42753 réponses à ce sujet

[Ulathar]

Captain Crash wrote...
Bethesda markettng shows this doesnt happen so take a leaf from their book.  You can show different variations of your protagonist and actually make this improve your games image!

Even BioWare marketing shows that it can be done differently. BioWare Austin(SW:TOR) to be exact, as they've shown Male and Female characters, even in their trailers. Female Republic Trooper (voiced by Jennifer Hale btw.) for example. No one was confused by that.
Why can't this be done with ME, I wonder? Maybe like, Sheploo as Soldier, and a FemShep Vanguard for the cover/trailers ... or something like that. Neither would be iconic to me, as I only play custom Sheps, but it would add variety and it would be appreciated, I think.

[Phaedon]

Focusing on an iconic character instead of CustomSheps (both Female and Male) was a marketing choice that was done in the beginning of the trilogy, and can't exactly change now.

As for SWTOR, that's a bad example, though I see your point.
There are no iconic characters in MMOs.

[Phaedon]

I still want to focus on one of the points of SkaldFish's post.

Why is FemShep more sophisticated, RPG oriented, complex-minded, richer etc. than Male Shepard?

Sure, variety is more sophisticated, but FemShep is as 'smart a branding' as a Custom MaleShep.

[Captain Crash]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

hmmm theres two Shepards on the box!

None of the box art characters (on any game in my collection) have name tags, so the response would be "there are two N7 people" - so maybe it's a cooperative shooter? Or something like SWAT3? If 95% of games stick to a particular convention (e.g. different people on the box are actually different people) which you subvert then you will confuse customers.

Bethesda

What, exactly, are you referring to? NV box art features a NCR ranger in combat armour, a probably female courier and another NCR ranger (in patrol armour)

NV isnt a Bethesda Game it is by Obsidian.

Anyway I was referring to Fallout 3 trailers where they show different styles and genders of the protagonist.

In regards to the box art if well done nothing should be confusing if well made.  Even the fan covers show it can be well done.   But the point is irrelevant anyway because Bioware have made their ME decsion.   Going fowards however things can be done differently to great effect if desired.    Marketting isnt limited to the box.  Or even the front of the box. 

Modifié par Captain Crash, 15 avril 2011 - 11:24 .

[Phaedon]

As I said, I completely agree with your points, but FO3 has no iconic character, other than the cartoony Vault Boy.

[Ulathar]

Phaedon wrote...

Focusing on an iconic character instead of CustomSheps (both Female and Male) was a marketing choice that was done in the beginning of the trilogy, and can't exactly change now.

As for SWTOR, that's a bad example, though I see your point.
There are no iconic characters in MMOs.

I know that it was a marketing choice. The ME1 CE was "just" the N7 logo and is the best cover of any ME related stuff so far, imo. So they changed that for ME2...why not change it again/back with ME3.

I don't think SW:TOR is a bad example as they focus on story and the characters there. Also, ME and SW:TOR both have different classes for the characters, which is why I gave an example of how it could work with ME.

[Captain Crash]

Phaedon wrote...

SkaldFish wrote...
Ummm... No, sir. In no reasonable sense is that a true statement. It's nothing more than marketing provincialism -- something on the level of 1950's Kellog's always thinking they had to create a cartoon character to associate withevery cereal brand. And that's exactly what "iconic" Shepard becomes in BioWare's simple-minded branding - the Tony the Tiger of the Mass Effect universe. A rich, ensemble-oriented game and story is downgraded to a shooter-wannabe, testosterone-worshipping caricature of itself.

And why is Sheploo supposed to be a dumb, testosterone-worshipping, simple-minded,shooter-wannabe caricature exactly? That's very discriminatory.

I think anyone complaining about FemShep not being in the cover is making a basic mistake in their logic.
Sheploo is not another CustomShep, Female or Male. He is the only face of Shepard that Bioware paid money to use, and not using it makes absolutely no sense. I don't see why the only complaints are about a Custom FemShep not being in the cover, and not a Custom MaleShep.

That said, Marketing aside, I would, too, like to see more attention to animation skeletons and romances for FemShep in ME3.

Phaedon wrote...

I still want to focus on one of the points of SkaldFish's post.

Why is FemShep more sophisticated, RPG oriented, complex-minded, richer etc. than Male Shepard?

Sure, variety is more sophisticated, but FemShep is as 'smart a branding' as a Custom MaleShep.

You totally are twisting his words there.  Not once does he call him "dumb".   I get the feeling your just here to make an arguement out of nothing because we dont agree with his marketing image.

Afterall Shepard is a genderless character. Calling him dumb is calling her dumb as they a the same protagonist.  Just different genders.

His words are strong with the Testosterone part. But thats because his image is used all the time.  Some of us like seeing a different image.  Especially when we have seen the same style over and over again before. In books, movies and games. Not all of use want a cliche underwear model, adrenaline fuled, Rambo type guy.   Theres dozens of ways to play and see Shepard and we feel this choice should be shown further. 

[Phaedon]

I am not here to flame, and I am certainly not here to twist anyone's words.

I have 4 playthroughs, 2 with a Custom FemShep, 1 with a Custom MaleShep and 1 with Sheploo.

And that's exactly what "iconic" Shepard becomes in BioWare's simple-minded branding - the Tony the Tiger of the Mass Effect universe. A rich, ensemble-oriented game and story is downgraded to a shooter-wannabe, testosterone-worshipping caricature of itself.

Let's have a constructive discussion.
Why does the use of an iconic figure downgrade the game to a "shooter-wannabe, testosterone-worshipping caricature"

Would the use of a CustomShepard make the game more sophisticated.

And how exactly does Sheploo, because I have a feeling that it's not the iconic figure that it is, the problem, make the game look like a "shooter wannabe" or a "testosterone worshipper"

Modifié par Phaedon, 15 avril 2011 - 11:43 .

[AlexMBrennan]

NV isnt a Bethesda Game it is by Obsidian.

Sorry, the publisher's Bethesda Softworks logo mistakenly led me to believe that it was developed by "Bethesda" (Bethesda Game Studios).

[Phaedon]

In any case, female romances and animations?
Yes, that's related to FemShep, and it is rightful to ask for these issues to be fixed in ME3.

Complaining about marketing?
No. FemShep isn't the only figure being overshadowed there. It's custom Shepards that are overshadowed.

However, an iconic FemShep would be nice to see, though I don't expect that in ME3.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Phaedon wrote...

I am not here to flame, and I am certainly not here to twist anyone's words.

I have 4 playthroughs, 2 with a Custom FemShep, 1 with a Custom MaleShep and 1 with Sheploo.

And that's exactly what "iconic" Shepard becomes in BioWare's simple-minded branding - the Tony the Tiger of the Mass Effect universe. A rich, ensemble-oriented game and story is downgraded to a shooter-wannabe, testosterone-worshipping caricature of itself.

Let's have a constructive discussion.
Why does the use of an iconic figure downgrade the game to a "shooter-wannabe, testosterone-worshipping caricature"

Would the use of a CustomShepard make the game more sophisticated.

And how exactly does Sheploo, because I have a feeling that it's not the iconic figure that it is, the problem, make the game look like a "shooter wannabe" or a "testosterone worshipper"

The first mistake in your argument is to assume that all FemSheps are CustomSheps. Like Sheploo there is a default FemShep. You can deny that this FemShep exists, but that does not make her go away. And about the rest of your post.... I leave that to someone else.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 15 avril 2011 - 11:54 .

[Phaedon]

That is indeed a good point.
But unlike Sheploo, Bioware didn't pay to use that face, they came up with it in the character creator.

Why that matters?
Mentioned in previous posts.

[Captain Crash]

Phaedon wrote...

In any case, female romances and animations?
Yes, that's related to FemShep, and it is rightful to ask for these issues to be fixed in ME3.

Complaining about marketing?
No. FemShep isn't the only figure being overshadowed there. It's custom Shepards that are overshadowed.

However, an iconic FemShep would be nice to see, though I don't expect that in ME3.

Out of Curiosity what things would you like to see for femshep in ME3 Phaedon?   Other then animations? 


In terms of Marketing. We realise Bioware has made their choice and we understand that. But some things are a little annoying for solely femshep players.   For example DLC armour release.  How are we meant to make an informed decision on if to buy a new product if we cant see what the armour looks like on female Shepard.  This is also a concern for pre-order bonuses for ME3.  This is where Biowares marketting fails.  Paying customers deserve to see the product they are buying.  


I agree though by giving a default appearance it does overshadow custom Shepards in general.  But femshep is a great lead and one the best female protagonists ever created. We think Bioware should be embracing this.  

But argueing Biowares marketting is fustrating because we all know the decsion wont change.   We just want them to see the light at the end of the tunnel and make changes for future games.  

[Interactive Civilian]

13 posts into the page and no pictures?

Athene would like to introduce you to her "little friend"
http://cloud.steampo...83DF5DD72E1B29/



I don't have anything to contribute to a discussion on marketing images, because I don't mind the fact that femShep isn't played up in the marketing. I don't mind that Sheploo is the Shepard we see in the commercials, and I can kind of see the idea that perhaps it can be annoying for custom maleShep players to see it, as then they get the "Well, that's not the *real* Shepard" feeling, if they've invested a lot into their own maleSheps. That's kind of why I don't mind there not being a commercial version of femShep. I'll hear Jennifer Hale's voice coming out of her mouth and think "Who the heck is that doppleganger and what has she done with the *real* Shepard".


That said, I highly agree that, for things like DLC and pre-order bonuses (and marketing material on the website including screenshots), at the very least a femShep equivalent of every maleShep screen-shot should be released, so people can make informed decisions.

Aside: I have way too much fun killing thresher maws on foot. I'll probably have to annoy you all later with more of Artemis's latest kills.

Modifié par Interactive Civilian, 15 avril 2011 - 12:20 .

[M3cHr3p71l]

Vanaer wrote...

M3cHr3p71l wrote...

f1r3storm wrote...

A little piece from a new GI interview.

For
both Mass Effect and Dragon Age, the marketing has focused on male
protagonists. Since players can create both male and female characters,
why isn’t the female side represented?

Muzyka:
That’s
a great question. One of the things we really embrace in our games is
diversity and enabling people to take on different roles so, obviously,
we have strong female leads. We have amazing voice acting talent for
both the male and the female roles.

That said, for the marketing
face we have to make a choice. And it’s a tough choice to pick an iconic
face -- the face of the brand. You have to pick an iconic
representation for the brand and it comes down to the marketing team’s
intuition.
It’s not easy because we know a lot of the fans enjoy playing the
female lead so we always make sure it’s just as high quality as the male
lead for the main characters in our games.

* yeah, the marketing team's money
intuition.  Lots of bucks is what stimulate the intuition. If not you
also would have made a FemShep image for marketing or otherwise neutral
marketing. They leave reality, quality for money. Improper by part of
bioware.

** that also refers to: the boobs size doesn't increase
magically as Ashley's does and other possible projects about better the
hetero-man sight.
And how he avoids replying to the question... because he finally doesnt give any info we dont already know [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie]

Thanks for post the info, @ f1r3.

Edit: srry, but really I don't understand the new title of the thread [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie]

There
was an interesting discussion in the offtopic section about female
gamers. The discussion became interesting when it started about
marketing. Even though for the majority of gamers it wouldn't matter
whether the protagonist is male/female, marketing is still being
focussed on (white, heterosexual) males. Marketing keeps enforcing (not
just in game marketing) conservative stereotype roles.

Indeed.

SkaldFish wrote...

Muzyka: "That said, for the marketing face we have to make a choice ... You have to pick an iconic representation for the brand..."

Ummm... No, sir. In no reasonable sense is that a true statement. It's nothing more than marketing provincialism -- something on the level of 1950's Kellog's always thinking they had to create a cartoon character to associate withevery cereal brand. And that's exactly what "iconic" Shepard becomes in BioWare's simple-minded branding - the Tony the Tiger of the Mass Effect universe. A rich, ensemble-oriented game and story is downgraded to a shooter-wannabe, testosterone-worshipping caricature of itself.

Sheer superstition. The marketing team has no idea what would happen if they used both a male and a female Shepard representation in their branding, and they're afraid to try. Ironically, "marketing team's intuition" is more revealing of the truth of the situation than Muzyka intended. As far as I'm concerned, Mass Effect 1 & 2 have sold on the strength and quality of the product, in spite of their marketing and branding.

I have a great deal of respect and admiration for Muzyka and Zeschuk, which makes Muzyka's position on this just that much more puzzling. If BioWare "embraces diversity" and the importance of enabling people to create unique characters, why does the Mass Effect branding communicate the exact opposite? Smart people can be really dumb sometimes.

Impeccable explanation. You have stolen my thoughts XD. ...and the purpose of that marketing and branding is get the high benefits possibles. They say much "equally games" but in the true hour (better said "money decisions") leave their way.

[scampermax]

Jih says: Take that, EA marketing.

[Tup3x]

Interactive Civilian wrote...

13 posts into the page and no pictures?

Athene would like to introduce you to her "little friend"
/snip

Let's add some more.







I'm still doing side missions, post suicide mission.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Phaedon wrote...

That is indeed a good point.
But unlike Sheploo, Bioware didn't pay to use that face, they came up with it in the character creator.

Why that matters?
Mentioned in previous posts.

I'll give you my standard answer to that: I am a gamer. Not a stockholder. That means that I don't care who BW paid or not. I care that the character in which I invest the most time in will have the same treatment as the one I rarely use (your well paid Sheploo). I think my poll is sufficient evidence that it's not just me that loves FemShep. Even if the poll does not represent all gamers, its figures are rather remarkable, don't you think so?

Edit: About the character creator... FemShep has a default appearace. AFAIK, like MaleShep, all that is required is to select the gender. The fact that BW created her using a character generator is irrelevant. As a gamer I don't care.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 15 avril 2011 - 12:40 .

[f1r3storm]

Interactive Civilian wrote...

13 posts into the page and no pictures?

Athene would like to introduce you to her "little friend"
http://cloud.steampo...83DF5DD72E1B29/

I bet mine's bigger.

[Captain Crash]

Mines Even Bigger!!


hmmm a little too big!! :happy: 

[f1r3storm]

Captain Crash wrote...

Mines Even Bigger!!


hmmm a little too big!! :happy: 

/snip

Hehe, i only used that thing once.

Scorched Shepard's eyebrows, so she didn't touch it again. <_<

[Interactive Civilian]

f1r3storm wrote...

Hehe, i only used that thing once.

Scorched Shepard's eyebrows, so she didn't touch it again. <_<

Awww... The Cain can be fun. Nothing like one-shotting that Geth Colossus on Tali's recruiting mission. Artemis was very pleased the first time she attempted that, scorched eye-brows notwithstanding.

I tend to prioritize heavy ammo upgrades just so I can have two consecutive shots with the Cain when maxed out.

Anyway, it's not the size that matters. It's how you use it. Which reminds me, next Thresher Maw I come across, we're taking it down with pistols only.

Modifié par Interactive Civilian, 15 avril 2011 - 12:43 .

[M3cHr3p71l]

hey, great conversation here; both sides have the reason.
Not is only a simple and innocent image; it has more impact firstly we realize. A game image NEVER DON'T HAS A PURPOSE. At least, my opinion is that Sheploo replies they make the game more closely to a group of gamers than others. Sheploo is the paradigm hetero-man; and many situations in game prove it. The game are saying subtly that he is the prototipe of person who can save the galaxy, independiently after you can choose your Shep.

[Puzzlewell]

 Regarding boxart I think I personally would be satisfied if it showed both a male and female Shep. It might be confusing from a marketing standpoint because you're betting on the buyer not knowing that "Hey, is that lady in N7 armor a squadmate?", but I think it could work out. Then again I personally am not fond of Sheploo so three games of having him on the cover makes me grunt a bit.  

I really need to install my PC version of the games so that I can share my Jane Shepards with you all (I try to make them all look mostly the same too because as I said before I like to view my ME playthroughs as the same FemShep, just how her life could be different depending on her background and choices. That being said, two of the three are with Liara, but it's hard to say no to her...)

I'd say the hardest thing I've ever done in the series was working on this last playthrough that is the only version of Jane that *isn't* with Liara. I saved recruiting her for last so that I wouldn't be tempted to talk to her and start the relationship. Illium is going to be so tough with not getting the kiss when I go see her. 

Modifié par CalamityRanger, 15 avril 2011 - 12:54 .