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[ELE08]

sagequeen wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

Not to change the subject, but I'd like to get opinions on something. 

FemShep and the cougar syndrome of ME2. 

In ME1, both Kaidan and Liara pursued femShep as a romantic interest. Kaidan was very subtle about it, but his intent was pretty obvious, while Liara just blatantly put it out there. Still, they both instigated the initial pursuit. 

In ME2, to varying degrees, femShep was the instigator in all the romances. While that in and of itself is not bad, it just seems a little stale that there is only one way to play it. Yes, ME2 gives the player a bit more control, and I understand why that would be preferable to some people. Yes, ME2 gets around the "accidental" romance of DA:O, but there is a cost, to my mind, in RP w/ only one set way. My question is, what do you, especially the woman here, think of femShep's role in the ME2 romances and how would you change it, if you wanted to change it?

hah! i was complaining about this to my hubby last night. my 2 biggest beefs with ME2 - even more than horizon, which i really have come to like in a weird way - is 1) that Shepard NEVER considers/discusses/questions her death and resurrection (i mean really, wth!?) and 2) the cougar-shep thing.

again, i had this eye-opening moment when i saw a person comment that femshep/jacob was his/her favorite romance because "nothing is hotter than a hot woman coming on strong to an average guy."

i assume it was a guy who said that, and it really makes me feel like ME2 was primarily written in that regard for straight guys of a certain young and immature age. they don't want their hawt-femshep ninjamanced, so femshep has to make the move. the romances - even when they have really sweet, touching moments - have to be femshep intitated and little to NO interest in shown from the males first. again, i think it's because guys complained about their femsheps being ninjamanced. however, no one complained about maleshep being hit on.

frankly, as a girl player, it is just one more case for me of realizing that games aren't primarily written for my demographic AT ALL. if i'm lucky, if find things in them that i like. the kaidan romance - pure gold, imo. but it's the sort of romance and charachter that was meant to appeal to straight women - and you'll notice that many of the women who like it are actually a little "older" - as in, mid-twenties on up. they (we) have met a few guys and look at the kaidan-mance as "yeah, that's the kind of guy you really look for in the long run." - and that's probably why the vast majority of young, straight male players of FPS just don't like or get it. sort of the same way that i can't stand miranda's armor - it wasn't designed with me in mind.

anyhow, that's my take: the romances in ME2 were done to appeal to the greatest # of people and the demographics speak to another type of player than me. i think they firmly kept in mind the complains of male gamers that got ninjamanced, to the exclusion of female players who would have loved to see thane or garrus or jacob showing signs of falling for shepard long before she returned the sentiment.

my 2 cents.

-snip-

Kyrie says, "I am not the demographic either."

Yep, to the bolded part.

Irony alert: Kaidan and Jacob were actually written by the same person.

OT: I'm not sure if I agree the ME2 romances were written with the male demographic in mind or if they were just trying to avoid the ninja-mance and/or trying a different approach to romances.
I personally really dislike like cougarshep.

1 - Having femshep so obviously predatory in tone of voice takes away from immersion and RP. I'm pretty much over it at this point, but cougarshep talking to Jacob is not how I see my femshep behaving even if she was interested.

2 - I like Shep being assertive, but it has to be a give and take. ME2 felt a little more one-sided than ME1, with femshep being the one pushing the relationship. Speaking for myself, I like it when a guy shows interest. One of my main gripes with Jacob is he often times seemed very stand-offish and reluctant. Major turnoff.

My opinion on ME2 is limited to Jacob and Garrus since I haven't played through Thane myself and watching it on youtube doesn't really give the full picture. Femshep seems a little less aggressive in the Thane-mance at least, but there is still the oddly paraphrased "I want you" line to trigger the romance.

ToP

Modifié par ELE08, 12 février 2011 - 09:12 .

[ADLegend21]

Timberley wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

Tup3xi wrote...

This one wonders what Grunt is doing to Shep.

/Space-Saving-Pic-Snip Dibbler...

Something great if your Shep likes to get Kinky.

Heh heh.  Well, I somehow doubt Krogan love-making would be... restrained...

One thing I did wonder at the end of Grunt's loyalty mission; EDI informs you that there's a breeding request for Shepard (that could be dependent on killing the Thresher Maw though).  What crazy Krogan would decide "I know, I'll get on the good foot and do the bad thing with a human woman.." ? Chances are, it could be... painful (and not in a good way)!

Tim

haha I can imagine that some women somewhere (I know one personally) would jump at the chance for Wrex or grunt to be romanceable. Trust me, I've scene the fics (and wrote a coupe of one shots myself) even one where Femshep was like "eh that was alright". oh the possibilites.

[sagefic]

 re: cougar shep - don't get me wrong. there is a part of me that likes shep being the one to initiate. however, i really read the me1 romances as equal parts initiation. the fact that kaidan says he's going to need some time to process shep's interest indicates to me that she is coming on to him as much as he was expressing interest. it was a lack of options to turn him down, not cougarness on kaidan's part, that leads to the ninjamance there. and i do like that shep can be so strong as to say she's intersted. it's just that take her initiation in conjunction with the maleshep romances all hitting on him first (esp. tali), and it begins to seem pretty unbalanced.

me, i wish all LIs expressed slight interest and shep could then come on to them as strong or subtle as he/she liked. but i also realize with the dialog trees necessary to pull that off, it's not gonna happen.

on another note, was anyone wondering what kyrie was going to do with the geth? so was i. i had no idea what her final decision would be. turns out, she is clearly a paraGRADE:



"Hmmm....."



BOOM!

[Tup3x]

In my opinion the romance thing was perfect in KOTOR. Very classy and well done; for both male and female Revan.

Kaidan is always Carth to me, by the way.

Modifié par Tup3xi, 12 février 2011 - 09:14 .

[Sable Phoenix]

ELE08 wrote...

sagequeen wrote...

anyhow, that's my take: the romances in ME2 were done to appeal to the greatest # of people and the demographics speak to another type of player than me. i think they firmly kept in mind the complains of male gamers that got ninjamanced, to the exclusion of female players who would have loved to see thane or garrus or jacob showing signs of falling for shepard long before she returned the sentiment.

Yep, to the bolded part.

Irony alert: Kaidan and Jacob were actually written by the same person.

OT: I'm not sure if I agree the ME2 romances were written with the male demographic in mind or if they were just trying to avoid the ninja-mance and/or trying a different approach to romances.
I personally really dislike like cougarshep.

1 - Having femshep so obviously predatory in tone of voice takes away from immersion and RP. I'm pretty much over it at this point, but cougarshep talking to Jacob is not how I see my femshep behaving even if she was interested.

2 - I like Shep being assertive, but it has to be a give and take. ME2 felt a little more one-sided than ME1, with femshep being the one pushing the relationship. Speaking for myself, I like it when a guy shows interest. One of my main gripes with Jacob is he often times seemed very stand-offish and reluctant. Major turnoff.

My opinion on ME2 is limited to Jacob and Garrus since I haven't played through Thane myself and watching it on youtube doesn't really give the full picture. Femshep seems a little less aggressive in the Thane-mance at least, but there is still the oddly paraphrased "I want you" line to trigger the romance.

Yeah, pretty much all of this.  I guess that's why Garrus' romance is the only one in ME2 that I actually like, it's awkward and funny and true to the characters, in my mind, that Shepard would be the instigator.  Nevertheless, as you say, give and take would make things a lot better.  And yes, standoffishness is a major turnoff.  Huge.  Like "why am I bothering to waste my time?" huge.  Also why Thane doesn't seem to click for me, I think... he's always so distant and detached, at least until the cabin scene before the Omega 4 jump.  I can see how he was designed to be physically attractive to female players, but I've never found his personality attractive, even though he's interesting and I like him as a character.

Anyway, yes, the LIs showing some actual desire for femShep would be a nice change.  In ME1, you knew that the LIs really wanted her.  In ME2 it's more like, "Oh, sex?  Sure, why not."  That's the other reason Garrus' is the only one that works, IMO, because there's more to the relationship that's already been established (unless you were a total idiot and didn't recruit him in ME1, in which case his entire role in ME2 is kind of WTF-ish).

Modifié par Sable Phoenix, 12 février 2011 - 09:17 .

[rage-monk]

sagequeen wrote...

[...] the fact that kaidan says he's going to need some time to process shep's interest indicates to me that she is coming on to him as much as he was expressing interest. it was a lack of options to turn him down, not cougarness on kaidan's part, that leads to the ninjamance there. [...]

I never really want to have to turn him down, I've never wanted to initiate something in the first place!

[Sentox6]

To be honest, as a male gamer I struggle to even understand the complaint about getting ninjamanced as a FemShep. I can only assume these people have never experienced real life. You don't initiate everything, and sometimes you have to let people down. It's not like the game tricks you into getting romanced (as long as you pay attention to the dialogue tree, I guess). You just say you're not interested and that's that.

I wouldn't mind seeing some variety. Give us a LI that comes on strong, and one that you have to pursue. Hell, let us fail miserably trying to romance crew members that aren't attracted to Shepard (Samara was something of a step towards this). Then they can file harassment complaints and... never mind.

Anyway, the problem with Jacob is that you can't avoid the cougar tone from the moment you open dialogue. It's plain frustrating trying to pick your way through the tree without invoking even more cringe-inducing flirting. So for any player who isn't trying to romance Jacob from the start, they're going to feel rail-roaded (and their sense of immersion is broken by the seemingly out-of-character behaviour).

Modifié par Sentox6, 12 février 2011 - 09:31 .

[ADLegend21]

RE:cougar shep



idk about Jacob's standoffish nes, it only happens if you try to "fix" him because that just pisses him off, but if you just display interest he starts to warm up to you. IMO garruses was completely awkward, until he starts making innuendos which is cute. Thane's is just....I can't even describe it. Kallen tried them all and I liked her best with Jacob, just because it fit her best, especially the venting dialouge which was like "did he just ask me...how I feel?? (what is this...i don't even)" so that him in my good books. but als he's got a ton of stuff against him but he gets some femsheps!

[Sable Phoenix]

Sentox6 wrote...

To be honest, as a male gamer I struggle
to even understand the complaint about getting ninjamanced as a FemShep.
I can only assume these people have never experienced real life. You
don't initiate everything, and sometimes you have to let people down.
It's not like the game tricks you into getting romanced. You just say
you're not interested and that's that.

I wouldn't mind seeing
some variety. Give us a LI that comes on strong, and one that you have
to pursue. Hell, let us fail miserably trying to romance crew members
that aren't attracted to Shepard (Samara was something of a step towards
this). Then they can file harassment complaints and... never mind.

Anyway,
the problem with Jacob is that you can't avoid the cougar tone from the
moment you open dialogue. It's plain frustrating trying to pick your
way through the tree without invoking even more cringe-inducing
flirting. So for any player who isn't trying to romance Jacob from the
start, they're going to feel rail-roaded (and their sense of immersion
is broken by the seemingly out-of-character behaviour).

I thought the point sage, ELE, and I were making was is exactly what we anted to see more of in ME2?

I've never minded ninjamances.  Heck, my first playthrough of Dragon Age, I was surprised by Leliana's confession of her attraction to my female Warden, I didn't even know that could happen.  It makes the characters feel as if they have their own lives and desires outside of what you tell them to do.

Modifié par Sable Phoenix, 12 février 2011 - 09:29 .

[leggywillow]

Re: Cougar Shep (I'll refrain from posting the "ShepWolf" video... lol)

I much prefer ME1.  I agree with Sage that ME1 seemed equal parts Kaidan/Liara/Ashley coming on to Shep and vice versa.  Shep seemed to initiate the actual relationship... BUT the other party's interest was clearly established before that.  In ME2, it very much seemed like Shep was pursuing people who hadn't vocalized any interest in her, which made me sad.  Jacob will admit to checking out Shepard beforehand, but that's after you sexually harass press him a bit.

I guess they were reacting to complaints about "ninja romances", which is very fair I suppose.  I've never tried to make a single Shepard, so I can't comment on how hard it may have been to stay single and still talk to squadmates.  I think this is an example of them using ME2 to "fix" things that garnered a lot of complaints in ME1 (along with the combat system and losing the Mako, for example).  Hopefully ME3 will be able to strike the perfect balance!



"Do you hear that Joker?  You'd better hit on me in ME3."
"But Commander, I don't even like you like that--"
"EVERYONE LOVES THE COMMANDER, FOOL!"

[Sentox6]

ADLegend21 wrote...
Kallen tried them all

I'll bet she did

[rage-monk]

Tup3xi wrote...

In my opinion the romance thing was perfect in KOTOR. Very classy and well done; for both male and female Revan.

Kaidan is always Carth to me, by the way.

Ohoho, Carth was so not smooth in his approach that I figuratively smacked him down when he advanced on me Lady Revan after like five minutes on Telos. I didn't realise there was romance in KotOR until I started using mods after a few playthroughs (female PCs only).
It was quite a traumatising event for me.<_<
Bastila and (thanks to modding) Lady Revan was much better:devil: , despite the bug.

[Chignon]

Sable Phoenix wrote...

That's the other reason Garrus' is the only one that works, IMO, because there's more to the relationship that's already been established (unless you were a total idiot and didn't recruit him in ME1, in which case his entire role in ME2 is kind of WTF-ish).

Am I misreading you or are you calling people who did not recruit Garrus in ME1 idiots?


Re: Cougarshep

I dislike it when Shepard does something without it being prompted by a dialogue option I, as the player, chose.

[Tup3x]

^^What, you don't think that she only wanted to talk?

Sentox6 wrote...

To be honest, as a male gamer I struggle to even understand the complaint about getting ninjamanced as a FemShep. I can only assume these people have never experienced real life. You don't initiate everything, and sometimes you have to let people down. It's not like the game tricks you into getting romanced. You just say you're not interested and that's that.

I wouldn't mind seeing some variety. Give us a LI that comes on strong, and one that you have to pursue. Hell, let us fail miserably trying to romance crew members that aren't attracted to Shepard (Samara was something of a step towards this). Then they can file harassment complaints and... never mind.

Anyway, the problem with Jacob is that you can't avoid the cougar tone from the moment you open dialogue. It's plain frustrating trying to pick your way through the tree without invoking even more cringe-inducing flirting. So for any player who isn't trying to romance Jacob from the start, they're going to feel rail-roaded (and their sense of immersion is broken by the seemingly out-of-character behaviour).

You sure about that? In ME1 it was rather easy to get ninjamanced by Liara (and that's something I really tried to avoid when playing femShep). You have to basically say go to hell and mind your own business or your Shep can get ninjamanced. That's not a problem in ME2, though.

Modifié par Tup3xi, 12 février 2011 - 09:35 .

[Sentox6]

Chignon wrote...
I dislike it when Shepard does something without it being prompted by a dialogue option I, as the player, chose.

This.

The ninjamance complaint, as I understand it, is that it's too easy to end up in an unwanted romantic situation. Funnily enough, the problem with the FemShep/Jacob interaction is much the same, except it's bashing you over the head instead of sneaking up on you. Mongolmancing, if you will.

Tup3xi wrote...
You sure about that? In ME1 it was rather
easy to get ninjamanced by Liara (and that's something I really tried
to avoid when playing femShep). You have to basically say go to hell
and mind your own business or your Shep can get ninjamanced. That's not
a problem in ME2, though.

I suppose that's true. If you make a habit of talking to your squad after each mission, and don't know what dialogue options are critical, you may find yourself in trouble.

Modifié par Sentox6, 12 février 2011 - 09:41 .

[ELE08]

leggywillow wrote...

I guess they were reacting to complaints about "ninja romances", which is very fair I suppose.  I've never tried to make a single Shepard, so I can't comment on how hard it may have been to stay single and still talk to squadmates.  I think this is an example of them using ME2 to "fix" things that garnered a lot of complaints in ME1 (along with the combat system and losing the Mako, for example).  Hopefully ME3 will be able to strike the perfect balance!

Honestly, I've made a few single Sheps and I've never had a problem talking to the squadmates.  But, I've also played the game like a bajillion times quite a bit and have all the dialogue trees memorized.  It seems a common enough complaint that people who were just trying to be friendly accidentally triggered the romance.

I'm curious to see how DAII implement the 'tone' icons.  I doubt we'll see anything like that in ME3, but it would make it easier to differentiate between friend dialogue and romance dialogue.  Of course in ME2 there's hardly any friend dialogue to speak of anyways.  It just sort of stops abruptly if there is no romance going.

[ADLegend21]

Sentox6 wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...
Kallen tried them all

I'll bet she did

um....I'm not sure what you're insinuating.

[Sentox6]

ADLegend21 wrote...
um....I'm not sure what you're insinuating.

Sorry, I was just bemused by your choice of phrasing. It makes them sound like shoes or earrings or whatnot

[Chignon]

Tup3xi wrote...

^^What, you don't think that she only wanted to talk?

The only time Noah speaks with Jacob, she doesn't look too happy about it.



(I'll have to clarify, I think. It's not Jacob's fault. I just can't stomach Noah sounding the way she does when speaking with someone she barely knows and is most certainly not interested in.)

Modifié par Chignon, 12 février 2011 - 09:58 .

[ADLegend21]

Sentox6 wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...
um....I'm not sure what you're insinuating.

Sorry, I was just bemused by your choice of phrasing. It makes them sound like shoes or earrings or whatnot

ahhh, yeah I copied her single ME1 self three times for each and I felt acob was the best LI for her (on the 360 with no mods that is....) We all know who her prefered choice is when it switches to the PC.

[Tup3x]

Chignon wrote...

Tup3xi wrote...

^^What, you don't think that she only wanted to talk?

The only time Noah speaks with Jacob, she doesn't look too happy about it.

/snip

(I'll have to clarify, I think. It's not Jacob's fault. I just can't stomach Noah sounding the way she does when speaking with someone she barely knows and is most certainly not interested in.)

Yeah... It's definitely something that you don't expect to hear. To be honest I would be scared if female corporal would have talked to me like that in the army. But Cerberus is not Alliance so... but still.

Modifié par Tup3xi, 12 février 2011 - 10:35 .

[Sentox6]

ADLegend21 wrote...
ahhh, yeah I copied her single ME1 self three times for each and I felt acob was the best LI for her (on the 360 with no mods that is....) We all know who her prefered choice is when it switches to the PC.

Yeah, I think my little joke is funnier if you imagine her as the same person 'trying' half the crew to see who's best

You can set up gender locked romances on the 360; it's a little more difficult than PC, but still doable.

[ADLegend21]

Sentox6 wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...
ahhh, yeah I copied her single ME1 self three times for each and I felt acob was the best LI for her (on the 360 with no mods that is....) We all know who her prefered choice is when it switches to the PC.

Yeah, I think my little joke is funnier if you imagine her as the same person 'trying' half the crew to see who's best

hah oh lord "*garrus's turns ends* Alright who's next...Grunt get in here!" I need something to take my mind out of where it's going.

[Jade Elf]

Yeah, Jacob's romance was a bit over-done, at least as far as the directing of the voice acting goes. It does get better later on though, with regards to the dialogue, IMO. But for my current playthrough it was perfect, Ana thought she'd initiate a more personal approach and saw it as teasing Jacob a little to start with, to throw him off balance. In the end though, she got side-tracked by Kelly, of all people. Ana has decided to leave it that for now... (currently pre-IFF mission in the game, in the middle of LotSB).

And I might as well post some more pics of Ana while I'm at it.


What did you just say?


Really..?

[netfire_]

Ophelia Rivets wrote...

Haha, I'm waiting relutantly for it to reach quadruple digits! We should have a derp party on page 1000. ;P

I don't know what that is, but I want one!