same module would not be able to contribute to a discussion about it, whether they played it in SP or MP.

In my personal experience of playing with around 20-30 other people over the years in MP modules we downloaded and ran ourselves, all of them also played SP modules. I can think of only 3 (myself included) who had tried PWs. I think it is fairly common to see posters claiming that they only play PWs and never modules tho, no?

PW players would have little to say in a discussion of an MP module like
Aielund  and players of MP modules who do not go online to PWs
would likewise have little to contribute to  PW discussions. The forums are about communication between people so I think this is the salient point. 

Have fun

[olivier leroux]

Shia Luck has a point there. The only reason I grouped PWs with Multiplayer in my suggestions was the "Ye Olde Tavern" thing because you can enjoy SP any time on your own but to enjoy PWs and Multiplayer you need other people to interact with - and you could find them in the "Tavern". Apart from that, they're different from each other though. Questions about MP modules have always been discussed in the Modules forum in the past, I think, and they were not as frowned upon there as PW advertisements.

Modifié par olivier leroux, 22 juillet 2010 - 09:24 .

[AndarianTD]

Shia Luck wrote...

AndarianTD wrote...

I would recommend that the modules forum be specifically identified as a forum for Single Player. In practice, that's what it's traditionally been for. MP modules are few, and if they have to go somewhere I think they have much more in common with PWs than SP mods.

I still have to disagree with this point. I have played in all 3 ways, (4 if we count having a DM with friends as a 4th way) and it is PWs that stand out as being a completely different thing in my opinion. There is a world of difference between going online to meet new people to play with on a Persistent World and downloading a module from NWVault to play with your friends (and possibly a DM).  Many PWs are not available on the vault for download, you either go to the PW or don't play it.

I suppose this is partly a matter of perspective, but let me explain the perspective from which I thought that the forum separation should be between "Single Player" and the various varieties of "Multiplayer" (MP mods and PWs). To me as an SP-only player and builder, the "world of difference" is really between going online to play socially at all, whether in a PW or an MP or DM'd mod with friends, vs. playing in the personal experience offered by an SP mod.

I do accept the point that MP modules are also different from PWs. But multiplayer / social gaming in general is very different from SP gaming and creates a very different kind of play experience. In several years of participation on the NWN Modules forum (my regular "hangout" on the Bioboards), I rarely remember discussion of playing modules in MP as opposed to SP ever coming up at all. It's just not where the focus of most people who play SP mods seems to be, most of whom I think do not play NWN MP.

With a module available on the vault for download  that is designed to be SP OR MP, such as the many PnP conversions or titles like Aielund or Citadel, the experience is much closer to playing an SP module than playing on a PW. I can't see any reason why people who have played the same module would not be able to contribute to a discussion about it, whether they played it in SP or MP.

In my personal experience of playing with around 20-30 other people over the years in MP modules we downloaded and ran ourselves, all of them also played SP modules. I can think of only 3 (myself included) who had tried PWs. I think it is fairly common to see posters claiming that they only play PWs and never modules tho, no?

That's not the only way to look at it, though. While many non-PW MP players may also play and feel an affinity for SP, do most SP players have a similar view of MP play? I don't, and I don't think others do either. I suspect that those do play both SP and MP may tend to see the differences between them as of lesser significance, and consequently see MP and SP as being more similar, than those who don't play MP. I'm also not sure that fairly rare MP/SP hybrid mods like Aielund and Citadel provide much of a counter-example. Since they're also SP mods, there's no reason that someone who played them in MP shouldn't be able to contribute to discussion about them in an SP modules forum.

PW players would have little to say in a discussion of an MP module like Aielund  and players of MP modules who do not go online to PWs would likewise have little to contribute to  PW discussions. The forums are about communication between people so I think this is the salient point.

Understood, but that's my point as well. MP play of any kind is so alien to my focus as an SP player/modder that I would have nothing to contribute to (or any interest in) discussion about it. I may or may not be typical of most SP players in that regard, but to whatever extent that I am it may be a point worth considering.

Other than giving MP/DM mods their own forum I don't know that there's a good answer to this question. I'll certainly welcome them in the NWN Modules forum if that's the decision, though.

Modifié par AndarianTD, 22 juillet 2010 - 12:30 .

[AndarianTD]

AndarianTD wrote...

I do accept the point that MP modules are also different from PWs. But multiplayer / social gaming in general is very different from SP gaming and creates a very different kind of play experience. In several years of participation on the NWN Modules forum (my regular "hangout" on the Bioboards), I rarely remember discussion of playing modules in MP as opposed to SP ever coming up at all. It's just not where the focus of most people who play SP mods seems to be, most of whom I think do not play NWN MP.

As an aside, part of my evidence for this is that the AME (Academy for Modding Excellence) has been consistently unable to recruit MP players to participate in awarding the Golden Dragon Award (GDA) for "Best Multiplayer Module." And that's NOT for want of trying. This year is going to be the second year in a row that we will have to leave the Best MP GDA unawarded, for no other reason that no one in the module playing community has expressed any interest in participating in the awards process for it.

I don't doubt the sincerity of Shia's belief that most MP players also have a focus on SP play. But I've seen little or no evidence to substantiate it in the three years I've worked with the AME trying to recruit members who are willing to participate in both SP and MP awards. Shia, if you know of such people, please send them our way, because we really need them.

Modifié par AndarianTD, 22 juillet 2010 - 12:55 .

[TSMDude]

Good points Andarian but the biggest one I think is that any Module is different than a PW in several key ways already outlined above.



While comparing MP Mods vs SP Mods are like comparing Server Vault PWs vs Local Vault PWs. Local Vaults, like MP Mods are rare but there is some main points of connections between them.

Though learning some things from a Local Vault Server is something I would look forward to as they still need to apply some of the same things we do as Server Vaults PWs.

I can only assume the same is with MP Mods and SP Mods. That some things can and are similiar and having them together could benefit both groups.

[olivier leroux]

AndarianTD wrote...
While many non-PW MP players may also play and feel an affinity for SP, do most SP players have a similar view of MP play? I don't, and I don't think others do either.

I don't like to treat "SP players", "MP players" and "PW players" as different groups, even if there are some who prefer one over the others to such an extent that they're not interested in the others at all. But I don't think it's a small minority who can enjoy different types of play at the same time. So I wonder where would be the difference between MP players who also like SP mods and SP players who also like to play MP? When am I considered a SP player and when am I considered a MP player? Seems rather hard for me to decide - unless I don't like one both playstyles at all.

If we're talking about the modules and not the people who play them though, we should note the difference between SP modules with MP support on the one hand (I don't belive they are as rare as Andarian suggests but I admit I haven't checked)  and pure MP modules who require DM interactions on the other hand. I think the difference that's matters the most to Andarian (and correct me if I'm wrong here, please) is the way they were built: Are the modules interactive stories with scripted dramatic composition or are they a playground to roleplay your own stories in, with the DM providing the drama and adjusting the scenarion on the fly?

Then again, some PWs allow you to play on your own just like in SP mode and offer storylines and quests as well. Most probably not to the same extent as SP mods but I think it's not as easy to draw the line as it seems at first. That's why rather then to concentrate on different player groups or module types, I focused on the community aspect and promotion function of "Ye Olde Tavern" (see above) which would make it easier to group those types of playstyles that are dependent on fellow players/DMs/administrators. I wouldn't be averse to a seperate MP forum though and as far as I'm concerned MP mods that also support SP could have their place in Module Discussion, too.

Modifié par olivier leroux, 22 juillet 2010 - 01:10 .

[SuperFly_2000]

Stop wasting energy on discussing how the forum could look but instead discuss what goes where.

Otherwise you will brainstorm us all to hell and chaos....

The structure of this forum isn't changing any time soon (please correct me if I am wrong, any admin?).

[olivier leroux]

AndarianTD wrote...
As an aside, part of my evidence for this is that the AME (Academy for Modding Excellence) has been consistently unable to recruit MP players to participate in awarding the Golden Dragon Award (GDA) for "Best Multiplayer Module."

I believe that's also due to the differences between MP modules I pointed out above. It would be hard to judge a MP mod that's dependent on what DMs and player make of it (that's also one of the reasons the AME doesn't award PWs, I believe). So we probably can award only those types of MP modules that more or less work like SP mods but are more fun with a group. The main obstacles in this regard are time and organization, I think, not necessarily the disinterest of "MP players". Even if I would be willing to test MP mods I couldn't do it on my own, I'd have to schedule play sessions (and different working hours and time zones could really be an issue here).

Modifié par olivier leroux, 22 juillet 2010 - 01:29 .

[olivier leroux]

SuperFly_2000 wrote...

Stop wasting energy on discussing how the forum could look but instead discuss what goes where.

Otherwise you will brainstorm us all to hell and chaos....

The structure of this forum isn't changing any time soon (please correct me if I am wrong, any admin?).

SuperFly_2000, I don't mean no offense, but I don't see why YOU keep on posting here then if you think it's a waste of time. Why not let the moderators decide on what's right or wrong or apply to become one yourself? Give them a break, just because they don't change things by the hour doesn't mean they don't care. Besides, IMO discussions and brainstorming are the basics of this community. Sometimes a little chaos benefits progress while order is stagnation. 

Modifié par olivier leroux, 22 juillet 2010 - 01:31 .

[SuperFly_2000]

Because I want to show that the ongoing discussion is not interesting for some people (like me)...

If you or any of your buddies here succeed in changing the structure of the forum (not that it will hurt me that much) I will eat my own hat...

Modifié par SuperFly_2000, 22 juillet 2010 - 01:33 .

[olivier leroux]

SuperFly_2000 wrote...
Because I want to show that the ongoing discussion is not interesting for some people (like me)...

The best way to show that is to just ignore it and concentrate on other threads instead.

[SuperFly_2000]

Probably...maybe I consider it to be some sort of "thread hi-jack" though..

I would like you make your own thread and name it "How we can change the structure of the forum"

This thread was about helping people by explaining what goes where...instead it is cluttered up with total brainstorming...offering no help what so over...or rather the opposite.

Don't get me wrong...there is nothing wrong with brainstorming...just do it elsewhere please...

Modifié par SuperFly_2000, 22 juillet 2010 - 01:38 .

[TSMDude]

SuperFly_2000 wrote...

I just wanted to point this out as I see some are not posting in the correct sections.

No in your orginal post you tried to tell a large group THIS is how it is. That of course did not work as Gamers and in particular NWN Gamers are a indvidual group who do not like to be forced into something. Since this was in I dont know...the second  or thrida dya of the new forums many of the people who have been playing this game afr longer than me or you took offense and said the truth. Whiel they may agree with your intentions to broach the subject it is up to us as a Community to request it be done a way that we like.

Which means talking baout it and then asking the Admins to do something about it. Forcing your views whether correct or not is inappropiate and smacks of heavy handness.

[olivier leroux]

SuperFly_2000 wrote...
Probably...maybe I consider it to be some sort of "thread hi-jack" though..
I would like you make your own thread and name it "How we can change the structure of the forum"
This thread was about helping people by explaining what goes where...instead it is cluttered up with total brainstorming...offering no help what so over...or rather the opposite.
Don't get me wrong...there is nothing wrong with brainstorming...just do it elsewhere please...

Point taken, and I apologize if you feel I hi-jacked your thread, even though I wish you'd have told me a little earlier.

I'm already in the process of creating a new thread, so we can leave this one to you and continue our discussion there.

[AndarianTD]

olivier leroux wrote...

AndarianTD wrote...
As an aside, part of my evidence for this is that the AME (Academy for Modding Excellence) has been consistently unable to recruit MP players to participate in awarding the Golden Dragon Award (GDA) for "Best Multiplayer Module."

I believe that's also due to the differences between MP modules I pointed out above. It would be hard to judge a MP mod that's dependent on what DMs and player make of it (that's also one of the reasons the AME doesn't award PWs, I believe). So we probably can award only those types of MP modules that more or less work like SP mods but are more fun with a group. The main obstacles in this regard are time and organization, I think, not necessarily the disinterest of "MP players". Even if I would be willing to test MP mods I couldn't do it on my own, I'd have to schedule play sessions (and different working hours and time zones could really be an issue here).

I disagree. The AME tested and awarded the Best MP GDA for its first two years (the 2006 and 2007 awards). Granted that the logistics were a bit more complicated, but we managed to schedule AME member playtesting sessions (I even participated in some of them myself) and vote on the awards. The reason we stopped is because after the 2007 awards we were unable to get member volunteers to participate in the MP Modules category. Most of our members have an SP modules focus and Tybae has repeatedly posted asking for volunteers from the MP community to help out over the last year and a half. We even offered special "MP-Only" memberships as an incentive to get experienced MP players to sign up just to help us out in this one area. All of that was to no avail.

As a new member you know how the AME Awards process works. We first need members who are experienced with eligible works in the field (in this case MP mods), who know what's good and what's not, to submit nominations. Only then can we discuss scheduling member playtesting sessions to help those members that don't play MP regularly on their own to participate in evaluating them.

So no, it's not a matter of logistics. We've handled the logistics in the past and could do it again. What we need is a few AME member volunteers from the MP player community, who can be counted on to sign up for the category, and to nominate and vote in it. Unfortunately, we just haven't been able to get that.

Modifié par AndarianTD, 22 juillet 2010 - 02:33 .

[AndarianTD]

The point about going off topic is well taken. If anyone wants to continue the discussion about the recruiting for the AME in general or for the MP awards in particular, we recently started a thread about our recruiting efforts here:



The AME is recruiting for the Golden Dragon Awards!

[olivier leroux]

As SuperFly_2000 envisioned this thread to be about helping people by explaining what goes where and not about discussing the forum structure, this discussion is now continued here.