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[Vralenalien]

JamieCOTC wrote...
Also, maybe this has been brought up before, but for some reason I have the impression that femSheps (and those who play her) are typically more pro Alliance or at least more anti Cerberus than her male counterparts (and those who play him.) Thoughts?

Jennifer doesn't trust either of them anymore. She is walking quite a lot of paragon route, but she isn't saint and what she's seen after waking up on Lazarus station has not made her think much of Alliance anymore. She trusts them more than Cerberus, but given chance she'd just leave them both. Which in Alliance case she already did. At the moment she will use them to both to achieve victory over reapers. That also includes council. Galaxy saw it alright to leave her just about alone to defend it and she will do that no matter what the galaxy wants, damnit.

[Skyline_Stanza]

Hmmm, Cam's probably in the same boat as most here: She does NOT like working for Cerberus, but understands that the Alliance won't do anything to help them in the here and now. At first, Cam thought of them as a "necessary" evil.

However, Jack, Garrus and Tali were constant reminders as to what Cerberus is in the end: an "end justifies the means" organization. So in the end, Cam decides to forgo keeping the Collector base.

She knows now that it's up to her to make her own allegances, and allies, and to draw strength from each of them equally. 

Cameron Shepard knows she walking a fine line, but she's got some of the best men and women to catch her when she falls...

Modifié par Skyline_Stanza, 14 novembre 2010 - 11:53 .

[mellifera]

Skyline_Stanza wrote...
She knows she walking a fine line, but she's got some of the best to catch her when she falls...

Haha, yeah. She did get the best team that are now loyal to her (everyone survived in my game). I think Shepard will be okay in the end (at least in terms of getting aid defeating the Reapers, I don't know if she'll die or not doing so).

[FireEye]

yukidama wrote...

Adele hated Cerberus but saw them as a necessary evil while she worked with, not for, them.

I honestly never understood this argument.  Working with Cerberus is working for Cerberus.  (For there is only one Lord of Cerberus, and he does not share power, etc etc.)

[sagefic]

i think the thing i find most annoying about cerberus is that in ME2, they're supposed to be all "shades of gray." OoooooOOOOooooOOOoooo!

UNC: Colony of the Dead? - not gray
rachni experiments and dumping them on unsuspecting planets? - not gray
thorian creeper experiments? - not gray
murdering an admiral? - not gray
akuze and all the horror after? - not gray
overlord idiocy? - not gray
jack's life? - not gray

they might be stupid, deluded, completely psychotic, fanatics, but whatever the h*ll they are, they are NOT gray in ME1 and not for most of ME2, also.

"they're the only people getting the job done?"- pfft. the h*ll they are. shepard is. bringing back shepard is the only thing they do "right" and even there, if they really were about shepard being effective and mobilizing a defense, why so clearly try to cut shepard's ties with the alliance and the council?

the only proof of their "gray" status is that they keep saying "we have humanity's best interest at heart. we're gray!"

fine, make them gray - make them so we didn't see cerberus' greater purpose, their fantastic importance, blah, blah, blah, but IMO, ME2 did not accomplish that. it just made TIM seem like the most fantastic liar in the world and miranda the most clueless woman ever.

Modifié par sagequeen, 15 novembre 2010 - 12:02 .

[Chignon]

FireEye wrote...

yukidama wrote...

Adele hated Cerberus but saw them as a necessary evil while she worked with, not for, them.

I honestly never understood this argument.  Working with Cerberus is working for Cerberus.  (For there is only one Lord of Cerberus, and he does not share power, etc etc.)

I agree, Fire.

In the end, it's just semantics and I wanted to shake some sense into Shepard when she used that line with Kaidan on Horizon.

Modifié par Chignon, 15 novembre 2010 - 12:02 .

[Skyline_Stanza]

sagequeen wrote...

i think the thing i find most annoying about cerberus is that in ME2, they're supposed to be all "shades of gray." OoooooOOOOooooOOOoooo!

UNC: Colony of the Dead? - not gray
rachni experiments and dumping them on unsuspecting planets? - not gray
thorian creeper experiments? - not gray
murdering an admiral? - not gray
akuze and all the horror after? - not gray
overlord idiocy? - not gray
jack's life? - not gray

they might be stupid, deluded, completely psychotic, fanatics, but whatever the h*ll they are, they are NOT gray in ME1 and not for most of ME2, also.

"they're the only people getting the job done?"- pfft. the h*ll they are. shepard is. bringing back shepard is the only thing they do "right" and even there, if they really were about shepard being effective, why so clearly try to cut shepard's ties with the alliance and the council?

the only proof of their "gray" status is that they keep saying "we have humanity's best interest at heart. we're gray!"

fine, make them gray - make them so we didn't see cerberus' greater purpose, their fantastic importance, blah, blah, blah, but IMO, ME2 did not accomplish that. it just made TIM seem like the most fantastic liar in the world and miranda the most clueless woman ever.

If you could go back and re-write this, how would you show Cerberus as a "shades of gray" organization?

Sort of latching onto that, I've heard complaints about the opening and how some wish that it was implemented a bit better. If you could go back and add/subtract details from the beginning of the game, but STILL have Shepard working for Cerberus when the first mission rolls around, how would you do it?

Sorry, the writer in me comes out late at night, and playing ME non-stop since Friday (Lv 54 and on Illos!) has sort of fried my brain.

[mellifera]

Well, yeah. Technically you're forced to work for them but I meant it in a more metaphorical way. The game forces you to but it was more a "I'll do it because it is the way to go, not because you're telling me to." In the end she was technically working for TIM but to her it was important to make the distinction in her mind. She wasn't there against her will but at the same time she was not there willingly, you know? It's mostly a matter of semantics but it was a "I'm doing this because it's good for what I am trying to achieve and you are my only means of accomplishing this at the moment, not because you are telling me to do it and I am beholden to you."  situation. It made sense to her. Not necessarily to me personally (don't really have much of an opinion on it as it's just words), but when I was playing I felt it was a distinction important to her (whether or not it was to Kaidan or Ashley or whoever else would throw that argument at her).

Modifié par yukidama, 15 novembre 2010 - 12:11 .

[Hedera]

Skyline_Stanza wrote...



If you could go back and re-write this, how would you show Cerberus as a "shades of gray" organization?

Not sure if that's possible with the established backstory from ME1.  They are basically the reason Shepard's (or at least my Shepard's) life is in the horrible place it is now.  Not very gray.  I have to say though, talking to Jacob and Miranda, the two of them haven't had the opportunity to sit on the outside and see what Cerberus is capable of.  That explains why it's so easy for TIM to just say "they went rogue" whenever something is unearthed and have his people believe him.  Hell, half the crew doesn't even know what is even up with Cerberus. (Ken and Gabby, Gardner) The problem is, Shep had plenty of time to see their true colors, and really doesn't get the opportunity to express this in-game.  

Just my take on this.  :happy:

[ADLegend21]

JamieCOTC wrote...

Also, maybe this has been brought up before, but for some reason I have the impression that femSheps (and those who play her) are typically more pro Alliance or at least more anti Cerberus than her male counterparts (and those who play him.) Thoughts?

opposite for me. I hate the alliance because they just nodded their heads when the council backslid on the reapers and at least Cererus had the back bone to not only go head to head with reaper agents, but bring back possibly the one person who could destroy them to do it. (that and I like it on the SR-2 more than the SR-1.) I could do without regular reports to TIM though and the directions with the dossiers. a wise man once said "if you expect my to cook the meal, at least let me buy the groceries" I wouldn't have gotten Thane or Zaeed, probably not even Grunt, just the people who have some pull when it comes to their people (Tali with the Quarians, Legion with the Geth, Samara with the Asari).

[FireEye]

Chignon wrote...

In the end, it's just semantics and I wanted to shake some sense into Shepard when she used that line with Kaidan on Horizon.

I now go with, "The Alliance sent you here to investigate on me, didn't they? :("  It's closer to my Shepard's freakouts about  people spying on her in ME1 and makes a small amount of sense.  XD

My main problem with working for Cerberus is that Shepard goes along with it without any kind of conflict, internal or otherwise, just because she's told "this is how things are."  The player is forced, the character is not.

But then, my Shepard's ego isn't that big - if she's the only one that the galaxy can depend on to get the job done, then the galaxy can go to hell as far as she's concerned. 

[Skyline_Stanza]

Ugh, so more brain-vomit from me. (And by that, I mean wild speculations about the Reapers)

I've been thinking about the Reaper method of production, how they harvest species to recreate more of them.

I'm pretty sure that this has already been figured out, but I'll say it again: The warning etched within the Prothean beacons was probably warning against what the Reapers were doing to the Protheans, as evidence by the flashes of dripping meat and metal clicking and whirring.

It was trying to warn other members of the empire about how they Reapers were utilizing thier captured/killed victims.

When Shepard defeated Sovreign, Harbinger saw the diversity and potential the human race had to offer in Shepard. Because of that, he (it?) decided to make a Reaper out of the genetic material in humans.

Modifié par Skyline_Stanza, 15 novembre 2010 - 12:30 .

[sagefic]

There are so many ways Shep could have been more coerced. one that comes to mind is anderson could basically have told shep the alliance and council could not/would not mobilize fast enough to stop the collectors and then give a "wink, wink" to her going on ahead. but see, horizon blew that idea out, because it seems like kaidan/ash had no idea of anderson's talking to shep (i speculated that in my fanfic, because it made no sense to me otherwise).

How could you make Cerberus more "gray?"

okay, how to make cerberus more gray. for one, stop saying things went rogue, dagnabbit!. if TIM just up and said, "i will do whatever it takes to make humanity the ubermensch and survive the reapers - yes, even do the nasty things no one else will," i would - and i think shep would - respect that far more. sort of like the warden of purgatory. it's disgusting what he does, but i see his point. the only reason shep comes to hate him is he chose to mess with HER personally.

plus, if you were REALLY trying to make cerberus more "gray" , then don't continue the nasty stuff they did in ME1. jack's life is not gray. you could have pulled back a little on that, but they went full throttle on her. it was all (or mostly) cerberus' fault. if she'd had an upbringing like kaidan and became who she was, it would be just as believable, but allow both her and cerberus to be gray. plus, then she'd be more badass than just bad girl because i had no choice.

i think the long and the short of it, is it feels like cerberus is still trying to justify themselves like they don't really believe the reaper threat is worth any sacrifice. either it is and we stomp on everyone to do it or it's not worth compromising ourselves along the way and we don't. or there's some line we set down in between. but i would like shep to have made that decision. THAT would be an interesting cerberus and one worth admiring, hating, or debating. as it is, they're just sort of an incompetent parody of themselves.

Modifié par sagequeen, 15 novembre 2010 - 12:33 .

[mellifera]

Hm, well, my Shepard wanted what was best for the galaxy and felt Cerberus was a means to that end. Would she have used an alternate route if she felt she had a more viable option? Probably, but she had pretty much exhausted what she had at her disposal in the first game and they just shrugged and went back to whatever they were doing before. It was very much an "I hate you but I need you until I can go off on my own" thing with Cerberus. When she got the chance, that is exactly what she did. Until then it would have probably been pointless to abandon Cerberus since she didn't necessarily have any means to do anything when all those but a few individuals that could help her turned their backs on her.

I guess if TIM really has the same goals and was truly concerned for yoo-manity as he says, he wouldn't be so pissed she took his stuff and ran off.... lol.

Though I think it is a very important thing to note that Shepard's feelings on what is best are very much tied to her moral system and her perception of things. She didn't want to work with Cerberus because she felt they used the wrong means and she had been slighted by their actions. So yes, at the same time she wants to do things "right" to save everyone, she wants to do them in a way where she does not have to compromise herself. If it came down to it and she were forced to something to achieve that goal, she'll have to do it. It's all hypocritical in the end anyway, but if you allow yourself to believe that then what's the point of doing it all? At the end of the day Shepard is still human and if she has to choose to act and have absolute faith in those actions and her beliefs (no matter how conflicting they might be) over second guessing herself and never doing anything, then is that wrong?

Modifié par yukidama, 15 novembre 2010 - 12:46 .

[Chignon]

FireEye wrote...



My main problem with working for Cerberus is that Shepard goes along with it without any kind of conflict, internal or otherwise, just because she's told "this is how things are." The player is forced, the character is not.

This! So much!



I'm sorry to say it but to me ME2!Shepard is little more than a glorified lapdog.

[sagefic]

Chignon wrote...

FireEye wrote...

My main problem with working for Cerberus is that Shepard goes along with it without any kind of conflict, internal or otherwise, just because she's told "this is how things are." The player is forced, the character is not.

This! So much!

I'm sorry to say it but to me ME2!Shepard is little more than a glorified lapdog.

forgive me if this has been posted already, but this picture sort of makes more sense for why shep joined cerberus and acted the way that she did in ME2 than anything.

[Chignon]

That's priceless, sagequeen! And it explains everything perfectly. (;

[Hedera]

I KNEW that space hamster was up to something...

[ADLegend21]

Eh I don't think Shepard was more like a lapdog. TIM tells you why he had you resurrected you say "prove it" you go to freedom's progress, he proved it. you meet with anderson (and maybe the council) and they basically are doing the exact opposite as cerberus and they'er just letting the colonists get taken and turned into a reaper. so really even if you hated Cerbers it's the only logical choice to save those colonists and stop the reapers. and there's no way they can ignore that datapad with harbingers specs or the collector base if you save it.

[mellifera]

Haha. The entire time I was just like "I don't want to do this..." but I had to. Which is why I had a super "F**K YEAH" moment at the end when I was able to make Shepard tell TIM to go screw himself. I personally don't think calling Shepard a "glorified lapdog" is 100% true, but Shepard was definitely in a more subservient position than earlier (then again, you weren't given the choice to leave and I don't think it may have necessarily been the prudent choice to leave any earlier than the end of the game anyway).

Modifié par yukidama, 15 novembre 2010 - 12:59 .

[ADLegend21]

haha that looks like one of Sheps nightmares XD

Shep:*rolls over to LI* I jsut had the weirdest dream, my hamster was inside me controlling me like a robot.

[Chignon]

Of course, it's not 100% true - hence why I wrote "little more". But Shepard goes where TIM tells her to go, she does what TIM tells her to do, she recruits who TIM tells her to recruit - and all that with, as Fire pointed out, no reflection whatsoever.



This doesn't fit at all with the picture I had of Shepard in ME1.

[Gilsa]

ROFL @ hamster artwork. =D

[Skyline_Stanza]

ADLegend21 wrote...

haha that looks like one of Sheps nightmares XD
Shep:*rolls over to LI* I jsut had the weirdest dream, my hamster was inside me controlling me like a robot.

Liara: *stares blankly, then raises an eyebrow at her lover* Shepard, I am restricting your access to the kitchen after we retire for the night. No more Asari calamari for you!

[mellifera]

Yeah, I definitely wish there were more conflicts in regard to that. Being forced to work with Cerberus should have elicited more from Shepard, especially when it comes to those who personally lost so much because of Cerberus' actions. There should have been more acknowledgment to Shepard using them as well, and more arguments with TIM over the direction and means being used if we were going to be forced to stay with Cerberus. Though it doesn't seem that will be the case in ME3 depending on your choices.