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Great game but I do have 1 major gripe


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#76
M-zero

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Brentra wrote...

M-zero wrote...

It would only analogous to the gay marriage debate if straight people were forced to be married with gays and are you really comparing your number crunching fetishes with a social civil right issue? Why don't you skip the foreplay and just call me Hitler?


The mentality, though not the magnitude, is quite comparable.  This has absolutely zero impact on you, yet you still feel compelled to try to assert control over everyone else and insist that they comply with your way.


Oh, I see. And I thought I was having a civilized discussion why I think that detailed statistics in role-playing games is a thing of the past. As it turns out to be, I was just unknowingly gay-bashing...


We'll just ignore the fact that the difference between a metaphor and a literal statement is apparenly lost on you.  Still waiting for you to explain how the option to display detailed stats would affect your gameplay.  Let's hear it.

Modifié par M-zero, 10 novembre 2009 - 07:58 .


#77
Dragon Age1103

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wait I'm confused. I've paused the game a million times while casting a spell & floating numbers tell you damage. I mean I agree but its not really hard to figure out from simple observation. Cast it pause, see how much health it takes out on an enemy. I know my spells & enemy weakness so I agree this could be a nice feature added but I don't think it is necessary if you know your enemies & your spells

#78
TheFawz

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Aye, it would be nice to have a more detailed skill info tooltip. Same with all the skills/spells actually. A value, or how the value is calculated in a extra pop in would be nice.

#79
Kiwi9055

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I would also like this extra level of detail.

#80
Avaere

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Completely agree. This stood out to me immediately and has been driving me nuts.

#81
Brentra

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M-zero wrote...
We'll just ignore the fact that the difference between a metaphor and a literal statement is apparenly lost on you.  Still waiting for you to explain how the option to display detailed stats would affect your gameplay.  Let's hear it.


Aside from the fact that implementing and testing such a feature would require a certain expenditure of time that could better be used on more important and interesting projects? How about the fact that if it'll be there, it's be there. If players are presented with an option to know that a fireball hits for 30 damage, and a lightning strike hits for 23 damage, most of them exercise it, whether they like it or not. Which, as I said earlier would ultimately destroy some of the mood and enjoyment of the game for at some of them. Come on, you don't seem to be a newbie. You should know that given a choice between keeping immersion and using every single loophole available, most gamers will choose the latter. It's a part of our "gaming" mentality.

Besides, I'm not the one who should be on the defensive here. I'm still to hear one single good argument why we must see the numerical values of a plate chestpiece in order to be able to compare to a cloth robe. If it were up to me, I'd use random time and damage values for most of spells and force the player to be ready to adapt to the resulting situations. I'm not a big fantasy expert, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't Tolkien who came up with the rule that every single fireball you cast should take exactly 2.75 seconds to charge. I swear, sometimes I think players like you would be much happier playing directly with Excel spreadsheets...

#82
Sceptic83

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Sooo...I want to spend a few words with the ones of you that reject numbers. This is a roleplay game, it's not an interactive film so i assume there are fights. Party fights, with plenty of magic, abilities and so on. In these fights tactic is crucial, choise of spells is crucial, timing also. SO we need to know if a spell last 2 secs or last infinite secs. If we dont need numbers like someone of you said, why do we have to bother about stats?? This is not an fps, this is an rpg, with pause and tactical fights. So we need accurate description (and with this i dont mean we need all the arithmetics, just a good description of what that spell is doing, its lasting, its area, if it's single target, if it's self, approximately the amount of damage). That's it. Simple, clear.

#83
Haexpane

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This is an obvious "missing feature" for WRPG fans. I think the lack of D&D licenses was good in a way that it frees up Bioware to do whatever they want, I'm just surprised at how "dumbed down" the min/maxing is.



Linear skill trees, and how few skills there are in general is a big let down for me.



Baldur's Gate 2 and SoA have a lot more depth and complexity to the combat and character management

#84
Bane

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Brentra wrote...
[...] Besides, I'm not the one who should be on the defensive here. [...]

Quite the contrary.  This thread is about requesting and showing support for more detailed descriptions.  You've stepped into our thread with an opposing view which is the definition of being on the defensive.

#85
technosatyr

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Brentra wrote...

M-zero wrote...
We'll just ignore the fact that the difference between a metaphor and a literal statement is apparenly lost on you.  Still waiting for you to explain how the option to display detailed stats would affect your gameplay.  Let's hear it.


Aside from the fact that implementing and testing such a feature would require a certain expenditure of time that could better be used on more important and interesting projects? How about the fact that if it'll be there, it's be there. If players are presented with an option to know that a fireball hits for 30 damage, and a lightning strike hits for 23 damage, most of them exercise it, whether they like it or not. Which, as I said earlier would ultimately destroy some of the mood and enjoyment of the game for at some of them. Come on, you don't seem to be a newbie. You should know that given a choice between keeping immersion and using every single loophole available, most gamers will choose the latter. It's a part of our "gaming" mentality.

Besides, I'm not the one who should be on the defensive here. I'm still to hear one single good argument why we must see the numerical values of a plate chestpiece in order to be able to compare to a cloth robe. If it were up to me, I'd use random time and damage values for most of spells and force the player to be ready to adapt to the resulting situations. I'm not a big fantasy expert, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't Tolkien who came up with the rule that every single fireball you cast should take exactly 2.75 seconds to charge. I swear, sometimes I think players like you would be much happier playing directly with Excel spreadsheets...


First off:  game balancing requires the development team to sit around and number crunch.  To do that they need feedback tools that record all of the thigns that happen in a battle.  Ergo, the tools probably already exist to record and log feedback in fights, all the team would have to do is make it pretty and accessable.

Second: A character in game should be able to measure the effectiveness of their abilities.  If I, as an elf mage, want to know whether my fireball or lightning bolt is more effective then I can cast them against things and observe the destruction.  Keep in mind I've been doing spellcasting my entire life surrounded by other people who have been doing that their entire lives.  Reason dictates that SOMEONE has quantified these things.

Third: lightning bolt is not a fireball.  Even if the damages were identical the method in which the damage is delivered differs.  Spell descritions already do a fair job of explaining the delivery method (like chain lightning vs fireball) as well as describing secondary effects (like fireball's knockdown).  These differences allow spellcasters to choose the most appropriate spell for a given situation. 

It sounds like you want your character to always cast the spells he enjoys casting most.  That's swell.  My caster, however, is aware that his world is a horrible place full of things that will kill him if he lets his guard down for an instant.  He does not have the luxury of choosing to cast spells which are pretty; he must always choose the most effective spell for the job, or the job will impale him and rip off his head.  He needs to know which spells will be most effective for different tasks.

If he needs to neutralize a lot of enemies immediately he'll cast sleep.  If he needs to neutralize them while dealing damage he'll use blizzard.  But if he has a need to simply do as much damage as possible, he needs to know which spell will provide him with that.

If Bioware intended for us to use only the spells that we "liked" most, while not being concerned with damage, then every spell would have the exact effects that every other spell had.  Bioware wants us to realize that they're all different, with different strenghts and weaknesses.  That being the case we need to know the damage of a spell, otherwise a VERY major stregth/weakness is unavailable.

It appears that you're assuming that just because spell A does less damage than spell B that no one would ever use spell B.  Maybe that's just how you play.  Personally I like to look at all of the advantages and disadvantages between A and B and choose accordingly.

#86
Lacan2

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I agree, more detail would be nice.

#87
Toirin09

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More detail would be nice, even if it was only a log on who hit what and how had he hit. I would like to compare if my backstabbing rogue is dhishing out more damage than the guy wielding a big hammer. If I'm dealing a significant amount less than I am a failure at making this character. I would enjoy knowing I'm a failure before I go through the entire game with a terrible character. It wouldn't take much, they already have the basics in the character profile spot.

#88
Mikey_205

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Showing numbers hardly leads to more metagaming. All that happens if u hide it is you get certain obsessive players working it out and then putting it up on the internet. These people also work out the optimal builds. Next because new players are bambuzzled by the lack of thorough description they look up the numerics and come across the optimal builds. Only now they cant even use independant judgement to a large extent because outside of the optimal build everything is obscured in-game. Less informed decisions are made and more aimless builds and following like sheep.

#89
Haexpane

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Unfortunately it's "combo" focused now. "Freeze then smash!" I already played Bioshock..



I'm loving the game, but disappointed they went the "dumbed down" combat road instead of going back to the D&D style. There are style "checks" and such but IDK, it just seems more shallow and I don't feel like I have as many options. Freeze and smash, paralyze or hex and life drain, I'm early on in the game but I was hoping it wouldn't be so "combo" heavy.



As we saw in Bioshock combos can make the game too easy, or too hard if you don't use the 'right" combo. But if everyone is freezing and smashing and hexing and draining...








#90
Guest_Johohoho.Ehehehe_*

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+1 here.

#91
SheffSteel

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Numbers are a snare and a delusion. They trick you into thinking you know what's going to happen. You will never have enough information to predict the outcome of a single round of combat. Watching, experimenting, observing, and learning to play will always be more productive than studying numbers, performing calculations, and making predictions. The people who have an intuitive grasp of how the game plays are less likely to follow like sheep than those who see a numerical argument and can't see how to refute it.

If you're afraid of experimenting and making mistakes, remember that you can save the game in a new slot and come back to it later if need be - this isn't WoW.

#92
ambrilthemage

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Whether or not you're better off with Rock Armor than chain mail has less to do with how much armor Rock Armor provides than you're assuming.

#93
Guest_Bio-Boy 3000_*

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Ask and ye shall understand teh awesome that is Georg Zoeller.

#94
Brentra

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technosatyr wrote...
First off:  game balancing requires the development team to sit around and number crunch.  To do that they need feedback tools that record all of the thigns that happen in a battle.  Ergo, the tools probably already exist to record and log feedback in fights, all the team would have to do is make it pretty and accessable.

Second: A character in game should be able to measure the effectiveness of their abilities....


First, as a former developer I assure you, no matter how small an adjustment you decide to make in a finished product, it's rarely going to be easy and it's almost never going to be fact. The patch would still have to pass QA and it still would be an expenditure of time and money no matter how you look at it.

Secondly, are you suggesting that it is reasonable to expect that medieval warriors could not only quantify the exact damage output made with every their weapons but to also name them accordingly, like Shovel of Skull Crushing +7? Again, this is something early-age RPGs invented to compensate for the lack of content. In reality, we do a lot of things in the real world without having any single idea how they work. Our entire lifes are little but collections of rough estimations created from gathering and extracting pieces of information from vague sets of data. Why would a game where is a game in which you asume the role of a fictional character should be any different?

By the way, it's not like you can't, as you said, to know whether your fireball or lightning bolt is more effective by casting them against things and observing the destruction. You can see final damage values every single time you cast a spell. For a math addict, it really shouldn't be that hard to extrapolate the values from there. What I'm trying to say here is that with today's technology can we at least consider the idea of letting go of the past and thinking of new, more challenging and interactive ways to increase complexity of gameplay without receding to those age-old raw character numbers.

#95
Guest_Johohoho.Ehehehe_*

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Brentra wrote...

I completely disagree. As incredible as it may sound, I believe that detailed damage and character stats ruin RPG games. Spend an hour calculating the exact critical damage of your Magic Bolt and any magical feeling you may have had about the game will go right down the drain. Name and sort your armor types by their numerical values, and you'll probably lose any sense of excitement by the time you switch you Armor of Saving Throw +2 to Armor of Saving Throw +3.

My point is, you don't really need to know every single statistic or numerical fact about an object in order to use it in real life and you most certainly don't really need to to know this stuff in games. The only reason older RPGs began using detailed stats in the first place is because they couldn't possibly transform these depth-enhancing numbers in an appropriate visual format. Today, we can do better.


Interesting thought I would agree with you and with the others at the same time. (Both approaches make sense, one being tactical the other realistic.) However, DA:O is stuck somewhere in between since it shows exact percentage of increased fatigue a piece of armour causes, but on the other hand, in relation to much more important information, e.g. how much damage a spell does, remains vague.

The point in a "mathematic" gameplay is that there musn't be an ideal perfect way how to arrange your leveling and equipment in which case all players end up with the same character and gameplay. That's an RPG nightmare.

#96
JeffMo

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SheffSteel wrote...

Numbers are a snare and a delusion. They trick you into thinking you know what's going to happen. You will never have enough information to predict the outcome of a single round of combat. Watching, experimenting, observing, and learning to play will always be more productive than studying numbers, performing calculations, and making predictions. The people who have an intuitive grasp of how the game plays are less likely to follow like sheep than those who see a numerical argument and can't see how to refute it.
If you're afraid of experimenting and making mistakes, remember that you can save the game in a new slot and come back to it later if need be - this isn't WoW.


Definitly agree here. While it would be nice to see exactly how much an upgraded spell or ability will increase with raw numbers, I belive Bioware did a great job with spell / ability scaling and balancing so you are not going to have to restart or reload your game if you selected an ability that you later thought could be worthless. Focusing on the RNG and trying to fine tune calculations based on rank by rank comparisons etc. does not add to the gameplay experience and has no bearing on the outcome of the game.

Like Sheff said this is not WoW or any other MMO and having a solid grasp of the game and good intuition will get you farther than knowing that  Crippling Shot will lower an enemies defense by 4 and not 5. That said, a liiiiiiiiiiiiiiil more detail in terms of spell / ability details wouldn't have hurt anything and would have made the majority of these complaints vanish.

And I swear if one person flames me for giving wrong stats on crippling, I will ban you from the internetz. :?

#97
Wissper

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a quicktip mouseover would be nice for more details, but can't you cast it on yourself and look at your stats to see how much they change?

#98
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Bio-Boy 3000 wrote...

Ask and ye shall understand teh awesome that is Georg Zoeller.


Dragon Age Origins: The Missing Manual

<_<

#99
leotime0

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I have no problem with the current way is, does a mage in game know in numbers how much damage his arcane bolt does?

you wont know how much your Mighty blow does exacly, you just know its powerful.

#100
hOnOr

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I would love a combat log