124 réponses à ce sujet

[Narreneth]

SirShreK wrote...

SirOccam wrote...

I think Avernus from the Warden's Keep DLC is a better example of immortality than Flemeth. Zathrian would be, too, for that matter.
Flemeth is achieving "immortality" by changing bodies. She's avoiding death, but that's not the same as being immune to it. Taking a new body isn't granting immortality, it's granting an extension. She has to keep changing bodies over and over to attain anything resembling immortality, and even then it can never accurately be called immortality.

I think I can rectify that a little. Morrigan explains when asked, that Flemeth can not die, but HER BODY CONTINUES TO AGE. So to avoid becoming dumb and deaf and uanblet o move around  to go to the toilet, she must have a youthful body....

But. I would like you to concentrate on the rest of the post. The Flemeth part is there just as an ornament. If someone removed it, I would not care less.

You didn't rectify anything by saying that.  Her body is not immortal.  You need to come to grips with this before the conversation can really continue.  She needs to get another body to continue living.  Morrigan doesn't know everything there is to know about Flemeth, this is very clear if you actually take the time to listen to anything that is said in the course of the game when you talk to Morrigan.

[Malanek]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

You keep making all these long, speculative posts, but we have far too little evidence available for any of your theories to be judged against, so the whole affair is pointless.

I think its fine to speculate. It's certainly refreshing to read instead of the many threads repeatedly popping up about the same complaints. And every now and then a writer might pop in to give an answer.

[Riona45]

Malanek999 wrote...

The thing about the codex is that it is not fact. Each entry is told from a (potentially flawed) point of view. This particular passage is only what an enchanter knows and onlywhat they want to pass on. If blood magic can be used to extend life, if makes sense that a circle enchanter, under the supervision of the Templars, would not want to impart the truth, even if they were aware of it.

That was what I was going to say.  There are types of magic in the world that Circle mages don't teach apprentices, even aside from blood magic.  This is touched on in an early conversation with Morrigan (shapeshifting isn't acknowledged by the Circle), and it's pretty clear that Dalish mages aren't exactly the same as Circle mages.  The "cardinal rules" of magic codex entry was supposed to be written by an in-setting Circle mage.  There's no reason to assume these rules are fact, and if they aren't, nothing was "broken."

[andar91]

SirShreK wrote...

andar91 wrote...

I think the immortality issue depends on how you look at immortality. Flemeth can die but because of her possession, her death is not a natural one and she somehow avoids death (I'm assuming, as someone else stated, that the demon she is bonded with helps her resist passing on but we really don't know). By prolonging her life by transferring herself into new bodies, she is effectively immortal, but she isn't truly immortal. Therefore, imo, that law of magic is not broken.

I also don't believe that the "no teleportation" rule has been broken although I definitely see where you're coming from. When they say teleportation I think they mean instant transport from one location to another. It seems to me that the theory you put forth is really referring to a system not unlike a back door; like getting to another room by a hallway, whereas teleportation would skip the hallway altogether. Unless I'm wrong, however, this would mean that you are right about breaking the rules of not physically entering the Fade. However, I wonder if the Cardinal Rules of Magic codex was referring to common magic which is to say, not forbidden blood magic that requires thousands of slaves to die to fuel the spell.

The last part in your post  is what I am wondering about.... So does that mean that Blood magic is beyond the scope of NORMAL magic? I would like to definitely talk about that... (and I am just a PhD in physics so no biggie )......


(EDIT: something that was missing)

Well, I wouldn't necessarily say that Blood Magic is beyond the scope of normal magic.  Magic, at its core, is a system of manipulating matter, energy, and reality through mana (that would be my definition, anyway).  Blood magic, like any other spell, is just a means to an end fueled by mana-I don't think it is inherently evil except that the uses that the ends that it achieves are by their very nature, morally reprehensible.  I do, however, think that the SCOPE of the blood magic we're discussing goes beyond normal magic.  After all, your average mage probably doesn't have a couple thousand thralls to sacrifice for their magic.  Also, most mages may not be aware that blood magic can be used in this way so the "cardinal rules" may be less accurate than they seem due to limited knowledge.

[Narreneth]

SirShreK wrote...

@ Andar 91:

It just seems to me that Blood magic is at the heart of DA universe along with the Black city (which I think is Arlathan). It is just SO very tangled up everywhere that it makes you question if it is a clue to the mystery behind, lets say, the blight. As an example: Eating Flesh to become a Broodmother is kinda blood magic, so is the Joining ritual. Heck, the Reaver specialization IS blood magic. Makes you think how it affects not only mages but also warriors and stuff.

It doesn't make sense for the Black City to be Arlathan.  Arlathan is a known fact.  It was a city that was populated by elves.  The Golden City was supposedly the seat of the Maker.  It is not known to exist for sure.  If Arlathan had been the Golden City before it was sunk below the earth by the Imperium; then everyone would know it.  

[andar91]

SirShreK wrote...

@ Andar 91:

It just seems to me that Blood magic is at the heart of DA universe along with the Black city (which I think is Arlathan). It is just SO very tangled up everywhere that it makes you question if it is a clue to the mystery behind, lets say, the blight. As an example: Eating Flesh to become a Broodmother is kinda blood magic, so is the Joining ritual. Heck, the Reaver specialization IS blood magic. Makes you think how it affects not only mages but also warriors and stuff.

Perhaps. It's difficult to say without more information from the developers but the speculation is certainly an interesting topic.

[Narreneth]

SirShreK wrote...

@ Andar 91:

It just seems to me that Blood magic is at the heart of DA universe along with the Black city (which I think is Arlathan). It is just SO very tangled up everywhere that it makes you question if it is a clue to the mystery behind, lets say, the blight. As an example: Eating Flesh to become a Broodmother is kinda blood magic, so is the Joining ritual. Heck, the Reaver specialization IS blood magic. Makes you think how it affects not only mages but also warriors and stuff.

The Joining is not Blood Magic.  Blood Magic is an art originally taught by demons.  It's magic fuelled by blood rather than by Lyrium.  The Joining has no magic in it.  It is simply someone drinking darkspawn blood (which is tainted).  Those who survive become tainted and as such can sense darkspawn. 

[Kandene]

I think the rules can be broken for a price.



The mage in the brecillian forest seemed to be able to teleport... but was insane.



The tevintars entered the fade physically and supposedly became darkspawn



Elves were immortal IDK there price but Zathrian seemed like he could live forever so probably involves blood sacrafices or curses.

[Herr Uhl]

Narreneth wrote...

The Joining is not Blood Magic.  Blood Magic is an art originally taught by demons.  It's magic fuelled by blood rather than by Lyrium.  The Joining has no magic in it.  It is simply someone drinking darkspawn blood (which is tainted).  Those who survive become tainted and as such can sense darkspawn. 

It is usually purified by magic, but if you found a good enough vintage you have yourself a insta-warden cocktail.

[Herr Uhl]

Kandene wrote...

I think the rules can be broken for a price.

The mage in the brecillian forest seemed to be able to teleport... but was insane.

He didn't teleport though.

[Narreneth]

Kandene wrote...

I think the rules can be broken for a price.

The mage in the brecillian forest seemed to be able to teleport... but was insane.

The tevintars entered the fade physically and supposedly became darkspawn

Elves were immortal IDK there price but Zathrian seemed like he could live forever so probably involves blood sacrafices or curses.

Zathrian could live forever because he bound himself to the spirit he summoned to curse the Werewolves.  But he truly wasn't immortal in the literal sense of the word, and that is ultimately what the codex entry is about.  There's a difference between being ageless and immortal.  If you stab Zathrian, he dies.  If you stab the werewolves he cursed, they die.  They aren't immortal, they just simply don't die of old age.

The story about the Tevinters is not fact.  It is what the Chantry teaches.  It may or may not be true.  It is possible that the Tevinters entered the Fade physically and became darkspawn, sure.  If that were to be the case, then the consequence of doing so is enough to support the fact that rules cannot truly be broken. 

As far as the mage in the forest, I don't recall him doing anything besides making himself invisible.

[Zephee]

morrigan mentions the mage in the forest uses illusions rather than actual teleportation.

[AlexXIV]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Let's stop it with the name-calling and insults, please. Thank you.

That's not quite the dev quote I was hoping to find in this thread ...

[Grommash94]

The only one I feel that has been broken is the rule about physically entering the Fade. But seeing as it included thousands of slaves dying via blood magic, AND 2/3 of the lyrium in all of Tevinter....I don't think it really counts

[Herr Uhl]

SirShreK wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Let's stop it with the name-calling and insults, please. Thank you.

That's not quite the dev quote I was hoping to find in this thread ...

Neither was I . Lets wait for Mary or David.

What about this one?

David Gaider wrote...
When the discussion has come up in the past, I've always been hesitant to say that Dragon Age is a "low magic" setting... just like the difference between "dark fantasy" and "high fantasy", it's not generally a case of being solely on one side or the other (and that's ignoring the fact that the phrases are going to mean slightly different things depending on who you're talking to).

Certainly in terms of the world at large, magic is rare. A player character is, however, something of a radical exception. You're involved in events that have you in magic up to your armpits. Is it enough to say that magic is not commonplace even if the player sees it all the time? Certainly it's nothing like the Forgotten Realms where you could expect the average citizen to shrug at any demonstration of magic. In that setting, magic-users and enchanted items are commonplace.

I suppose it also determines exactly what sorts of themes you can expect to find. In most high magic settings, encountering a floating city or traveling through magic portals to other dimensions wouldn't be out of place. You've got a large presence of the fantastical[/i] in that sort of setting... whereas in Dragon Age, such things would be out of place. There are no floating cities, and magic -- while powerful -- still has limitations on what it can do. It can't resurrect the dead or teleport you or open up gateways to other dimensions.

Ultimately it's a stylistic difference, but it's not going to fit into a neat box like "low fantasy". Personally I hate trying to define something by what it isn't[/i] -- but, being Canadian, I suppose that should come more naturally.  

Anyhow, I hope that makes some sense.

[Grommash94]

filaminstrel wrote...

Teleportation: It seems like Valenna can teleport. Connor's demon can teleport (not just in the Fade, but if you fight her in the real world, she disappears several times and reappears somewhere else, IIRC). The Arcane Horror in the Brecilian forest can teleport between those four tiles on the floor. The mad mage can also teleport, as mentioned. In all of those cases though, demons are involved, except in Valenna's case, but she may just be burrowing through the ground with those vines.

Resurrection: well, this rule states a couple of things. First, that life is finite. I don't think they necessarily need to be IMMORTAL to break this law, but merely to halt the aging process and be, in essence, what we in the real world would call "biologically immortal." Avernus, Zathrian and Flemeth are worth mentioning here, but while they could each be said to be attempting to evade this rule, that doesn't mean they're breaking it, per se.

-With Avernus he's just buying his time via blood magic, not preventing his death entirely.
-With Zathrian, he's also using blood magic, and while he does seem to be immortal, in a way, it hinges on the curse surviving along with him, so it's more like "immortality with strings attached."
-With Flemeth, it's more like she found a loophole in the law, rather than that she broke the law. Each body of hers has a finite life and she simply jumps to another one before it dies. And this probably only works because she's an abomination, because only Fade spirits have been shown to be able to possess bodies that aren't theirs.

The second part of the Resurrection rule states that no spirit can be recalled to a body. I haven't seen this rule broken. Fade spirits can occupy vacant bodies (and usually go insane, but Justice didn't), but again, they seem to operate differently than people's spirits.

Physical entrance to the Fade: Well, that's all just speculation. The Tevinter mages supposedly entered the Golden City.

Morrigan mentioned that the bold was just a powerful illusion.

[Narreneth]

Herr Uhl wrote...

SirShreK wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Let's stop it with the name-calling and insults, please. Thank you.

That's not quite the dev quote I was hoping to find in this thread ...

Neither was I . Lets wait for Mary or David.

What about this one?

David Gaider wrote...
When the discussion has come up in the past, I've always been hesitant to say that Dragon Age is a "low magic" setting... just like the difference between "dark fantasy" and "high fantasy", it's not generally a case of being solely on one side or the other (and that's ignoring the fact that the phrases are going to mean slightly different things depending on who you're talking to).

Certainly in terms of the world at large, magic is rare. A player character is, however, something of a radical exception. You're involved in events that have you in magic up to your armpits. Is it enough to say that magic is not commonplace even if the player sees it all the time? Certainly it's nothing like the Forgotten Realms where you could expect the average citizen to shrug at any demonstration of magic. In that setting, magic-users and enchanted items are commonplace.

I suppose it also determines exactly what sorts of themes you can expect to find. In most high magic settings, encountering a floating city or traveling through magic portals to other dimensions wouldn't be out of place. You've got a large presence of the fantastical[/i] in that sort of setting... whereas in Dragon Age, such things would be out of place. There are no floating cities, and magic -- while powerful -- still has limitations on what it can do. It can't resurrect the dead or teleport you or open up gateways to other dimensions.

Ultimately it's a stylistic difference, but it's not going to fit into a neat box like "low fantasy". Personally I hate trying to define something by what it isn't[/i] -- but, being Canadian, I suppose that should come more naturally.  

Anyhow, I hope that makes some sense.

Thanks.  I knew that quote was floating around there somewhere but I didn't want to reference it until I could actually locate it. 

I hope that will stop the speculating outside the lines of what we know isn't possible in the DA world.

I'm glad people like SirShrek are involving themselves with the Lore, but when they get so blatantly offensive when someone says something to the contrary, it's ridiculous.

[Arrtis]

so far i have not seen any teleportation.

Morrigan says she can die ad is not immortal.She only overcame old age.

As far as I can tell also no one has been in the fade *physically*.You can mess with things in the fade without being physically there.Thus the golden city became black.