301 réponses à ce sujet

[Quinnzel]

asaiasai wrote...

The reason i chose to use Allistair as an example is not to be considered a hypocrit as i usually have quite a bit of fun with deciding which dragon i shall feed Allistair to, Anora or the Archdemon.  It does raise a point that i am making though, the abrupt cannonization of certain story elements in the attempt by the developers to let themselves off the hook regarding the previous warden and thier decisions. I think we should stop arguing why one story line should be cannonized and take the developers to task to base the world of DA2 on the decisions of the warden that is imported. This way everybody gets what makes them happy, this also creates, depending on how many different wardens you have (19 and counting for me) a serious amout or replay value.

Asai

Heh, I usually feed him to Anora just to annoy him, I like to see him suffer.

[MKDAWUSS]

Anarya wrote...

Sure except that you can ask her "why not Riordan?" and she says it needs to be someone freshly infected with the taint for the ritual to work. She actually can have the child without the ritual but only if you have had sex with her as a male warden at least once during the game.

It was code word for "he's not her type"

[joriandrake]

hero/Alister kills Loghain, Alister would no way without persuation have sex with Morrigan, Alister slays demon and dies, no way to have the child if the hero didn't want that option neither, plus Morrigan either fought by your side or was already gone by that time

[Thiefy]

hm i wanted to post something relevant but asai basically said everything needed to be said, and probably much more eloquently thant i would've said it

[jpdipity]

AlexXIV wrote...

I keep seeing people talking about the Dark Ritual (DR) being canon. Nobody said that, and there is no reasoning it has to be. Only people who are obsessed with the god-child and want it to play a major role in Dragon Age. Let's say Morrigan gets pregnant eventually, it would still be a quite powerful being. After all Morrigan is Flemeth's daughter, and the father won't be a farmer from next door either. Morrigan is only attracted to strong males as far as I know.

So what would the soul of an old god add to the child? Power? There is more than one way to gain power. The Warden was quite powerful as well at the end of DA:A. And even without looking for ways to increase it, he simply grew with the challenges. Maybe god-childs don't age. But then again, how likely is it that Morrigan's offspring is going to die of old age? More likely it will be a violent death of some sort.

So to sum it up, I don't think the soul of an old god is necessary to continue the story. And that said, it is not necessary that it becomes canon.

I agree with you on this. 

The DR and a god-baby does not need to be canon.  Morrigan's child will simply have different backgrounds for those who did the DR, those who did not sleep with Morrigan at all & those that impregnanted Morrigan before the DR.  For those that did the DR, it's a god-baby.  For those that did not, it is Morrigan's very powerful child whose power can be explained any number of other ways.

I don't believe the DR will be canon - it doesn't need to be.

[Who is that Masked Man]

asaiasai wrote...

All that stuff asaiasai wrote.

I was going to argue with you, starting by saying that I can't see how you can claim to have such a profound understanding of Morrigan and her motivations when you hate her character and (as you said) never take her with you.

But then I looked back and saw you come into this thread announcing it's your personal mission to troll Morrigan fans. After that, what the heck is the point of even reading anything you have to say?

So, in conclusion: Whatever, man. Haters gonna hate.

[deusdoamor]

the warden comes back in awakening alive even if you no perfomed the ritual with morrigan,so i think the child will existi any choice you make.

[Svest]

Ryzaki wrote...

...Other than the giant explosion and the fact that your warden is six feet under? Riordan tells you the reason you kick the bucket is because you destroy its soul. If its soul isn't destoryed you don't kick the bucket. Its not complicated.

Trying to make all these plotholes so Morrigan gets her way just serves to make her more of a damn Sue than she already is.

Like I said, it would take the writers 5 minutes to figure out a way for Morrigan to still get the Old God's soul and have the Warden (or whoever killed the Archdemon) still die. 

I'm perfectly happy if the writers decide not to go on about the DR, in my preferred playthrough my Warden turned her down and killed the Archdemon himself.  All I'm saying is its incredibly stupid to claim something is impossible when we are talking about a MAGIC ritual.  If the writers want it to happen it will.  Simple as that.

[Ryzaki]

Svest wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

...Other than the giant explosion and the fact that your warden is six feet under? Riordan tells you the reason you kick the bucket is because you destroy its soul. If its soul isn't destoryed you don't kick the bucket. Its not complicated.

Trying to make all these plotholes so Morrigan gets her way just serves to make her more of a damn Sue than she already is.

Like I said, it would take the writers 5 minutes to figure out a way for Morrigan to still get the Old God's soul and have the Warden (or whoever killed the Archdemon) still die. 

I'm perfectly happy if the writers decide not to go on about the DR, in my preferred playthrough my Warden turned her down and killed the Archdemon himself.  All I'm saying is its incredibly stupid to claim something is impossible when we are talking about a MAGIC ritual.  If the writers want it to happen it will.  Simple as that.

It would not because they close every other possibility in the First game. It has to be done that night. That is exactly what Morrigan says. If she had found any other way the warden who dealt the final blow would *not* be six feet under. Its incredibly stupid to try to argue that "Well its MAGIC it can do anything!" Magic has its limits like everything else. The ritual had certain limits imposed on it. Its a DARK ritual. You don't pull things like that out of a hat. Besides if there was any other way Morrigan probably wouldn't have joined the Warden in the first place she wouldn't have had to. Do the dialogue again. She tells you "she'll do as she must." however given the fact that she only has 3 days to do what she has to do and you still end up six feet under I expect she gave up on the god baby for the time being and will try to get another archedemon soul. If she gets the child and the PC or whoever slew the AD is dead its a a**pull and retcon. (A badly done retcon at that) They'd be better of just canolizing the DR.

Her "raping" the PC not only is disgusting but is ludrcrious as well. (Granted the fact that you can't attack her after she reveals her little plot makes no sense either but apparently she has plot shield. <_< ) 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 20 juillet 2010 - 06:04 .

[Legbiter]

Morrigan did things to our male wardens while we were unconscious after Ostagar and magically preserved the baby sauce.

[AlexXIV]

Well Morrigan doesn't necessarily need the soul of the Archdemon the Warden slays. It would be easier, but she could also look for the last remaining Archdemon and take its soul. I think the whole Blight business is comming to and end in the Dragon Age anyway, meaning they won't just wait for the next Blight, but someone is going to find the remaining Archdemon anyway. If it is not Flemeth or Hawke or even the Grey Warden then maybe Morrigan or someone else.

[Svest]

Ryzaki wrote...

It would not because they close every other possibility in the First game. It has to be done that night. That is exactly what Morrigan says. If she had found any other way the warden who dealt the final blow would *not* be six feet under. Its incredibly stupid to try to argue that "Well its MAGIC it can do anything!" Magic has its limits like everything else. The ritual had certain limits imposed on it. Its a DARK ritual. You don't pull things like that out of a hat. Besides if there was any other way Morrigan probably wouldn't have joined the Warden in the first place she wouldn't have had to. Do the dialogue again. She tells you "she'll do as she must." however given the fact that she only has 3 days to do what she has to do and you still end up six feet under I expect she gave up on the god baby for the time being and will try to get another archedemon soul. If she gets the child and the PC or whoever slew the AD is dead its a a**pull and retcon. (A badly done retcon at that) They'd be better of just canolizing the DR.

Her "raping" the PC not only is disgusting but is ludrcrious as well. (Granted the fact that you can't attack her after she reveals her little plot makes no sense either but apparently she has plot shield. <_< ) 

Again, that could be explained in a million different ways.  There could be an alternate ritual that she could perform, but it required her to do something she really didn't want to do.  Maybe it called for a "deal with the devil" (or a fade demon) she didn't want to make.  If you are so worried about how the Warden is "six feet under" maybe it was blood magic and used the Warden's life to power the spell.  She says it has to be done that night?  Exactly, so she has time to enact "Plan B" in case you turn her down.  Saying "she'll do as she must" could very easily mean she has a backup plan and doesn't want to use it, but will if left with no other option.  None of these things are contradict anything we've seen so far in the lore.  In fact, deals with demons and blood magic seem rather common.  The writers have already said what the limits on magic in Thedas are; no teleportation, no resurrection, and no physical entry into the fade.  That's it, and this would not break any of those rules.

It took me about 5 minutes to think of a possible explanation.  I'm certainly not a writer.  Give someone with some actual creative talent 5 minutes and they could easily come up with a much better one.  I really don't care if they do it or not, but claiming its not possible is just plain stupid and shows a clear lack of imagination (as is saying it must happen as well).  Just because you don't like the idea doesn't mean it can't happen or would be some terrible retcon.

Modifié par Svest, 20 juillet 2010 - 06:38 .

[Ryzaki]

Svest wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

It would not because they close every other possibility in the First game. It has to be done that night. That is exactly what Morrigan says. If she had found any other way the warden who dealt the final blow would *not* be six feet under. Its incredibly stupid to try to argue that "Well its MAGIC it can do anything!" Magic has its limits like everything else. The ritual had certain limits imposed on it. Its a DARK ritual. You don't pull things like that out of a hat. Besides if there was any other way Morrigan probably wouldn't have joined the Warden in the first place she wouldn't have had to. Do the dialogue again. She tells you "she'll do as she must." however given the fact that she only has 3 days to do what she has to do and you still end up six feet under I expect she gave up on the god baby for the time being and will try to get another archedemon soul. If she gets the child and the PC or whoever slew the AD is dead its a a**pull and retcon. (A badly done retcon at that) They'd be better of just canolizing the DR.

Her "raping" the PC not only is disgusting but is ludrcrious as well. (Granted the fact that you can't attack her after she reveals her little plot makes no sense either but apparently she has plot shield. <_< ) 

Again, that could be explained in a million different ways.  There could be an alternate ritual that she could perform, but it required her to do something she really didn't want to do.  Maybe it called for a "deal with the devil" (or a fade demon) she didn't want to make.  If you are so worried about how the Warden is "six feet under" maybe it was blood magic and used the Warden's life to power the spell.  She says it has to be done that night?  Exactly, so she has time to enact "Plan B" in case you turn her down.  Saying "she'll do as she must" could very easily mean she has a backup plan and doesn't want to use it, but will if left with no other option.  None of these things are contradict anything we've seen so far in the lore.  In fact, deals with demons and blood magic seem rather common.  The writers have already said what the limits on magic in Thedas are; no teleportation, no resurrection, and no physical entry into the fade.  That's it, and this would not break any of those rules.

It took me about 5 minutes to think of a possible explanation.  I'm certainly not a writer.  Give someone with some actual creative talent 5 minutes and they could easily come up with a much better one.  I really don't care if they do it or not, but claiming its not possible is just plain stupid and shows a clear lack of imagination (as is saying it must happen as well).  Just because you don't like the idea doesn't mean it can't happen or would be some terrible retcon.

On that note. Why would a fade demon have any control over an old god's soul? She needs the TAINT. Demons aren't tainted. So how does that explain anything?  And why would said demon have *any* control over a much more powerful's being soul.

That explains nothing. I'd be far more inclined to believe Flemeth able to do something like that. (Not to mention deals with demons doesn't seem like something Morrigan would ever do because of how often they blow up in your face).

The archedemon's soul needs something to attract it (according to the ritual anyways because if not it jumps to the Warden. The warden dies through the act of two souls destroying each other.) So how exactly does the warden die if there's no two souls? The warden's death destroys the Arcdemon's soul so unless "He wasn't really dead!" there's no more archedemon soul so it doesn't matter what Morrigan does.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 20 juillet 2010 - 06:52 .

[Svest]

Ryzaki wrote...

On that note. Why would a fade demon have any control over an old god's soul? She needs the TAINT. Demons aren't tatined. So how does that explain anything?  And why would said demon have *any* control over a much more powerful's being soul.

That explains nothing.

Who says the demon has power over the old god's soul on its own?  We're talking about the combined power of a demon and very powerful mage being charged by the sacrifice of a person's life force.  Plus the old god is likely in a fairly weakened state.  You say she needs the taint, her sacrifice has the taint.  It draws the old god's soul into the warden's body, but instead of allowing the 2 souls to destroy each other the magic simply uses the warden's life force to channel the old god's soul wherever Morrigan wants it to go.

Or more simpy put its magic.  Like I said, the writers have already said what the limits of magic are and this is not one of them.  If you want write your own story where you have control over what can and can't happen, then do so.  That doesn't change that in Thedas things like this CAN happen.  Does it mean they will?  No.  But saying its impossible is stupid.

Edit to respond to your edit:

I'd be far more inclined to believe Flemeth able to do something like
that. (Not to mention deals with demons doesn't seem like something
Morrigan would ever do because of how often they blow up in your face).

The
archedemon's soul needs something to attract it (according to the
ritual anyways because if not it jumps to the Warden. The warden dies
through the act of two souls destroying each other.) So how exactly does
the warden die if there's no two souls? The warden's death destroys the
Arcdemon's soul so unless "He wasn't really dead!" there's no more
archedemon soul so it doesn't matter what Morrigan does.

 
You are right in that Morrigan would not want to do it because she knows how deals with demons can go wrong, which is exactly why its not "Plan A" and she only uses it as a last resort. 

The first part of this post explained how she could have used the warden's taint to attract the old god's soul.

Modifié par Svest, 20 juillet 2010 - 07:04 .

[Ryzaki]

Svest wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

On that note. Why would a fade demon have any control over an old god's soul? She needs the TAINT. Demons aren't tatined. So how does that explain anything?  And why would said demon have *any* control over a much more powerful's being soul.

That explains nothing.

Who says the demon has power over the old god's soul on its own?  We're talking about the combined power of a demon and very powerful mage being charged by the sacrifice of a person's life force.  Plus the old god is likely in a fairly weakened state.  You say she needs the taint, her sacrifice has the taint.  It draws the old god's soul into the warden's body, but instead of allowing the 2 souls to destroy each other the magic simply uses the warden's life force to channel the old god's soul wherever Morrigan wants it to go.

Or more simpy put its magic.  Like I said, the writers have already said what the limits of magic are and this is not one of them.  If you want write your own story where you have control over what can and can't happen, then do so.  That doesn't change that in Thedas things like this CAN happen.  Does it mean they will?  No.  But saying its impossible is stupid.

...Use the warden's life force from ra knows how many miles away not knowing what he's currently doing? 

Not to mention she would have to have some part of his lifeforce I assume to carry this out. (Unless you can ccast blood magic without using the person blood now of course) . So she's carrying the warden's tainted blood around earlier? (Because I doubt he'd let her near him after refusing the deal). ...that's....weird.

And then instead of going into the nearest tainted lifeform this powerful uber special magic draws it away from every tainted creature (and there's a lot) and drags it to Morrigan? Really?  This would only be the slightest bit believeable to me if she ended up having to corrupt herself. The AD bypassing all those potential bodies for one that has powerful magic in it I can understand.

The second the archedemon and warden meet they're BOTH dead. There would be no lifeforce to use.

That's really...stretching it.

How is saying its impossible stupid when you never see anyone doing such powerful useful magic? Heck I'd believe Flemeth capable of such a thing easily but...well she's Flemeth. Granted its not impossible...but its so highly implausible to that all happening at the exact right time is ludcrious. There's a reason Morrigan is so insistant on the ritual being done right away. I always assumed she ran away to Orlais to gain what she wanted power and prestige while the GB was one way of achieving that by no means is it the only one.

Though I guess it would be possible. Highly unlikly but possible. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 20 juillet 2010 - 07:13 .

[Bryy_Miller]

Wonderllama4 wrote...

She's Morrigan. She probably had sex with you in your sleep.

My first reaction to seeing this thread title: "she sleeps around".

[Lintanis]

asaiasai wrote...

I am sorry ...... no i am not. All of the drivel being spewed by Morrigan fans is just plain assinine. I have no problems with YOUR story revolving around some silly convoluted attempt to justify why Morrigan has a god baby just allow me the ability to distance myself from it according the the decisions i made as a warden. I have played the game 19 times and done the DR in only 2 plays, to toss my choices out for the convience and satisfaction of the fanboys/girls by making the DR cannon trivializes the choices the rest of my wardens made, trivializes my game preferences. I will say that i do not want to play your game as i am sure you do not want to play mine. The only way to satisfy these demands is to make it so that the individual wardens choices are cannonized. Is this more difficult sure, but i do not care how difficult it is to make this so this way everyone gets what they want .

You can claim all you want that Morrigan is an integral part of the story but the truth remains solidily against that in that Morrigan is as relevant to the game as the player chooses her to be. I dump Morrigan at Lotharin everytime and the game still continues just fine actually i find it to be a more enjoyable experience when the swamp witch has been booted from the party early. The only cannon character in the game is Allistair and even then the player gets to decide his fate, which for the most part in my games IS NOT A HAPPY ENDING for him.

You can dream, plead cajole, with the developers for your desired continuation of the irrelevant Morrigan story, just as i will always be around to offer a counter point to the fan love with some anti fan rhetoric. It is my self appointed mission to relegate Morrigan to obscurity. I do not mind if your game has Morrigan to the hilt, just so long as in my game i can bury my blade to the hilt in Morrigan's abdomen relegating her to as much obscurity as you can to preeminence, all will be right as rain.

Asai

[Svest]

Ryzaki wrote...
...Use the warden's life force from ra knows how many miles away not knowing what he's currently doing? 

And then instead of going into the nearest tainted lifeform this powerful uber special magic draws it away from every tainted creature (and there's a lot) and drags it to Morrigan? Really? 

The second the archedemon and warden meet they're BOTH dead. There would be no lifeforce to use.

That's really...stretching it.

How is saying its impossible stupid when you never see anyone doing such powerful useful magic? Heck I'd believe Flemeth capable of such a thing easily but...well she's Flemeth. Granted its not impossible...but its so highly implausible to that all happening at the exact right time is ludcrious.

Who says she's far away?  Nobody knows where she is.  You're just making assumptions.

Again, who says the sould destroy each other instantaneously?  Who says there's no time for magic to effect them?  Another assumption you are making with no basis in lore.

What makes this magic so much more powerful than raising an army of undead, or making yourself virtually immortal by cursing a spirit, or creating an army of golems?  All these things are examples of very powerful magic in the game.  Why is capturing a soul so different from them?

You say its "stretching it."  Tell me exactly what about ANY magic isn't "stretching it."  That's the whole point of magic, it makes the impossible possible, its basically the definition of the word.

[Ryzaki]

Svest wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
...Use the warden's life force from ra knows how many miles away not knowing what he's currently doing? 

And then instead of going into the nearest tainted lifeform this powerful uber special magic draws it away from every tainted creature (and there's a lot) and drags it to Morrigan? Really? 

The second the archedemon and warden meet they're BOTH dead. There would be no lifeforce to use.

That's really...stretching it.

How is saying its impossible stupid when you never see anyone doing such powerful useful magic? Heck I'd believe Flemeth capable of such a thing easily but...well she's Flemeth. Granted its not impossible...but its so highly implausible to that all happening at the exact right time is ludcrious.

Who says she's far away?  Nobody knows where she is.  You're just making assumptions.

Again, who says the sould destroy each other instantaneously?  Who says there's no time for magic to effect them?  Another assumption you are making with no basis in lore.

What makes this magic so much more powerful than raising an army of undead, or making yourself virtually immortal by cursing a spirit, or creating an army of golems?  All these things are examples of very powerful magic in the game.  Why is capturing a soul so different from them?

You say its "stretching it."  Tell me exactly what about ANY magic isn't "stretching it."  That's the whole point of magic, it makes the impossible possible, its basically the definition of the word.

Like I said. Its highly unlikely but possible. I'm not going to keep going in circles. As far as I'm concerned the Warden being dead = archedemon's soul is destroyed. So if I see OGB I better see the warden mysteriously wake up.

Also if there was to be a chain reaction what the warden's soul is destroyed first and then what a few moments later the archedemon's soul is destroyed? The whole two souls can't co-exist lends to the theroy that the ADS would just lead to the archedemon posessing one of the thousands if not tens of thousands darkspawn nearby. . I'm not going to keep saying this. The warden being dead to me is pretty much the end of it. Maybe if the pull out the "He wasn't really dead!" card will I buy it. (That said they had a funeral. That doesn't usually happen in he wasn't really dead scenarios).

Not to mention. How does she get pregnant? She screws the demon that helps her? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 20 juillet 2010 - 07:33 .

[Svest]

Ryzaki wrote...

Like I said. Its highly unlikely but possible. I'm not going to keep going in circles. As far as I'm concerned the Warden being dead = archedemon's soul is destroyed. So if I see OGB I better see the warden mysteriously wake up.

Also if there was to be a chain reaction what the warden's soul is destroyed first and then what a few moments later the archedemon's soul is destroyed? The whole two souls can't co-exist lends to the though that they- NVM. I'm not going to keep saying this.

If you want to see the warden mysteriously wake up just load up Awakenings

Seriously though, you are missing my point.  There is no chain reaction, the archdemon's soul does not destroy the warden's.  The magic is what killes the warden, before the 2 souls are able to destroy each other, then the power drawn from the warden's soul/blood/whatever is used to put the old god's soul where morrigan wants it.  However, like I said, I'm not a writer and I only spent 5 minutes thinking this up.  If one of the actual writers did it would be much better and much more plausable.

It doesn't matter though if its highly unlikely, its fiction involving magic, the only thing that matters is if the writers want something to happen.  If they do, then its 100% likely to happen.  If they don't, then its 100% likely not to happen.  Any other probabilities are meaningless. 

Modifié par Svest, 20 juillet 2010 - 07:35 .

[Ryzaki]

Svest wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Like I said. Its highly unlikely but possible. I'm not going to keep going in circles. As far as I'm concerned the Warden being dead = archedemon's soul is destroyed. So if I see OGB I better see the warden mysteriously wake up.

Also if there was to be a chain reaction what the warden's soul is destroyed first and then what a few moments later the archedemon's soul is destroyed? The whole two souls can't co-exist lends to the though that they- NVM. I'm not going to keep saying this.

If you want to see the warden mysteriously wake up just load up Awakenings

Seriously though, you are missing my point.  There is no chain reaction, the archdemon's soul does not destroy the warden's.  The magic is what killes the warden, before the 2 souls are able to destroy each other, then the power drawn from the warden's soul is used to put the old god's soul where morrigan wants it.  However, like I said, I'm not a writer and I only spent 5 minutes thinking this up.  If one of the actual writers did it would be much better and much more plausable.

It doesn't matter though if its highly unlikely, its fiction involving magic, the only thing that matters is if the writers want something to happen.  If they do, then its 100% likely to happen.  If they don't, then its 100% likely not to happen.  Any other probabilities are meaningless. 

Does that not contradict what Riordan said about the taint being the beacon for the AD soul though? 

And I already said it was possible. Just highly unlikely to happen. Highly unlikely =/= impossible. Its highly unlikely you'll survive a fall 35000Ft in the air but its possible.

I'm not missing the point just pointing out that the whole point of the US ending was that the ADs soul was destroyed.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 20 juillet 2010 - 07:37 .

[Svest]

Ryzaki wrote...
Not to mention. How does she get pregnant? She screws the demon that helps her? 

She went down to a pub and hit on some drunk guy.  You don't think Morrigan could find someone willing to have sex with her any time she wanted?

[Ryzaki]

Svest wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Not to mention. How does she get pregnant? She screws the demon that helps her? 

She went down to a pub and hit on some drunk guy.  You don't think Morrigan could find someone willing to have sex with her any time she wanted?

Within a time span of what two days? The blight is going on. She first has to A. LEave the area because where she is all the men are A. Leaving to fight. or B. Fleeing. So there goes you she's near the warden theory.

[Svest]

Ryzaki wrote...
Does that not contradict what Riordan said about the taint being the beacon for the AD soul though? 

And I already said it was possible. Just highly unlikely to happen. Highly unlikely =/= impossible. Its highly unlikely you'll survive a fall 35000Ft in the air but its possible.

I'm not missing the point just pointing out that the whole point of the US ending was that the ADs soul was destroyed.

No it doesn't.  Like I said, the Warden's soul acts as the required beacon to draw the old god's soul in but before they could destroy each other Morrigan's magic steps in and changes the outcome.  It kills the warden and uses the power released there to capture the AD's soul.

I'm just saying the likelyhood is meaningless, all that matters is the writers' intent.

The point of the US ending was that we think the AD's soul is destroyed.  If the writers want to use that soul in the future then it wasn't.  Simple as that.

[R.U.N]

''She went down to a pub and hit on some drunk guy.  You don't think
Morrigan could find someone willing to have sex with her any time she
wanted?''

To bad she always chooses the guys who wouldn't do her..........

Modifié par R.U.N, 20 juillet 2010 - 07:46 .