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Have all the Cardinal rules of Magic been broken?


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#1
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Many of us may be unawares, but there exists a not so oft-referenced Codex-entry that describes Cardinal rules of Magic. It professes that Magic is not all powerful and there are limits on what you can wring out of it.

In a nutshell the rules are:

1) No Teleportation
2) No Physical entry into the Fade
3) No Ressuruction. No Immortality.

It is my belief that all these rules have been broken. They may have been broken by different people at different times.. But I think there is a chance that a group of people acting together broke them all AT ONCE. I am sure you guess already that I am referencing the august assemblage of the Tevinter Magisters that broke into the "Golden city" and started the first blight.

Lets see how one can go about forwarding this theory:

I wil start with the "Entering the Fade in physical bodies" part. This requires little explanation. Two-thirds of the Imperium Lyrium and blood of hundreds was the power that somehow propelled the mortal vessels of Tevinter Magisters into the Fade. Blood magic is an ugly, but a powerful ally indeed.

Next we think about Teleportation.

I assume the players of DA are familiar with the term Hyperspace. It is a cliche Deux Ex Machina used to explain inter-stellar travel: It is  a space above our plane of existance that connects any two points in our universe by a shorter distance than the straight line between them. This "short" cut can actually be zero in length, in which case one call call the mode of travel teleportation.

Here is where I think the true genius of the Magister's was revealed. I believe that they realized that the Fade was not unlike Hyperspace and could be used for teleportation. Their target? The sunken city of Arlathan. I would like you to read one of my previous posts to get a better understanding of my conjecturs...

The means to reach there were as follows:
                                                      1. Enter Fade Physically.
                                                      2. Go to Black/Golden city which I postulate is Arlthan's reflection in Fade
                                                      3. Go back to mortal world, arriving at the Sunken Arlathan.

Evidently they manged to do the first and second step successfully... Too successfully one might say.

The Tevinter Magisters had everything... they had power, they had slaves, they had all the wealth of the mortal world and command of Fade demons at their bidding.... What they craved for, to my best of knowledge (Codex Entry: Drake's Fall) was immortality. This, they saw with envy as a gift given to the Elves, but not to them. In their jealosy and their pride, they sought to take it for themselves....And thus they heeded the advice of the Old Gods (Again I would like to draw you attention to one of my previous posts) who, it can be assumed promised them what they sought. For were not the Old Gods immortals? High-dragons die.. as we know.. a natural death.. but Arch-demons don't, a testament of their being beyond the scope of mortal world... They also have the power to summon their soul from its path to the Fade to a mortal vessel (such as a Darkspawn)... And this power they promised to the Magisters...

And in one step that was taken on the fateful day the Magisters sent their living flesh into the fade, broke all the cardinal rules or found the means to do so, was the doom of the world sealed and the Blight arrived on Thedas....


Time for speculation:


This thing casts a new light on Flemeth. She seems to have broken at least one Cardinal rule of Magic. Of Immortality.

Modifié par SirShreK, 19 juillet 2010 - 10:48 .


#2
Vandicus

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the Elvish homeland sunk well after the Golden City incident?

#3
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Vandicus wrote...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the Elvish homeland sunk well after the Golden City incident?


Yes. There is a link in my post about Arlathan.. Kindly have a look.

Modifié par SirShreK, 19 juillet 2010 - 11:00 .


#4
yogolol

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Isn't the "mages broke into the golden city and turned into darkspawn" a belief by the chantry?

#5
Narreneth

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Flemeth is not immortal. Her body can die. The demon that possesses her allows her to transfer her soul to another mortal vessel. Spirits in Dragon Age are just as immortal as they are in modern-day religions that believe in an afterlife.

#6
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yogolol wrote...

Isn't the "mages broke into the golden city and turned into darkspawn" a belief by the chantry?

errr.. .There is aLink in my post? Please be kind enough to look at the arlathan post...

#7
Narreneth

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yogolol wrote...

Isn't the "mages broke into the golden city and turned into darkspawn" a belief by the chantry?


Yes.

#8
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Narreneth wrote...

Flemeth is not immortal. Her body can die. The demon that possesses her allows her to transfer her soul to another mortal vessel. Spirits in Dragon Age are just as immortal as they are in modern-day religions that believe in an afterlife.


What you perhaps mean is that her body can WHITHER. Well.. Immortality perhaps is not the REAL DEAL in DA universe. To make it clear, I meant immortality as being able to live indefinitely unless murdered... (small spelling edit)

Modifié par SirShreK, 19 juillet 2010 - 11:05 .


#9
Narreneth

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SirShreK wrote...

Narreneth wrote...

Flemeth is not immortal. Her body can die. The demon that possesses her allows her to transfer her soul to another mortal vessel. Spirits in Dragon Age are just as immortal as they are in modern-day religions that believe in an afterlife.


What you perhaps mean is that her body can WHITHER. Well.. Immortality perhaps is not the REAL DEAL in DA universe. To make it clear, I meant immortality as being able to live indefinitely unless murdered... (small spelling edit)


Yeah.  That's the point.  What you fail to understand is that Flemeth can die.  Through ritual she can be transferred from one vessel to the next.  Her body can die.  Her spirit can not.  But neither can anyone else's.  When you die your spirit enters the fade.  Flemeth is an abomination.  She is possessed by a demon.  This is why she can avoid being directly expelled into the fade when her body dies.  The details of how the pact works and how it can be broken have not been revealed yet.

You are misunderstanding the cardinal rules of magic.

#10
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Narreneth wrote...

SirShreK wrote...

Narreneth wrote...

Flemeth is not immortal. Her body can die. The demon that possesses her allows her to transfer her soul to another mortal vessel. Spirits in Dragon Age are just as immortal as they are in modern-day religions that believe in an afterlife.


What you perhaps mean is that her body can WHITHER. Well.. Immortality perhaps is not the REAL DEAL in DA universe. To make it clear, I meant immortality as being able to live indefinitely unless murdered... (small spelling edit)


Yeah.  That's the point.  What you fail to understand is that Flemeth can die.  Through ritual she can be transferred from one vessel to the next.  Her body can die.  Her spirit can not.  But neither can anyone else's.  When you die your spirit enters the fade.  Flemeth is an abomination.  She is possessed by a demon.  This is why she can avoid being directly expelled into the fade when her body dies.  The details of how the pact works and how it can be broken have not been revealed yet.

You are misunderstanding the cardinal rules of magic.


Sonny... How old are you?

#11
SirOccam

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I think Avernus from the Warden's Keep DLC is a better example of immortality than Flemeth. Zathrian would be, too, for that matter.

Flemeth is achieving "immortality" by changing bodies. She's avoiding death, but that's not the same as being immune to it. Taking a new body isn't granting immortality, it's granting an extension. She has to keep changing bodies over and over to attain anything resembling immortality, and even then it can never accurately be called immortality.

#12
Narreneth

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SirShreK wrote...

Narreneth wrote...

SirShreK wrote...

Narreneth wrote...

Flemeth is not immortal. Her body can die. The demon that possesses her allows her to transfer her soul to another mortal vessel. Spirits in Dragon Age are just as immortal as they are in modern-day religions that believe in an afterlife.


What you perhaps mean is that her body can WHITHER. Well.. Immortality perhaps is not the REAL DEAL in DA universe. To make it clear, I meant immortality as being able to live indefinitely unless murdered... (small spelling edit)


Yeah.  That's the point.  What you fail to understand is that Flemeth can die.  Through ritual she can be transferred from one vessel to the next.  Her body can die.  Her spirit can not.  But neither can anyone else's.  When you die your spirit enters the fade.  Flemeth is an abomination.  She is possessed by a demon.  This is why she can avoid being directly expelled into the fade when her body dies.  The details of how the pact works and how it can be broken have not been revealed yet.

You are misunderstanding the cardinal rules of magic.


Sonny... How old are you?


What the **** is your deal?  You are misunderstanding what the cardinal rules of magic mean.   Spirits are transferred from one body to another in DA pretty frequently.  Golems, anyone?  But the golems can die as well.

Immortality in the sense of the word in the codex entry is referring to creating a body that cannot die.  Ever.  Making the user completely immune to death.  There are no instances of this in Dragon Age.  Ever.

You bring up the age thing as if it was a valid point.  Even if I were a child as you are trying to imply (I'm not) that doesn't change the fact that you are just as wrong on this point as you were about Wynne being immortal in your post yesterday.  Quit trying to think.  You aren't good at it.

#13
Narreneth

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SirOccam wrote...

I think Avernus from the Warden's Keep DLC is a better example of immortality than Flemeth. Zathrian would be, too, for that matter.
Flemeth is achieving "immortality" by changing bodies. She's avoiding death, but that's not the same as being immune to it. Taking a new body isn't granting immortality, it's granting an extension. She has to keep changing bodies over and over to attain anything resembling immortality, and even then it can never accurately be called immortality.


Watch out, idiotic post insinuating that you're a child because you don't think his bull**** theory is possible incoming.

#14
Withidread

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I'm having trouble figuring out the significance of all this.

If there are cardinal rules, and if they have indeed been broken.... So what?

Someone care to enlighten me?

Modifié par Withidread, 19 juillet 2010 - 11:18 .


#15
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SirOccam wrote...

I think Avernus from the Warden's Keep DLC is a better example of immortality than Flemeth. Zathrian would be, too, for that matter.
Flemeth is achieving "immortality" by changing bodies. She's avoiding death, but that's not the same as being immune to it. Taking a new body isn't granting immortality, it's granting an extension. She has to keep changing bodies over and over to attain anything resembling immortality, and even then it can never accurately be called immortality.


I think I can rectify that a little. Morrigan explains when asked, that Flemeth can not die, but HER BODY CONTINUES TO AGE. So to avoid becoming dumb and deaf and uanblet o move around  to go to the toilet, she must have a youthful body....

But. I would like you to concentrate on the rest of the post. The Flemeth part is there just as an ornament. If someone removed it, I would not care less.

#16
Ravenfeeder

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Better example of breaking the laws is Valenna in any of her cut scenes in the Wending Wood. Looked like she was teleporting to me.

#17
The Edge

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Maybe we should just think of them as "guidelines"?

#18
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Withidread wrote...

I'm having trouble figuring out the significance of all this.

If there are cardinal rules, and if they have indeed been broken.... So what?

Someone care to enlighten me?


Just that I think that their being broken caused the Blight and stuff...

#19
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The Edge wrote...

Maybe we should just think of them as "guidelines"?


Considering that they can be broken, yup.

#20
Stanley Woo

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Let's stop it with the name-calling and insults, please. Thank you.

#21
Withidread

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SirShreK wrote...

Just that I think that their being broken caused the Blight and stuff...


Gotcha, thanks. That's the piece I was missing.

#22
andar91

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I think the immortality issue depends on how you look at immortality. Flemeth can die but because of her possession, her death is not a natural one and she somehow avoids death (I'm assuming, as someone else stated, that the demon she is bonded with helps her resist passing on but we really don't know). By prolonging her life by transferring herself into new bodies, she is effectively immortal, but she isn't truly immortal. Therefore, imo, that law of magic is not broken.



I also don't believe that the "no teleportation" rule has been broken although I definitely see where you're coming from. When they say teleportation I think they mean instant transport from one location to another. It seems to me that the theory you put forth is really referring to a system not unlike a back door; like getting to another room by a hallway, whereas teleportation would skip the hallway altogether. Unless I'm wrong, however, this would mean that you are right about breaking the rules of not physically entering the Fade. However, I wonder if the Cardinal Rules of Magic codex was referring to common magic which is to say, not forbidden blood magic that requires thousands of slaves to die to fuel the spell.

#23
Gill Kaiser

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You keep making all these long, speculative posts, but we have far too little evidence available for any of your theories to be judged against, so the whole affair is pointless.

#24
Malanek

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The thing about the codex is that it is not fact. Each entry is told from a (potentially flawed) point of view. This particular passage is only what an enchanter knows and onlywhat they want to pass on. If blood magic can be used to extend life, if makes sense that a circle enchanter, under the supervision of the Templars, would not want to impart the truth, even if they were aware of it.
I don't see the point in getting into an argument over the definition of immortality. Flemmeths lifespan is indefinite, so yes although she does need new bodies, I would consider her immortal.

Modifié par Malanek999, 19 juillet 2010 - 11:24 .


#25
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andar91 wrote...

I think the immortality issue depends on how you look at immortality. Flemeth can die but because of her possession, her death is not a natural one and she somehow avoids death (I'm assuming, as someone else stated, that the demon she is bonded with helps her resist passing on but we really don't know). By prolonging her life by transferring herself into new bodies, she is effectively immortal, but she isn't truly immortal. Therefore, imo, that law of magic is not broken.

I also don't believe that the "no teleportation" rule has been broken although I definitely see where you're coming from. When they say teleportation I think they mean instant transport from one location to another. It seems to me that the theory you put forth is really referring to a system not unlike a back door; like getting to another room by a hallway, whereas teleportation would skip the hallway altogether. Unless I'm wrong, however, this would mean that you are right about breaking the rules of not physically entering the Fade. However, I wonder if the Cardinal Rules of Magic codex was referring to common magic which is to say, not forbidden blood magic that requires thousands of slaves to die to fuel the spell.


The last part in your post  is what I am wondering about.... So does that mean that Blood magic is beyond the scope of NORMAL magic? I would like to definitely talk about that... (and I am just a PhD in physics so no biggie :P)......


(EDIT: something that was missing)

Modifié par SirShreK, 19 juillet 2010 - 11:25 .