42753 réponses à ce sujet

[TheMarshal]

You guys are right, I have no idea what those statistics mean, how they were collected, or anything. 80%, however, is pretty significant, even if you take into account people who rolled up a ManShep and couldn't even make it through the intro listening to MonoMeer.

I absolutely believe that the FemShep fan base is more 'into' our characters than the ManShep fan base, simply based on the sheer volume of fanfic, fanvids, fanart, etc. that I've seen. That's the nature of the game that Bioware's playing, though. They're going for the shooter crowd, who as a group isn't looking to develop Shepard beyond what they see in the game. Bioware is missing out on the 'hardcore' rpg players by taking this route, but I guess they figured that the fps player crowd is where the money is?

It's possible that throwing some marketing money in FemShep's direction could attract some of those more 'dedicated' fans, but without any research on my side, I have no idea how that would affect the bottom line.

*edit* Top 'o' the page FemShep!

Modifié par TheMarshal, 17 février 2011 - 06:49 .

[Sentox6]

TheMarshal wrote...
As much as I'd like to believe that marketing would be alright with including FemShep in some of their materials, I'm fairly convinced that showing a female in that role would potentially scare off/weird out their new core base (or at least what they think is their core base), which is first-person shooter fans.  Call me prejudiced, but I've seen too many fps-ers fit the stereotype of "rawr rawr men shoot!" to think otherwise.

There's just no way that this demographic is their new core base. I know plenty of these gamers IRL, and no matter how marketing spins the game or the designers streamline combat, the focus on dialogue and interaction is far, far too great to ever appeal. I'm not saying that shooter fans don't play ME, just that the "rawr rawr men shoot!" type almost certainly don't.

That said, no doubt a great portion of the player base are most comfortable with a standard male lead.

Edit: also, FPS != TPS. That just bugs me a lot.

Modifié par Sentox6, 17 février 2011 - 06:45 .

[NM7]

TheMarshal wrote...
As much as I'd like to believe that marketing would be alright with including FemShep in some of their materials, I'm fairly convinced that showing a female in that role would potentially scare off/weird out their new core base (or at least what they think is their core base), which is first-person shooter fans.  Call me prejudiced, but I've seen too many fps-ers fit the stereotype of "rawr rawr men shoot!" to think otherwise.

I don't really get this idea of scaring people off the game by putting a female Shepard on the box. If the people they want to sell the game to weren't interested in the first two games, even with all the maleshep advertising, then why are they going to be interested in the third game?

On the other hand, someone who has played either or both of the first two games is going to be aware that you can play as a female Shepard, (you would hope) even if they've chosen not to. If that person is interested in ME3, they're going to buy the game regardless of who's on the box.

The easy thing for them to do is either don't put Shepard, male or female on the box, or make the cover reversible. To bury your head in the sand and pretend femshep doesn't exist for fear of scaring away people who aren't interested in your product doesn't make sense to me.

[jwalker]

Aislinn Trista wrote...

That's pretty much exactly how I play Trista. =-) No stasis, though.  It's such a ridiculous power.

It's bugged and you get an even bigger damage bonus than you're supposed to.  Which is why that person is one-shotting YMIR Mechs and Scions.  On Insanity.

The only bug regarding Stasis is the huge damage boost when is wearing off. This is Christina Norman's post addressing this issue.

Personally, I have no problem exploiting that bug when is the last enemy in the map. Dealing with a Scion or Heavy Mech in that situation is just boredom.

ELE08 wrote...

[...]
I'm pretty sure the Mattock is just bugged out the box at least with adrenaline rush. It's what I used for my insanity playthrough and it was cake.

I think nodoby (from BW) denied or confirmed if it is a bug or a feature but yes, all weapons have a slower RoF under AR. Not the Mattock. You can just keep tapping the mouse like a maniac and it will respond like you were outside of AR

jlb524 wrote...

[...]

I don't know...those stats are a bit shady for one.   That '80%' percent could mean tons of things:

1)  80% of all Shepards created were male.
2)  80% of all Shepards that finished the game were male.
3)  80% of gamers uploading data created at least one male.
4)  80% of gamers uploading data finished the game with at least one male.

Notice three and four say nothing about how many people created or finished the game with a female.

I would even fit under three, as I've created a male that didn't get very far, and I don't consider myself to be a MaleShep player/fan at all.

What we can say is that the FemShep fanbase on the BSN is quite large and we seem to be the most exuberant fans.

I just ignore those "statistics". I'm on the infamous 80% tbh. But doesn't mean much. My dudeShep playthrough only represents the 1% of my time playing this game.

Here on BSN, we're not a just a 20% I think. But outside, we don't have much to go on.
Of my friends in RL, only 2 played the game once or twice, sheploo soldier...
The problem is, that aside from DCL, for BW they're just as good customers as I am. How many casual players are there, and how many people actually bought DLC ? That doesn't look promising...

Modifié par jwalker, 17 février 2011 - 07:37 .

[TheMarshal]

Akari Tenshi wrote...

I don't really get this idea of scaring people off the game by putting a female Shepard on the box. If the people they want to sell the game to weren't interested in the first two games, even with all the maleshep advertising, then why are they going to be interested in the third game?

On the other hand, someone who has played either or both of the first two games is going to be aware that you can play as a female Shepard, (you would hope) even if they've chosen not to. If that person is interested in ME3, they're going to buy the game regardless of who's on the box.

The easy thing for them to do is either don't put Shepard, male or female on the box, or make the cover reversible. To bury your head in the sand and pretend femshep doesn't exist for fear of scaring away people who aren't interested in your product doesn't make sense to me.

The cover art is the first line of marketing for most of these games, and it gives the potential buyer their first impression.  I, for example, was not impressed with either game's cover art, since both featured Sheploo, and I figured it was another generic space-themed shooter (FPS or TPS) starring yet another generic male BAMF protagonist.  I don't know whether having FemShep on the cover would have changed my mind about the game, as I tend to avoid 'shooters' in general, but at least knowing that I could create a female protagonist actually got me playing the game.

Given how I feel about ManShep being on the cover, it's not difficult to imagine that there are people out there who would shy away from the game because a female was on the cover.  Particularly if she's not hyper-sexualized (Bayonetta, Lara Croft, etc.).

I think you're right that the best thing they could have done would be to not include an image of Shepard on the cover art.  The ME1 Collector's Edition cover art was fantastic.

[JamieCOTC]

The dude on the cover of ME1 actually turned me off quite a bit and I didn't buy the game for almost two years. I've got the ME2 collectors edition, so I don't have to look at whatshisname.

Marketing, such as it is, depends of stereotypes or worse, generic preconceptions. Sheploo is a VERY generic looking white male and any variation in that tone would dissuade potential core customers. Had femShep graced the cover, she would have been over sexualized ala Miranda or worse, Laura Croft. I hate to say it, but I truly believe the success of femShep as an iconic female action hero equal to her male counterpart and w/out the the sexploitation aspect is nothing more than a happy accident. In fact I think it was BW's own lack of interest that gave rise to femShep's success and I have my doubts that BW could have done a better job had they even tried. I guess what I am saying is that sometimes the stars just align in the right position. Such is the case of femShep.

Modifié par JamieCOTC, 17 février 2011 - 08:25 .

[Sentox6]

JamieCOTC wrote...
The dude on the cover of ME1 actually turned me off quite a bit and I didn't buy the game for almost two years. I've got the ME2 collectors edition, so I don't have to look at whatshisname.

They still had to emblazon Sheploo on the steelbook itself, though. Oh well.

I hate to say it, but I truly believe the success of femShep as an iconic female action hero equal to her male counterpart and w/out the the sexploitation aspect is nothing more than a happy accident. In fact I think it was BW's own lack of interest that gave rise to femShep's success

You wouldn't be the first to think that way.

There's also another good article over at Destructoid for anyone who hasn't read it before.

Modifié par Sentox6, 17 février 2011 - 08:43 .

[Fraevar]

JamieCOTC wrote...

The dude on the cover of ME1 actually turned me off quite a bit and I didn't buy the game for almost two years. I've got the ME2 collectors edition, so I don't have to look at whatshisname.

Marketing, such as it is, depends of stereotypes or worse, generic preconceptions. Sheploo is a VERY generic looking white male and any variation in that tone would dissuade potential core customers. Had femShep graced the cover, she would have been over sexualized ala Miranda or worse, Laura Croft. I hate to say it, but I truly believe the success of femShep as an iconic female action hero equal to her male counterpart and w/out the the sexploitation aspect is nothing more than a happy accident. In fact I think it was BW's own lack of interest that gave rise to femShep's success and I have my doubts that BW could have done a better job had they even tried. I guess what I am saying is that sometimes the stars just align in the right position. Such is the case of femShep.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who felt that way back in the day. I didn't even pre-order ME1 until around one month before release when IGN put up a video of femShep. I loved the voice and after a bit of VA spotting found out it was Jennifer Hale - loved her in KotOR so at that point the game was a sale.

Sadly, I think you're right about her being overly sexualized, had she been the cover girl. BioWare seems to be of the view that part of the reason Jade Empire did not sell well was because it had one of the female protagonists front and center on the cover. Of course, Bastila was also featured prominently on the cover for KotOR, and the game sold extremely well, in spite of her not being overly sexualized either. I think Sheploo stems from the same mentality as much of the ME2 writing does - lowest common denominator to reach the percieved widest audience. The average shooter Joe likes their generic white male heroes and they like said heroes to never stop and have any kind of issues of their own to deal with.

In ME1 they got Sheploo, but the character of Shepard did have moments
where they were down and out, where no amount of shooting or "badassery"
was going to get the story progressing any further. Case in point the
locker-room scene where Shepard is literally sidelined and need the
romantic interest to get back up emotionally and Anderson's intervention
to get back up in terms of the mission. It's a great scene that does
wonders for the characterisation of Shepard as a person, not an
archetype and it's exactly the kind of scenes that BioWare's percieved
mass-market audience cannot abide.

ME2 sadly took this even further, turning Shepard into every bit the generic action hero that Sheploo's visual design and their "badass" marketing portrayal suggested he would be. As you say, much of the uniqueness of femShep is that simply having a non-sexualized female hero speak the lines changes the underlying nature, and the fact that Hale is just such a good actor that she makes it seem like there's actually a person behind the lines, regardless of however horribly clichéd some of them might be.

Thus we miss out on both narrative development but also the chance for BioWare to really cause change and diversity in the games industry. Their marketing department is trying tooth and nail to make their games look like all the other "big sellers" and it sadly look like the actual designers are following suit.

[Sentox6]

Delerius_Jedi wrote...
ME2 sadly took this even further, turning Shepard into every bit the generic action hero that Sheploo's visual design and their "badass" marketing portrayal suggested he would be.

There is a definite shift in focus between the two games, sometimes subtle and sometimes quite blatant, in terms of what makes Shepard important.

Mass Effect 1 gave me the sense that Shepard bought courage and leadership to the table; she was in the right place at the right time to stumble across some key knowledge that set her on the path of combating the Reapers. She wasn't the only one in the galaxy who could do it, but she ended up in the position of being the only one who would.

Mass Effect 2 starts to frame Shepard as the only person who's enough of a BADASS MOFO ASS KICKER to take on the Reapers, and I find that unfortunate. I'd like to move away from the Master Chief archetype, not towards it.

Modifié par Sentox6, 17 février 2011 - 08:53 .

[NM7]

TheMarshal wrote...

The cover art is the first line of marketing for most of these games, and it gives the potential buyer their first impression.  I, for example, was not impressed with either game's cover art, since both featured Sheploo, and I figured it was another generic space-themed shooter (FPS or TPS) starring yet another generic male BAMF protagonist.  I don't know whether having FemShep on the cover would have changed my mind about the game, as I tend to avoid 'shooters' in general, but at least knowing that I could create a female protagonist actually got me playing the game.

Given how I feel about ManShep being on the cover, it's not difficult to imagine that there are people out there who would shy away from the game because a female was on the cover.  Particularly if she's not hyper-sexualized (Bayonetta, Lara Croft, etc.).

I think you're right that the best thing they could have done would be to not include an image of Shepard on the cover art.  The ME1 Collector's Edition cover art was fantastic.

I agree the cover art is something that can get you extra sales, but if all the marketing so far using male Shepard hasn't sold the game to people, then putting femshep on the cover at this point as well isn't going to scare away people who aren't interested. After all trying to sell an RPG to the Call of Duty crowd is like trying to sell ballet tickets to people at a rock concert.

Also have to agree with what Jamie said. Femshep was just a happy accident through lack of interest by the very people who created her. Swings and roundabouts I guess. *shrug*

[Fraevar]

Sentox6 wrote...

Mass Effect 2 starts to frame Shepard as the only person who's enough of a BADASS MOFO ASS KICKER to take on the Reapers, and I find that unfortunate. I'd like to move away from the Master Chief archetype, not towards it.

Well said. There's so many of these "badass mofo" games that I avoid like the plague because I cannot abide the characters. To see Shepard warped into this, really rubs me the wrong way. Again, bless Jen Hale and her talent - she's the only thing holding back the tide of mediocrity.

[Tup3x]

JamieCOTC wrote...

The dude on the cover of ME1 actually turned me off quite a bit and I didn't buy the game for almost two years. I've got the ME2 collectors edition, so I don't have to look at whatshisname.

Marketing, such as it is, depends of stereotypes or worse, generic preconceptions. Sheploo is a VERY generic looking white male and any variation in that tone would dissuade potential core customers. Had femShep graced the cover, she would have been over sexualized ala Miranda or worse, Laura Croft. I hate to say it, but I truly believe the success of femShep as an iconic female action hero equal to her male counterpart and w/out the the sexploitation aspect is nothing more than a happy accident. In fact I think it was BW's own lack of interest that gave rise to femShep's success and I have my doubts that BW could have done a better job had they even tried. I guess what I am saying is that sometimes the stars just align in the right position. Such is the case of femShep.

I much prefer Sheploo over some big boobed ****. It doesn't always has to be like that, though.

[TheMarshal]

You guys have a point. As I was writing my previous post, I started thinking about what could have been on the cover art/marketing material that would have pushed me to buy the game, and the truth is, had they featured FemShep I don't know that I would have been any more interested in the game. FemShep truly is just one of those happy accidents. Too bad that a big portion of the population will never know her, but I guess that's the way things go.



@Tup - I liked Faith as a character, particularly her design, though I personally feel that her marketing art was a little over the top. She's always got that "tired and horny" face that makes my eyes roll.

[ADLegend21]

I beleive it was either ELE08 or Aislinn Trista that said it would be a great Idea to jsut have the N7 logo on the cover of mass effects 1&2 so that we could've avoided having a default image thrown at us and for people to want to change it (oddly enough Jacob makes a subtle joke about this when he talks about what the Alliance did to shepard in his/her absence "a composite image") and I'm all for this. You can't please everyone though.

[Ophelia Rivets]

I agree with what has been said before, particularly with Sentox6, I felt the whole mood of ME2 was a step down from it's predecessor (I've noticed this more since recently re-playing ME). Here's hoping Bioware up the ante on the story and characterisation of Shep in ME3.

@Tup3xi Faith has always been a favourite female character of mine, makes me wish that Mirror's Edge's cutscenes weren't animated. This lady, though, is a little better in my books:

http://pics.livejour...as/pic/00003wae

EDIT: @ADLegend21 That's part of the reason I forked over an extra €10 for the Collector's Edition.

Modifié par Ophelia Rivets, 17 février 2011 - 10:42 .

[Kary Tyrrell]

ADLegend21 wrote...

I beleive it was either ELE08 or Aislinn Trista that said it would be a great Idea to jsut have the N7 logo on the cover of mass effects 1&2 so that we could've avoided having a default image thrown at us and for people to want to change it (oddly enough Jacob makes a subtle joke about this when he talks about what the Alliance did to shepard in his/her absence "a composite image") and I'm all for this. You can't please everyone though.

After all the N7 Logo is the most Iconic thing of the series, hope they do something like this with ME3 :innocent:

[Cyberstrike nTo]

In all my 20+ complete playthroughs in both Mass Effect games I only played a male Shepard and it was pure hell all 3 times, The rest were femShepards (and one time did I complete Dragon Age: Origins as a male character).

[Sentox6]

Personally, I'd like to see more opportunities for reflection, as others have already mentioned. I'm not sure who it was who bought this up in the thread (sorry for stealing your point), but the lone "I'm frustrated" line you can say to Liara in LotSB is one of the best pieces of dialogue in the game. It's reminiscent, in a way, of the scene from ME1 when the Normandy was locked down in the Citadel. You actually get to see Shepard as a human struggling under the weight of everything.

Personally, I see Shepard as just another soldier (bear with me). A good soldier, no doubt, but not superhuman. At the end of the day, she does what she does because she has to. The enormity of facing the threat of galactic extinction head on with precious few people even believing you would probably cause most people to quit outright (and this is what makes her exceptional). A few moments of weakness or despair to reflect this wouldn't go amiss.

Unfortunately, it seems like the game's writers have succumbed to the temptation of hyping up Shepard's ability. Cerberus spends four billion credits bringing her back to life because she's just that awesome. No one else can possibly do what she does, after all. In the process, the character becomes subservient to the player, who supposedly just wants to feel like a Big Guddamed Hero™ and kick ass.

This is part of why I dislike Sheploo so much. To me, he represents the culmination of that philosophy: an impassive shell there to serve as the player's self-insert Mary Sue fantasy. Honestly, I don't mean that to insult people who like playing as him. It's just not what I'm looking for.

Modifié par Sentox6, 17 février 2011 - 11:08 .

[TheMarshal]

Sentox6 wrote...

Personally, I'd like to see more opportunities for reflection, as others have already mentioned. I'm not sure who it was who bought this up in the thread (sorry for stealing your point), but the lone "I'm frustrated" line you can say to Liara in LotSB is one of the best pieces of dialogue in the game. It's reminiscent, in a way, of the scene from ME1 when the Normandy was locked down in the Citadel. You actually get to see Shepard as a human struggling under the weight of everything.

Personally, I see Shepard as just another soldier, to a degree. A good soldier, no doubt, but not superhuman. At the end of the day, she does what she does because she has to. The enormity of facing the threat of galactic extinction head on with precious few people even believing you would probably cause most people to quit outright (and this is what makes her exceptional). A few moments of weakness or despair to reflect this wouldn't go amiss.

Unfortunately, it seems like the game's writers have succumbed to the temptation of hyping up Shepard's ability. Cerberus spends four billion credits bringing her back to life because she's just that awesome. No one else can possibly do what she does, after all. In the process, the character becomes subservient to the player, who supposedly just wants to feel like a Big Guddamed Hero™ and kick ass.

This is part of why I dislike Sheploo so much. To me, he represents the culmination of that philosophy: an impassive shell there to serve as the player's self-insert Mary Sue fantasy. Honestly, I don't mean that to insult people who like playing as him. It's just not what I'm looking for.

If I could, I would high-five this entire post.

You're absolutely right about the "I'm frustrated" line in LotSB.  As if the Reapers weren't enough of a threat, nobody seems to believe Shepard at all, leaving her on her own except for her ragtag crew.  I usually choose that option, although in my last pt I wound up saying that I felt good 'cause I had just defeated the collectors and told off TIM.  :innocent:

[Sable Phoenix]

I don't have much to add, I just have to say, Jaime and Sentox, you are both just hitting everything right on the head with every point you've made on this page.  I couldn't agree with either of you more, you're voicing my thoughts better than I could.

I've said before, I'm almost glad that femShep hasn't gotten any love from BioWare, just because of the results we see on this thread. Kyrie, Noah, Teagan, all the rest, it's doubtful they would have existed in the form they do if there had been, say, a LadyHawke version of femShep, an official version with her own model and not just something generic patched together in the standard character creation screen (outside a few tiny, almost imperceptible changes, like the shade of her hair color and the tilt of the corners of her mouth).

Modifié par Sable Phoenix, 17 février 2011 - 11:28 .

[Hedera]

Wow. So much win on this page. Thank you all.

[Sable Phoenix]

Don't thank us!

Thank femShep!


"What?  What'd I do?"

[Sentox6]

cgrimm54 wrote...

Wow. So much win on this page. Thank you all.

Well, the next page will be #1000, which demands a gallery of FemSheps with badly photoshopped party hats (yes, ELE08, I demand you photoshop badly). Better to get the indepth discussion done now.

Modifié par Sentox6, 17 février 2011 - 11:48 .

[Hedera]

Sentox6 wrote...

cgrimm54 wrote...

Wow. So much win on this page. Thank you all.

Well, the next page will be #1000, which demands a gallery of FemShep with badly photoshopped party hats (yes, ELE08, I demand you photoshop badly). Better to get the indepth discussion done now.

NOOOOOO you must not speak of that which I must not mention for fear of the moderators have a femshep but never again do you undertstand

That said, FemShep empowers me.  And I am no woman.  Let it be said.

Modifié par cgrimm54, 17 février 2011 - 11:49 .