42753 réponses à ce sujet

[M3cHr3p71l]

to be continued... I should go! DEW

[BWBamboo]

Sable Phoenix wrote...



Frankly I find the sociopolitical pressure to portray men and women as exactly the same in all aspects to be a disservice to both sexes.

That and it just doesn't make any sense. The whole gender equality thing is way too often misunderstood as a mathematical equality rather than one in, well, quality. On top of that, it is applied to areas it should not be applied to, or simply overdone. During my time in school, we had a day for girls to check out jobs in engineering/sciences/IT every year. There wasn't one for guys to check out either those jobs (ok, makes sense) or jobs that are stereotypically female. Kinda off topic, so I'll stop before I write myself into a fury

[Vralenalien]

jwalker wrote...
here you go !

That's one really deternined Shep. She looks great.

jlb524 wrote...

Oh, I did recently remake an old Shepard of mine...

Natalie Shepard
Infiltrator
Spacer/War Hero




I'm using ELE's face tex mod, and I think it looks great on her...thank you thank you ELE!!!!

She looks amazing.

[Chignon]

Sable Phoenix wrote...

Eh.

This article is mixing up genetic determination with cultural stereotypes and attempting to say they both have the same root.  They're also making the erroneous assumption that "different" is the same as "bad".  Frankly I find the sociopolitical pressure to portray men and women as exactly the same in all aspects to be a disservice to both sexes.  If men and women were exactly the same, not only would the procreation of the species be really difficult, but there wouldn't be any "cultural stereotypes" in the first place.  There would be nothing there for society to impose upon.

Men and women are inherently different.  And you know what?  That's awesome.

Great post, Sable. Thank you.

[syllogi]

Sable Phoenix wrote...

I don't think the romance subplots themselves are OOC, just the way that Shep is presented in them, or rather, how she initiates them.  She comes off as... well, frankly, almost ****ty.  "How about we skip right to the tiebreaker?"  ... really?  This is your best friend on the whole ship and you're propositioning him like that?  And Thane's, well, she's so ridiculously insensitive it's painful.  "You just spilled your guts to me about your murdured wife, I want to bang you!"  Yes I'm exaggerating, but still, ugh.  I think they were trying for a sexy/passive female stereotype and it just does not jive with the take-charge personality that Shep is.  Cognitive dissonance.

Thankfully, once the awkwardness of the initiating dialogue is past, the romances progress in a much better fashion (except for Jacob's, of course, where they never manage to write Shep out of the stereotype hole).

I know that some people are taking issue with what you said here, but I get you, and I felt the same way.  I want to emphasize, though, that it is just the execution of the initial approach of Shepard towards Garrus and Thane that was jarring and abrupt to me -- I feel like, if I were to play out these romances (and yes, I've seen them on YouTube, and I have no problem with the rest of their romance dialogue), I would have to ignore the initial "reach and flexibility" and "I want you, Thane" conversations to make them work for my characters.  Just my personal opinion, and no offense towards anyone who enjoys these beginnings.  They just don't work for me.

To give an example of an opening "flirt" that I did like, when starting a romance with Alistair in Dragon Age Origins, the dialogue option "has anyone ever told you how handsome you are?" worked, IMO, because it was flirty, but not outrageously so, and it couldn't be interpreted as anything but romantic.  If I'm going to roleplay a romance, I'd like to start it in a way that feels natural.

Modifié par TeenZombie, 02 novembre 2010 - 06:49 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

"I want you, Thane." != "I'm here for you, Thane. Whatever you need."

Not even remotely close.

[Chignon]

Fiery, if I understood her right, Sable already stated that she only thought it comes across as a bit insensitive to express an interest in Thane after he told Shepard about his dead wife - not how it was worded. So it's rather the circumstance than what she said.

Modifié par Chignon, 02 novembre 2010 - 07:15 .

[ELE08]

jlb524 wrote...

snip
I'm using ELE's face tex mod, and I think it looks great on her...thank you thank you ELE!!!!

I'm glad you like it.  She looks great!

Chignon wrote...

sagequeen wrote...

randomly, @ ele: i am very happy teagan stayed faithful to kaidan if for no other reason than the awesome art it has inspired that you posted over on the kast

I must agree with sagequeen. You are really spoiling us with all those beautiful pictures. Thank you.

Yay, I'm glad you guys like   I may have to visit the kast and lurk like a creeper.

Hmmm gender politics.  Staying away from that one.  As far as all the romances go, different strokes for different folks.  It really depends on the Shep in question whether or not it's OOC.

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

"I want you, Thane." != "I'm here for you, Thane. Whatever you need."

Not even remotely close.

A failing in the writing department.  What Shep said wasn't insensitive.  But as a player taking that option does sort of feel that way.

[rage-monk]

Sable Phoenix wrote...
[...]

This is why, on occasion, femShep comes off as feeling a little wierd to me.  Shep is written as male (even if BioWare might contest that), and that means that femShep will sometimes do or say something that a woman would most likely do or say differently than it is presented in the game, because the communication styles are fundamentally different.  Hale's presentation compensates for this most of the time, but sometimes it really is the fault of the writing and there's nothing she can do with it.  The worst examples of this are actually the romances in ME2, where femShep suddenly veers way out of character and basically throws herself at the head of the potential LI (it's especially bad with Jacob, obviously).  When the writers write Shep as "female" first they seem to instantly degrade into stereotype.  Just... fail.
[...]

I'm not sure if I interprete you correctly.
Are you saying FemShep is shown as stereotipically female in those romances? Because from an anthropological (I hope I'm using the right word here) point of view women need to be much more careful in terms of choice of partner, since they are the ones getting the babies. The FemShep on Jacob thing makes her just look... ****ty - for lack of a better word.

[adneate]

Sable Phoenix wrote...
Holy crap!  ELE's facemod makes the hottest Shepards ever.

It's very well done that's for sure, if anything it gives a PC user another option to play with when making a face and can pull together a face that just isn't quite working because of the 3 textures BioWare restricts us to. I also recently used it on a Shepard design myself.



My Sentinel Colleen.

[Sable Phoenix]

M3cHr3p71l wrote...

Nobody writes how women and men must behave. It is true that men and women are different physically and psychologically but these differences don't forbid some behaviour. The problem is that the society and traditions  continue influencing passively in the female/male roles and it determines our behavior.

Or perhaps it's the gender differences passively influencing society and determining the perceptions therein.  The two sexes and the differences between them existed way before societal roles, which change with the society. It's hardcoded into us.  It's not about behavior being forbidden or not.  It's about how the genders interact with the world around them.

I don't really want to get into a debate over it, we're wandering far into off-topic land, but suffice it to say that if men and women were exactly the same, societal perceptions of their roles wouldn't even exist in the first place.

Swiiinging it back around to the topic, this is why I and others have noticed a bit of dissonance every once in a while with the way femShep is presented.  It's not that Shepard can't act that way; she's a human and all humans act remarkably similar to each other.  It's not even about what she does -- if you look at what she does, she participates in and accomplishes everything that the male Shepard does.  It's the way she does it that feels off.  I have no problem with anything she does in either game, I just that because she's a she I sometimes get the feelilng she wouldn't quite have done it that way.

[ADLegend21]

Something that I observed from all this talk of romances is that for Maleshep, the women (besides Ashley and Miranda) throw themselves at him through a mass accelerator, while for femshep she has to work for all the romances (Jacob, Garrus, Thane, Kaidan) (TBC later)

[syllogi]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

"I want you, Thane." != "I'm here for you, Thane. Whatever you need."

Not even remotely close.

Then why did the writers use "I want you, Thane" as the choice on the dialogue wheel to get to that?  To me, the intent is clear, and it's not something I'm comfortable with, as is using a story about a past conquest with Garrus as an opening to suggest sex.  *I*, personally, just me, have to adjust the story in my mind, or supplement with fan fiction, in order to justify or change the initiation scene of those romances.  I am not as familiar with MaleShep's romance initiations, but from what I've seen, I don't like those either (I'm a fan of Miranda, for instance, but her romance makes me cringe).  It's just a preference.

[Captain Crash]

Oh Colleen is nice    

Although she could still do with working on her People's Eyebrow Impression

adneate wrote...

Modifié par Captain Crash, 02 novembre 2010 - 07:42 .

[jlb524]

ADLegend21 wrote...

Something that I observed from all this talk of romances is that for Maleshep, the women (besides Ashley and Miranda) throw themselves at him through a mass accelerator, while for femshep she has to work for all the romances (Jacob, Garrus, Thane, Kaidan) (TBC later)

What about Liara for FemShep then?

[Sable Phoenix]

rage-monk wrote...

Sable Phoenix wrote...
[...]

This is why, on occasion, femShep comes off as feeling a little wierd to me.  Shep is written as male (even if BioWare might contest that), and that means that femShep will sometimes do or say something that a woman would most likely do or say differently than it is presented in the game, because the communication styles are fundamentally different.  Hale's presentation compensates for this most of the time, but sometimes it really is the fault of the writing and there's nothing she can do with it.  The worst examples of this are actually the romances in ME2, where femShep suddenly veers way out of character and basically throws herself at the head of the potential LI (it's especially bad with Jacob, obviously).  When the writers write Shep as "female" first they seem to instantly degrade into stereotype.  Just... fail.
[...]

I'm not sure if I interprete you correctly.
Are you saying FemShep is shown as stereotipically female in those romances? Because from an anthropological (I hope I'm using the right word here) point of view women need to be much more careful in terms of choice of partner, since they are the ones getting the babies. The FemShep on Jacob thing makes her just look... ****ty - for lack of a better word.

No, my problem is the writers.  FemShep is not acting stereotypically female in those scenes.  I get the impression however that the writers tried to make her act according to their perception of female stereotypes.  Specifically, they pulled the hot pink, sequin-covered "Sexy and Flirty" jacket out of the closet and put it on femShep.  But this is Shepard we're talking about here, and that jacket looks ridiculous.

Modifié par Sable Phoenix, 02 novembre 2010 - 08:09 .

[adneate]

jlb524 wrote...
What about Liara for FemShep then?

That's what spawned this entire topic! Liara is fanservice because she approaches FemShep. While the others are crap because FemShep does all the work, which isn't fair.

We have reached internet consensus: It all sucks.

[BWBamboo]

adneate wrote...

It's very well done that's for sure, if anything it gives a PC user another option to play with when making a face and can pull together a face that just isn't quite working because of the 3 textures BioWare restricts us to. I also recently used it on a Shepard design myself.



snip



My Sentinel Colleen.

She looks really great! Awesome raised eyebrow

ADLegend21 wrote...

while for femshep she has to work for all the romances

Hm, I had to consciously avoid starting a relationship unintenionally with my femshep, so I'm not sure there's a big difference between dudeshep and femshep

[Chignon]

adneate wrote...



My Sentinel Colleen.

Colleen's quite pretty. I love the freckles.

[jlb524]

But Sable, aren't you also saying that gender stereotypes are justified by differences in biology?

[jlb524]

adneate wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
What about Liara for FemShep then?

That's what spawned this entire topic! Liara is fanservice because she approaches FemShep. While the others are crap because FemShep does all the work, which isn't fair.

We have reached internet consensus: It all sucks.

FemShep should just be single then, less hassle. 

[Ponyoyo]

jlb524 wrote...

adneate wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
What about Liara for FemShep then?

That's what spawned this entire topic! Liara is fanservice because she approaches FemShep. While the others are crap because FemShep does all the work, which isn't fair.

We have reached internet consensus: It all sucks.

FemShep should just be single then, less hassle. 

Haha. xD That is one way to look at it!

[Sable Phoenix]

jlb524 wrote...

But Sable, aren't you also saying that gender stereotypes are justified by differences in biology?

Gah!

No, just because they exist doesn't mean they're justified.  Stereotypes are a catch-all categorization for groups of people, and as such they're rarely accurate and never justified.  However they can only exist because of a trend or pattern of behavior and the human need to organize and label everything.  Stereotypes vary from one culture to the next and change over time, but they're always based on some actual behavioral characteristic of the group being stereotyped.

I'm saying gender stereotypes exist because of the differences in gender, not that gender stereotypes define those differences.

Modifié par Sable Phoenix, 02 novembre 2010 - 08:08 .

[rage-monk]

@ Sable Phoenix:

Ah, thanks for pointing it out. I'm a little knackered ATM.

_________



There's another odd thing about the whole Jacob-FemShep relation that has just come to my attention:

At some point (I think it's after his loyalty mission) he says Miranda would deserve a better man than him. And he's fine with starting a relationship with FemShep... o.0 Wouldn't that mean he considers FemShep inferior to Miranda?

From a ManShep-romancing-Miri-POV it feels like Jacob's sginalling that he has no problem with that, but for FemShep it just boggles my mind.

[Captain Crash]

jlb524 wrote...

adneate wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
What about Liara for FemShep then?

That's what spawned this entire topic! Liara is fanservice because she approaches FemShep. While the others are crap because FemShep does all the work, which isn't fair.

We have reached internet consensus: It all sucks.

FemShep should just be single then, less hassle. 

My canon femshep is   


Although I havent don LOTSB with her yet so that could quite easily change!