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Great game but I do have 1 major gripe


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#101
technosatyr

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Brentra wrote...

First, as a former developer I assure you, no matter how small an adjustment you decide to make in a finished product, it's rarely going to be easy and it's almost never going to be fact. The patch would still have to pass QA and it still would be an expenditure of time and money no matter how you look at it.

Secondly, are you suggesting that it is reasonable to expect that medieval warriors could not only quantify the exact damage output made with every their weapons but to also name them accordingly, like Shovel of Skull Crushing +7? Again, this is something early-age RPGs invented to compensate for the lack of content. In reality, we do a lot of things in the real world without having any single idea how they work. Our entire lifes are little but collections of rough estimations created from gathering and extracting pieces of information from vague sets of data. Why would a game where is a game in which you asume the role of a fictional character should be any different?

By the way, it's not like you can't, as you said, to know whether your fireball or lightning bolt is more effective by casting them against things and observing the destruction. You can see final damage values every single time you cast a spell. For a math addict, it really shouldn't be that hard to extrapolate the values from there. What I'm trying to say here is that with today's technology can we at least consider the idea of letting go of the past and thinking of new, more challenging and interactive ways to increase complexity of gameplay without receding to those age-old raw character numbers.


You are correct, any change to a finished product requires a fair bit of testing overhead before it can be released safely.  However, my understanding is that Bioware plans to continue releasing new content, which means that the overhead involved in integrating more functionalty to the UI can be absorbed in their existing plans.  My point was that they're not designing a battle log from scratch; they'd be adapting one they've already got.

I am not suggesting that a warrior would measure the newtons of force they would generate from every club swing and calculate the damage dealt by factoring in the harness of their target.  I am suggesting that that warrior probably has a good grasp (intuitive or learned) by which he or she can say "I do better with this weapon here than that weapon there".  Likewise, mages would, through a lifetime of practice, be able to say "boy, the explosion I get from my fireball is much bigger/much smaller than the explosion I get from chain lightning". 

I'm quite aware that you can test abilities, see what the numbers are and compare it to other abilites.  That's what I'm making myself do now and it's quite tedious.  In order to compare spells I've had to create a save where I have three skill books saved up so that I can compare one end-line spell to another.  Naturally I've got no way to factor in spell combos, but it's yeilding useful information regardless.   It just detracts from the game that I have to sit and do that instead of being able to look at a spell description and go "oh, look, fireball scales up from spellpower only a third as quickly as cone of cold.  I guess that'll make it a good choice for Wynne who has lots of willpower, and morrigan can use cone of cold."

I'm all for innovative new ways to handle combat in RPGs.  However, the rules of the system will always define the system.  *This* system demands tactical thinking and careful ability use.  Mana is limited, and level up choices are irrevocable.  This is a game where combat is handled using damage values.  That being the case, we should be able to see what those damage values are going to be. 

More than that, there's a lot of general information that's missing too.  There's never any mention of the size of an AOE for an effect.  There's no mention of whether a spell has a cast time (therefore no mention of how long it is).  Mass Paralyze seemed awesome until I got it and realized that sleep is a lot more useful in most situations.  Course by that point I'd already sunk the 4 points for a spell that didn't do what I thought it did.  Does the spellpower bonus from wisp increase?  If it does, by what?  Spellpower? Level? Amount of gold onhand?  When a spell says it gives "a bonus to mana regeneration" what does it mean?  Will it double the character's current mana regen? That'd be great for Wynne, but very poor for my Arcane Warrior.  Does it add a flat amount?  If it's a flat amount does the amount go up with spellpower?  Which gives more mana regen to the group, mass rejuv or spellbloom?  Does the duration of Mass Paralyze go up with spellpower?  Does sleep's duration increase with spellpower?  Do they increase at the same rate, or does one get more duration from spellpower than the other?

Yes, I can play through the game 10 times, try out all these spells and get a good feel for how they work.  Heck, that's what I've done on all my other games.  But boy, that first playthrough would have been a lot more fun if I hadn't had to abandon it because I had a character full of useless magic.
Short Version: tooltips should contain detailed spell information, otherwise we cannot make informed tactical decisions. 

#102
Emloch

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Brentra wrote...

I completely disagree. As incredible as it may sound, I believe that detailed damage and character stats ruin RPG games. Spend an hour calculating the exact critical damage of your Magic Bolt and any magical feeling you may have had about the game will go right down the drain. Name and sort your armor types by their numerical values, and you'll probably lose any sense of excitement by the time you switch you Armor of Saving Throw +2 to Armor of Saving Throw +3.

My point is, you don't really need to know every single statistic or numerical fact about an object in order to use it in real life and you most certainly don't really need to to know this stuff in games. The only reason older RPGs began using detailed stats in the first place is because they couldn't possibly transform these depth-enhancing numbers in an appropriate visual format. Today, we can do better.


Very well said. I concur.

#103
Haexpane

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hOnOr wrote...

I would love a combat log


Yeah even Jade and KOTOR had combat logs... where is the DAO one?

#104
Emloch

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technosatyr wrote...

Brentra wrote...

First, as a former developer I assure you, no matter how small an adjustment you decide to make in a finished product, it's rarely going to be easy and it's almost never going to be fact. The patch would still have to pass QA and it still would be an expenditure of time and money no matter how you look at it.

Secondly, are you suggesting that it is reasonable to expect that medieval warriors could not only quantify the exact damage output made with every their weapons but to also name them accordingly, like Shovel of Skull Crushing +7? Again, this is something early-age RPGs invented to compensate for the lack of content. In reality, we do a lot of things in the real world without having any single idea how they work. Our entire lifes are little but collections of rough estimations created from gathering and extracting pieces of information from vague sets of data. Why would a game where is a game in which you asume the role of a fictional character should be any different?

By the way, it's not like you can't, as you said, to know whether your fireball or lightning bolt is more effective by casting them against things and observing the destruction. You can see final damage values every single time you cast a spell. For a math addict, it really shouldn't be that hard to extrapolate the values from there. What I'm trying to say here is that with today's technology can we at least consider the idea of letting go of the past and thinking of new, more challenging and interactive ways to increase complexity of gameplay without receding to those age-old raw character numbers.


You are correct, any change to a finished product requires a fair bit of testing overhead before it can be released safely.  However, my understanding is that Bioware plans to continue releasing new content, which means that the overhead involved in integrating more functionalty to the UI can be absorbed in their existing plans.  My point was that they're not designing a battle log from scratch; they'd be adapting one they've already got.

I am not suggesting that a warrior would measure the newtons of force they would generate from every club swing and calculate the damage dealt by factoring in the harness of their target.  I am suggesting that that warrior probably has a good grasp (intuitive or learned) by which he or she can say "I do better with this weapon here than that weapon there".  Likewise, mages would, through a lifetime of practice, be able to say "boy, the explosion I get from my fireball is much bigger/much smaller than the explosion I get from chain lightning". 

I'm quite aware that you can test abilities, see what the numbers are and compare it to other abilites.  That's what I'm making myself do now and it's quite tedious.  In order to compare spells I've had to create a save where I have three skill books saved up so that I can compare one end-line spell to another.  Naturally I've got no way to factor in spell combos, but it's yeilding useful information regardless.   It just detracts from the game that I have to sit and do that instead of being able to look at a spell description and go "oh, look, fireball scales up from spellpower only a third as quickly as cone of cold.  I guess that'll make it a good choice for Wynne who has lots of willpower, and morrigan can use cone of cold."

I'm all for innovative new ways to handle combat in RPGs.  However, the rules of the system will always define the system.  *This* system demands tactical thinking and careful ability use.  Mana is limited, and level up choices are irrevocable.  This is a game where combat is handled using damage values.  That being the case, we should be able to see what those damage values are going to be. 

More than that, there's a lot of general information that's missing too.  There's never any mention of the size of an AOE for an effect.  There's no mention of whether a spell has a cast time (therefore no mention of how long it is).  Mass Paralyze seemed awesome until I got it and realized that sleep is a lot more useful in most situations.  Course by that point I'd already sunk the 4 points for a spell that didn't do what I thought it did.  Does the spellpower bonus from wisp increase?  If it does, by what?  Spellpower? Level? Amount of gold onhand?  When a spell says it gives "a bonus to mana regeneration" what does it mean?  Will it double the character's current mana regen? That'd be great for Wynne, but very poor for my Arcane Warrior.  Does it add a flat amount?  If it's a flat amount does the amount go up with spellpower?  Which gives more mana regen to the group, mass rejuv or spellbloom?  Does the duration of Mass Paralyze go up with spellpower?  Does sleep's duration increase with spellpower?  Do they increase at the same rate, or does one get more duration from spellpower than the other?

Yes, I can play through the game 10 times, try out all these spells and get a good feel for how they work.  Heck, that's what I've done on all my other games.  But boy, that first playthrough would have been a lot more fun if I hadn't had to abandon it because I had a character full of useless magic.
Short Version: tooltips should contain detailed spell information, otherwise we cannot make informed tactical decisions. 


Agreed: the general information should be there. As for other detailed information. I disagree. I'm playing the game, picking new spells, armor and swords without creating saves and testing, etc. and I'm doing fine.

#105
Haexpane

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Emloch wrote...

Brentra wrote...

I completely disagree. As incredible as it may sound, I believe that detailed damage and character stats ruin RPG games. Spend an hour calculating the exact critical damage of your Magic Bolt and any magical feeling you may have had about the game will go right down the drain. Name and sort your armor types by their numerical values, and you'll probably lose any sense of excitement by the time you switch you Armor of Saving Throw +2 to Armor of Saving Throw +3.

My point is, you don't really need to know every single statistic or numerical fact about an object in order to use it in real life and you most certainly don't really need to to know this stuff in games. The only reason older RPGs began using detailed stats in the first place is because they couldn't possibly transform these depth-enhancing numbers in an appropriate visual format. Today, we can do better.


Very well said. I concur.


KOTOR had combat logs and that did not happen
BG2 had combat logs and that did not happen
Jade Empire had combat logs and that did not happen.

The urban myth about "numbers were just there because graphics couldn't do it" has been debunked by JE, KOTOR, MMOs the list goes on and on.

This idea that "OH NOES NUMBER CRUNCHING WILL RUIN RPGS" is completely off base, since RPGs are built on numbers

#106
glenpeter

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True, Magic and skills need more explanation!!!

#107
PK1408

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Agreed

#108
BonafideSeraphim

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I looked at Critical Shot and Arrow of Slaying and my first thought was "WTF, why is a lower level talent doing the exact same thing with less penalties?"



Really need details about lengths of stun times, exact effects from runes, spells, and talents, how long knock downs are, areas of effect for talents that don't have the cursor thing, etc...

#109
kal_torak

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Story is cool. But story can only keep you interested in a game as long as it is new. While different char development, can last much longer. You can't just neglect that part of an rpg by hiding everything and making it transparent to the player.



Make a cool story like you ccomplished in DAO, and still give us good char development, with lots of info, so we can replay and replay again making many chars. Not only expecting the same story we already experienced 10 times. Talking about the near future ofc, still am enjoying the story

#110
maestro74

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I agree. In a game this huge it's hard to ask for more details, but it really needs more details. Clearly the people who are getting the most out of this game are the micro-managers(of course plenty of other people are enjoying it too) and the lack of spell and combat stats is glaring. Even the Prima guide suffers from lack of detail on stats (though now I am wondering if some of it is due to Bioware just not providing the information).

#111
Yaruchi

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agreed.

#112
kal_torak

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maestro74 wrote...
though now I am wondering if some of it is due to Bioware just not providing the information.


Like I mentioned before, I am sure they want to hide things on purpose. After playing for 16 levels, and finding the difficulty of the game totally balanced exactly the same at each level fighting whatever I am fighting, I think they scaled everything too much. It looks like they check your level and try to provide you with an apropiate fight whatever you are doing. That is absolutly crap for an rpg and I think they kind of hide it without providing stats of chars and enemies.

#113
exerci

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In all honesty, I see the point. For example, the reaver specialization has an ability that allows him to AoE damage everyone around himself (and himself) at all times. When you read it, you think "whoo!" But when you actually get it, you find out that it does paltry damage, therefore pretty much being a wasted point.



If you then end up using 5-6ish points on relatively weak skills, then the game will be a lot harder.

#114
soteria

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SheffSteel wrote...

Numbers are a snare and a delusion. They trick you into thinking you know what's going to happen. You will never have enough information to predict the outcome of a single round of combat. Watching, experimenting, observing, and learning to play will always be more productive than studying numbers, performing calculations, and making predictions. The people who have an intuitive grasp of how the game plays are less likely to follow like sheep than those who see a numerical argument and can't see how to refute it.

If you're afraid of experimenting and making mistakes, remember that you can save the game in a new slot and come back to it later if need be - this isn't WoW.


SheffSteel, you generally make intelligent posts, but this isn't one of them.  Also, you probably shouldn't comment about WoW.  Actually, most people probably shouldn't talk about how WoW ruined things when what they mean is MMOs made RPGs more popular.

First, I can predict what will happen in a round of combat (from a numbers perspective) with fair accuracy.  Backstabs do predictable damage before armor comes into play.  Same with spells.  Being good at the "greater game" has always been more important than knowing what build will give you 2% more single-target damage--and that includes WoW.

Speaking of WoW, it's ironic that you imply DA:O is better in this way, 'cause it really isn't.  In WoW if you make a mistake in building your character it might be expensive to fix but you can fix it.  In DA:O if you play for ten levels and realize, "Holy cow, this line of spells just isn't what I thought it would be from the descriptions," you're screwed.  Best-case, you reload to before you selected that single spell.  It could also be that you picked up one (or three) spells you never cared about to pick what you thought would be an awesome ability, and it ends up a dud or just not what you thought.

#115
Rishavs

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signed. add it in the next patch.

#116
Sceptic83

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No detailed descriptions, a few magics compared to other games, and too much simple spells. Don't flame me but i feel this game (in its technical part) more arcade than any wow..even nox that is an hack and slash has a better spell system. My opinion :)

#117
Spaceweed10

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I can understand Bioware's stance on this - I can't believe it was 'missed', so I'm assuming it was a design decision - because as soon as you give the math breakdown, all the dweebs come out in force to tell us which is OP by 0.4% and which is UP by 1.2% etc.



As much as I would like to know certain numbers - ie, how much 'bleed' is added to an ability, or how long each debuff/buff lasts, I don't find it game breaking.

#118
Lughsan35

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Haexpane wrote...

Emloch wrote...

Brentra wrote...

I completely disagree. As incredible as it may sound, I believe that detailed damage and character stats ruin RPG games. Spend an hour calculating the exact critical damage of your Magic Bolt and any magical feeling you may have had about the game will go right down the drain. Name and sort your armor types by their numerical values, and you'll probably lose any sense of excitement by the time you switch you Armor of Saving Throw +2 to Armor of Saving Throw +3.

My point is, you don't really need to know every single statistic or numerical fact about an object in order to use it in real life and you most certainly don't really need to to know this stuff in games. The only reason older RPGs began using detailed stats in the first place is because they couldn't possibly transform these depth-enhancing numbers in an appropriate visual format. Today, we can do better.


Very well said. I concur.


KOTOR had combat logs and that did not happen
BG2 had combat logs and that did not happen
Jade Empire had combat logs and that did not happen.

The urban myth about "numbers were just there because graphics couldn't do it" has been debunked by JE, KOTOR, MMOs the list goes on and on.

This idea that "OH NOES NUMBER CRUNCHING WILL RUIN RPGS" is completely off base, since RPGs are built on numbers


The whole universe is built on Math... you don't need it if you can see the results and feel it :)

:o

#119
miltos33

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[quote]Lughsan35 wrote...

[/quote]

The whole universe is built on Math... you don't need it if you can see the results and feel it :)

:o

[/quote]

Yes, but it is good to know about it which is the difference between science and mysticism.

#120
CipherGnome

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I would sure love to see the same log screen that NWN had. Showing you the "dice" rolls.

#121
Sceptic83

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Lughsan35 wrote...

Haexpane wrote...

Emloch wrote...

Brentra wrote...

I completely disagree. As incredible as it may sound, I believe that detailed damage and character stats ruin RPG games. Spend an hour calculating the exact critical damage of your Magic Bolt and any magical feeling you may have had about the game will go right down the drain. Name and sort your armor types by their numerical values, and you'll probably lose any sense of excitement by the time you switch you Armor of Saving Throw +2 to Armor of Saving Throw +3.

My point is, you don't really need to know every single statistic or numerical fact about an object in order to use it in real life and you most certainly don't really need to to know this stuff in games. The only reason older RPGs began using detailed stats in the first place is because they couldn't possibly transform these depth-enhancing numbers in an appropriate visual format. Today, we can do better.


Very well said. I concur.


KOTOR had combat logs and that did not happen
BG2 had combat logs and that did not happen
Jade Empire had combat logs and that did not happen.

The urban myth about "numbers were just there because graphics couldn't do it" has been debunked by JE, KOTOR, MMOs the list goes on and on.

This idea that "OH NOES NUMBER CRUNCHING WILL RUIN RPGS" is completely off base, since RPGs are built on numbers


The whole universe is built on Math... you don't need it if you can see the results and feel it :)

:o

Are you comparing a game to real word? Ok let's do it. Let's talk about military weapons. This is an example of how we cares about numbers in weapons:
Spoiler
So dont talk me about we dont use numbers in real life.

#122
torath77

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With user modules for leveling and PvP coming, we will find out all stats eventually.

With the social site and online profiles, bioware wants people to look at stats. And if you compare numbers with others - you want to know what they mean, and not how it feels to play. So hiding those for a better experience doens't make sense.



As bioware and its games come from a PnP origin, all PnP gamers want to know the stats and effects as this is the way it works. And making skilldecision is one major aspect of rpgs. How can you do it, if you don't know what the skills exactly do. People will reload if the skills and talents don't work as they expected and this forces you to play scenes again, which is boring.



So I completly disagree with bentra.



The only positive thing I see is, that I will play I t through again, when I know all rules in detail. But I will play it anyhow - alone for the different origins.

A good system does not have one best option, like in the NWN games. I probably spend more time on doing builds which I never played, than in playing the campaings, although I played all addons several times.

#123
Billyo 9999

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I have only been able to get my fire resist up to 75%. Then it seems to cap out. Does anyone know of a source that explains this stat in more detail?

#124
Kaerwek

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Frankly, what I'd love to see implemented in this game is coop multiplayer. I wish it only because of nostalgic reasons, where I played through Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 with my brother in multiplayer. That was epic I might add.



I find it rather sad that Dragon Age: Origins doesn't have it implemented. It'd sure add to the replay value too.

#125
xeltar2600

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Agreed