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[Fraevar]

Chignon wrote...

FireEye wrote...

My main problem with working for Cerberus is that Shepard goes along with it without any kind of conflict, internal or otherwise, just because she's told "this is how things are." The player is forced, the character is not.

This! So much!

I'm sorry to say it but to me ME2!Shepard is little more than a glorified lapdog.

This! Triple THIS!!!

They were hyping it up as this massive conflict, having to "work with the enemy" but they then went out of their way to making Cerberus more politically-correct and taking away much of the conflict by having Shepard never question what she's told. It's like she blindly believes the propaganda she is fed and doesn't think for herself.

And it is just so damn disappointing because Cerberus' true nature is pretty well established in the ME1 UNC's and the Ascention and Retribution novels - it's like the ME2 dev team are running a parallel version of Cerberus compared to what was already established in the lore. I think we may have also hit on what gives ME2 such a weak plot - from the sound of it, the whole "working for Cerberus" angle was meant to take up a lot more of the game, and was meant to introduce a secondary conflict to dealing with the Collectors. But then they cut it and we only see the Collectors three times, four if we count the video-feed from Freedom's Progress.

Gah! Now I'm more disappointed in this game than ever!

[ADLegend21]

If you think about it Shepard's been nothing but a lapdog, even in me1. sure she was chasing after saren but anderson and Udina told her where to go for the main trhee mission. and Udina will jump on you to get Tali on your team if you refuse her. so it's almost the same treatment in me1 just coming from TIM and not Udina. I'd take that any day really.

[Sable Phoenix]

Well, despite Miranda and Illusive Man's protestations to the contrary, it's pretty obvious that Shep's a prisoner of Cerberus for the majority of the game, and by the time she's in a position to do anything about it, she's been very effectively isolated (by design, Liara working for the Shadow Broker my ass, both Miranda and TIM knew that was a lie) from any of her former allies or associates who are in a position to leverage power or resources on her behalf. Cerberus is presented as a bunch of incompetent screwups for everything they do, except for espionage and information warfare. Presumably they are in the growing pangs of transition from a pure black ops network into a true paramilitary organization (that's the most charitable way I can come up with to explain their glut of "rogue" operations). I do agree with sage that TIM should've just stuck to his guns and told Shepard "whatever it takes, no exceptions, no apologies".

But let's keep our discussion of Cerberus relevant to our femSheps, so it fits the thread. Obviously, Shepard didn't skip out on Cerberus until the end of the game. Obviously, she didn't throw her lot in with them after the end of the game. We as players don't have a choice on this. How do you justify your Shepard's actions, in-character?

Jessica firmly believed, as soon as she figured out what was what, that Chakwas and Joker were chosen specifically for their former association with her -- not for her benefit, but as hostages. She figured that if she didn't play along, not only would she be "liquidated" (which I don't think would happen, TIM seems to really believe in what he did bringing her back, but it's what she believed -- it would've actually been a relief to her, honestly), but they would first torture and/or execute Joker and Chakwas to coerce her. For the entirety of the events that took place in ME2, Jessica went along (mostly) meekly because she felt her cage bars pressing against her every second of every day, and she wanted to keep the people she still cared about (which eventually included Garrus and Tali) alive.  When she'd finally wrested the loyalty of the entire crew personally into her own control, to the point she could for the most part trust everyone on board, she breathed a huge sigh of relief at being able to safely flip TIM the bird.

I just wish that TIM had had one single line of dialogue in the entire game that carried that subtle threat; just two sentences would've made the whole game believable.  "You're free to leave us whenever you wish, Shepard.  Just remember, you're responsible for the continued good health of your former associates, as well."

Gah.  So many opportunities in ME2; it's incredible that BioWare missed all of them.

Okay, back to working on the femShep group painting!

Modifié par Sable Phoenix, 15 novembre 2010 - 01:48 .

[adneate]

FireEye wrote...
My main problem with working for Cerberus is that Shepard goes along with it without any kind of conflict, internal or otherwise, just because she's told "this is how things are."  The player is forced, the character is not.

As with all things the blame falls on the lead writer Mac Walters who wanted to show everyone how good a writer he was by writing The Illusive Man, he really didn't care about the player or Shepard or the fact that he was writing a video game not a comic book. He made a character he thought was really cool and he just needed to retcon and shove his way though the plot of ME1 in order to get everyone to be impressed by his brillant creation. The game wasn't about Shepard or The Reapers, it was about Mac Walters and The Illusive Man. If the player kept trying to turn their back on his brillant creation it would have been very hard for him to shove The Illusive Man down everyone's throat. So he just ignored it as much as possible dispite the protests from the other, much better, writers and went on his merry retconning stupid way.

[Hedera]

Sable Phoenix wrote...


But let's keep our discussion of Cerberus relevant to our femSheps, so it fits the thread. Obviously, Shepard didn't skip out on Cerberus until the end of the game. Obviously, she didn't throw her lot in with them after the end of the game. We as players don't have a choice on this. How do you justify your Shepard's actions in character for this?

She really doesn't like it.  Really isn't the best word, but I'm too tired to think of the right one.  But she understands that she has to work with them for the time being, and turn a blind eye to what has happened, so to speak until she can make her move.  Unfortunately, this laissez-faire attitude results in her beginning to agree more and more, until she has almost completely forgotten her hatred for them (Indoctrination?! )
But then Horizon comes, and reminds her what she's fighting for.  

[FireEye]

ADLegend21 wrote...

If you think about it Shepard's been nothing but a lapdog, even in me1. sure she was chasing after saren but anderson and Udina told her where to go for the main trhee mission. and Udina will jump on you to get Tali on your team if you refuse her. so it's almost the same treatment in me1 just coming from TIM and not Udina. I'd take that any day really.

You could rail against the Council, you could cut them off mid-conversation, and you could conspire to kill them at the end of the game.  That's a hell of a lot more freedom than we get with tIM.  Personally, I liked Udina as a character.  He was a rat, but at least he wasn't over the top.  And it's equally fun to tell him off as it is the Council, if not more so.  In ME1, you could at least bite the hand that fed you.

adneate wrote...

As with all things the blame falls on the lead writer Mac Walters who wanted to show everyone how good a writer he was by writing The Illusive Man, he really didn't care about the player or Shepard or the fact that he was writing a video game not a comic book. He made a character he thought was really cool and he just needed to retcon and shove his way though the plot of ME1 in order to get everyone to be impressed by his brillant creation. The game wasn't about Shepard or The Reapers, it was about Mac Walters and The Illusive Man. If the player kept trying to turn their back on his brillant creation it would have been very hard for him to shove The Illusive Man down everyone's throat. So he just ignored it as much as possible dispite the protests from the other, much better, writers and went on his merry retconning stupid way.

Yeah... the interviews make it pretty clear that tIM is Walters' pet, if not his avatar.  ME1 is a game that tries hard to involve you in the story, even if it may fail on some levels; ME2 just wants to tell you a story, which is fine, but not what I wanted from it.

*shrug*  Perssonal preferences, and I prefer the former, myself.

As for Cerberus and Shepard... My Shepard would have shot herself the minute she knew for sure that she couldn't get away.  The closest I get in game is jumping in front of that YMIR on Freedom's Progress - either way, she doesn't get through it.  I guess she gets replaced by a clone or something. 

Modifié par FireEye, 15 novembre 2010 - 01:58 .

[Skyline_Stanza]

Sable Phoenix wrote...

I just wish that TIM had had one single line of dialogue in the entire game that carried that subtle threat; just two sentences would've made the whole game believable.  "You're free to leave us whenever you wish, Shepard.  Just remember, you're responsible for the continued good health of your former associates, as well."

Again, there goes Sable, hitting the nail right on the head! It would have made me love to hate the Illusive Man even more as well as make the story seem a little more plausible.

As for my Shep, I think I've stated her opinion on Cerberus: she sees them as necessary because they take the Reaper threat seriously, unlike the Council. They gave her a ship, and some old friends, but she still wouldn't trust them as far as she could throw them.  

Modifié par Skyline_Stanza, 15 novembre 2010 - 02:08 .

[Gilsa]

Re: Justifying actions in character about Cerberus

He brought her back, gave her the keys to Normandy, has her old pilot flying for her and let her bring back some of her old crew. Add that to TIM understanding what a big threat the Reapers were (compared to the craptastic council that wanted evidence for everything before they lifted a finger). It was just a mutual partnership with a bit of "the end justifies the means" thrown in.

Edit: I also liked Jacob's rationale for working for Cerebus instead of Alliance. What he said made a lot of sense. It really was about getting things done rather than making sure you're wearing the right uniform.

Edit 2: This is why, even though I'm not a Cerebus cheerleader, I wore the DLC uniform instead of the default armor with the stripe on the arm. I wanted to symbolize she was working for someone else because that stripe on the arm, to me, symbolizes working for the Alliance. The blue glows on the DLC armor (can't remember the name, sorry) reflected that she had very nice high-tech armor (and I LOVED how she stood shoulder to shoulder with Kaidan because he was wearing armor with fancy glowing orbs to indicate he had moved on up as well). If she's back with the Alliance in ME3, bring on the stripes, baby!

Modifié par Gilsa, 15 novembre 2010 - 02:09 .

[jillyfae]

Yeah, the state Ella was in at the beginning of the game, she would've shot Jacob at his revelation he was Cerberus, and followed that up by going after Miranda and Wilson, and probably died in a blaze of glory via out-of-control mech's, since she didn't have armor, or extra weapons, or even a functioning implant. (She was a vanguard who suddenly couldn't throw or warp or lift and had this weird charge thing? insta-death.)

So, not allowing me that much RP freedom was probably wise, cause Ella never would've made it into the game, but there should've been something. I mean, Jacob drops this bombshell, and she goes 'huh, I think I remember them.'

[sagefic]

Sable Phoenix wrote...

How do you justify your Shepard's actions, in-character?

With fanfiction.

Seriously, I took to fanfiction because the lack of cohesion bothered me SO MUCH.

It was either the scenario I came up with, something roughly equivalent to that, or space hamsters are controlling her brain.

[Skyline_Stanza]

sagequeen wrote...

Sable Phoenix wrote...

How do you justify your Shepard's actions, in-character?

With fanfiction.

Seriously, I took to fanfiction because the lack of cohesion bothered me SO MUCH.

It was either the scenario I came up with, something roughly equivalent to that, or space hamsters are controlling her brain.

And might I say, your scenario was WAY more plausible than what ME2 came up with. (as if  I didn't sound like a fanboy enough, but it's the truth!)

[syllogi]

sagequeen wrote...

Sable Phoenix wrote...

How do you justify your Shepard's actions, in-character?

With fanfiction.

Seriously, I took to fanfiction because the lack of cohesion bothered me SO MUCH.

It was either the scenario I came up with, something roughly equivalent to that, or space hamsters are controlling her brain.

I started writing my character's backstory recently, but I have no idea how I'll justify ME2 from Gwen Shepard's perspective.  There is no way she would be so passive and accepting about working for Cerberus and having no real contact with the Systems Alliance (no, Anderson and/or the Citadel Council don't count).  And at the very least, she would call her mom as soon as she found a communicator after being awoken.  Gwen is a good daughter, no matter what the game claims.  =P

[adneate]

Sable Phoenix wrote...
How do you justify your Shepard's actions, in-character?

Much like you I feel like Danielle and Colleen are essentially hostages to Cerberus, in a perfect world both of them would have just shot Miranda and Jacob in the head on the Lazarus Station and took the shuttle by herself. However that's not a choice so they get roped in and manipulated and forced to do things, trying to make the best of an awful situation and not let Cerberus comprimise who they are as people. I hope Cerberus gets blown to hell in ME3 and Shepard gets to execute The Illusive Man, to hell with that organization.

Honestly LotSB is better than the whole of Mass Effect 2, Shepard finally felt free and actually happy in her life.

[Skyline_Stanza]

Y'know, I REALLY love the atmosphere of Mass Effect. The first game, I mean. Bioware really outdid themselves with this one, in my opinion. I say this as I take Cam through a NG+, and I just have to sit back and MARVEL at the world that these people have created. Spectres, biotics, the Reapers, asari, turians, all of it.

Such a rich and wonderful sci-fi world. :3 Complete with a self-reliant, confident FemShep. I love it!

When your Shepard was just an Alliance soldier, before the events of Eden Prime, what was their opinion of the Spectres? Had they heard much of them at all?

Cam was distrustful of them, both as individuals and as a whole. She didn't trust Nihlus, not because he was a turian, like most believed, but because she thought that Spectres were dangerous. They could do almost anything with thier ability to bend the law, on the grounds that it was 'for galactic stability'.

When she became one, she vowed never to let it go to her head, just like she vowed to never let her emotions get in the way of a mission, like Torfan.

She's human, and is allowed to make mistakes, which means she's has some slip ups every now and again, but she takes full responsibility for her actions.
 
But yeah, general distrust of the Spectres before she became one, and a sort of general respect for them when she became one. "They represent the best of thier species." as she once said to al-Jilani. (and no, she was a good girl and got through the interview without having to Shepard punch! that reporter in the face.)  

Modifié par Skyline_Stanza, 15 novembre 2010 - 03:18 .

[sagefic]

Skyline_Stanza wrote...

sagequeen wrote...

Sable Phoenix wrote...

How do you justify your Shepard's actions, in-character?

With fanfiction.

Seriously, I took to fanfiction because the lack of cohesion bothered me SO MUCH.

It was either the scenario I came up with, something roughly equivalent to that, or space hamsters are controlling her brain.

And might I say, your scenario was WAY more plausible than what ME2 came up with. (as if  I didn't sound like a fanboy enough, but it's the truth!)

heh. thanks. i am not-so-secretly hoping that my theories will all turn out to be correct. muahahaha!

*ahem*

Truly though, I think the real "fail" for ME2 was the decentralization of the narrative from a single story with Shepard as the main character to multiple short stories with Shepard as the lens/avatar by which we access the short stories. Shepard doesn't feel like she really plays any part or role until LotSB - which is why I LOVED it and it was the much-needed epilogue to the ME2 short story collection.

THAT, I think, was the true tragedy of ME2: it wasn't just that it gave no truly plausible reason why Shepard HAD to work with Cerberus, It was that she was railroaded in her mission AND her ability to have any reaction to that situation. her personality - whatever it might be - seemed utterly stripped away - she couldn't b*tch about her lot or demonstrate a false, stoic front or even laugh at the alliance and revel in her new, well-monied sponsor. And the player was railroaded out of an equal-parts shooter/RPG into a game that had a nifty content, but sometimes seemed to lose it's soul.

^hmm... that sounds highly negative. i do LOVE ME2. it's just that when I get to the end, I realize that every monumental or emotional or "h*ll yeah!" reaction was me, the player, reacting - not Shepard reacting. that was not true of ME1. and what i loved mass effect for in the first place was blurring the line between the player, the avatar, and the character of femshep. mass effect 2 had its moments, but they were few and far between.

(edited for grammar)

Modifié par sagequeen, 15 novembre 2010 - 03:45 .

[Fraevar]

*sniff* That was beautiful, sagequeen ;D

You nailed it...absolutely nailed it.

[jlb524]

Yes, that was well said, sage!

[adneate]

sagequeen wrote...
Truly though, I think the real "fail" for ME2 was the decentralization of the narrative from a single story with Shepard as the main character to multiple short stories with Shepard as the lens/avatar by which we access the short stories. Shepard doesn't feel like she really plays any part or role until LotSB - which is why I LOVED it and it was the much-needed epilogue to the ME2 short story collection.

Was there even any point to ME2? Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the end state of ME2 just ME1? The Reapers are coming and we have to fight them off, that was where ME1 left us. To this day I don't really understand why the Collectors were made out to be this great big galactic threat that only Shepard could take care of. They were making a Reaper and using humans to do it but they only attacked undefended border colonies in hit and run attacks. They needed to depopulate Earth in order to finish the damn reaper and they only had the one ship, which the Normandy (A Frigate) blew up during the Suicide Mission. I doubt the Earth Home Fleet would be any easier to deal with. Were they trying to build another Reaper to replace Sovereign and have it do what? The same thing Soverign failed to do in ME1? If at first you don't succeed do exactly the same thing again? It doesn't just feel like a set of short stories that vaguely involve Shepard it feels like a bit of a waste of time, In the grand scheme of things it doesn't really feel like we did much of anything to prepare for the Reapers.

Guess that's what you get when you let a comic book writer handle the plot for a video game in the middle of a 3 part series, he F's it up royally. It's a fun game to play and a few of the characters are cool but the story went down the tubes.

[Skyline_Stanza]

Sage, you always seem to find the right words for my frustrations.

*goes back to helping Cam through a NG+ on Eden Prime*

Modifié par Skyline_Stanza, 15 novembre 2010 - 04:02 .

[ADLegend21]

okay this thread is starting to sound like the "disappointed with Mass effect 2" thread in the plot forum. so here's a random Kallen screenshot.

[Skyline_Stanza]

adneate wrote...

sagequeen wrote...
Truly though, I think the real "fail" for ME2 was the decentralization of the narrative from a single story with Shepard as the main character to multiple short stories with Shepard as the lens/avatar by which we access the short stories. Shepard doesn't feel like she really plays any part or role until LotSB - which is why I LOVED it and it was the much-needed epilogue to the ME2 short story collection.

Was there even any point to ME2? Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the end state of ME2 just ME1? The Reapers are coming and we have to fight them off, that was where ME1 left us. To this day I don't really understand why the Collectors were made out to be this great big galactic threat that only Shepard could take care of. They were making a Reaper and using humans to do it but they only attacked undefended border colonies in hit and run attacks. They needed to depopulate Earth in order to finish the damn reaper and they only had the one ship, which the Normandy (A Frigate) blew up during the Suicide Mission. I doubt the Earth Home Fleet would be any easier to deal with. Were they trying to build another Reaper to replace Sovereign and have it do what? The same thing Soverign failed to do in ME1? If at first you don't succeed do exactly the same thing again? It doesn't just feel like a set of short stories that vaguely involve Shepard it feels like a bit of a waste of time, In the grand scheme of things it doesn't really feel like we did much of anything to prepare for the Reapers.

Guess that's what you get when you let a comic book writer handle the plot for a video game in the middle of a 3 part series, he F's it up royally. It's a fun game to play and a few of the characters are cool but the story went down the tubes.

Oh wow. Now that you mention it....wow, Bioware. Just wow.

On another note, FemShep! Does she have a favorite dessert?

Modifié par Skyline_Stanza, 15 novembre 2010 - 04:06 .

[Vanguard1219]

Wow, just... wow. What the gorram hell did I just come back to in this thread?

As far as the whole "Cerberus" topic of discussion goes I'm just going to say that I really hope there will be a Renegade interrupt that lets you empty an entire thermal clip worth of bullets into TIM in ME3. Beyond that just keep an eye out for the fic that tells Morgan's story as I write it if you want my actual opinion. At this point there's no real point discussing it here.

Oh, and one more thing;


Morgan is appalled by your hatred of the Alliance. You know who you are

We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming...

Modifié par Vanguard1219, 15 novembre 2010 - 04:37 .

[FireEye]

adneate wrote...

Was there even any point to ME2? Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the end state of ME2 just ME1? The Reapers are coming and we have to fight them off, that was where ME1 left us. To this day I don't really understand why the Collectors were made out to be this great big galactic threat that only Shepard could take care of. They were making a Reaper and using humans to do it but they only attacked undefended border colonies in hit and run attacks. They needed to depopulate Earth in order to finish the damn reaper and they only had the one ship, which the Normandy (A Frigate) blew up during the Suicide Mission. I doubt the Earth Home Fleet would be any easier to deal with. Were they trying to build another Reaper to replace Sovereign and have it do what? The same thing Soverign failed to do in ME1? If at first you don't succeed do exactly the same thing again? It doesn't just feel like a set of short stories that vaguely involve Shepard it feels like a bit of a waste of time, In the grand scheme of things it doesn't really feel like we did much of anything to prepare for the Reapers.

Guess that's what you get when you let a comic book writer handle the plot for a video game in the middle of a 3 part series, he F's it up royally. It's a fun game to play and a few of the characters are cool but the story went down the tubes.

But... didn't you notice all the shiny, new characters and ship they made to replace the boring old ones that nobody liked? 

... Okay.  I really shouldn't be allowed to talk about ME2 while I'm playing it, 'cause it ain't fair on anyone.  Back to FemShep!

[adneate]

Skyline_Stanza wrote...
On another note, FemShep! Does she have a favorite dessert?

Yes, chocolate chip cookies. Anyone who says otherwise is guilty of a thoughtcrime.