89 réponses à ce sujet

[errant_knight]

Narreneth wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Whether a dialogue choice has a different result isn't really the point. The game has to get fron A to B regardless. The point of having different choices is roleplay. Even the choice of two benign responses is important if they demonstrate a different type of character using them.

It's a good thing then, that there's more than just "good" and "bad."  Seriously, there's going to be the same amount of dialogue choices as there were in Origins.  Why is this so hard to understand?

If you don't like the VO for your own reasons, fine.  Slapping rationales on it that aren't true is completely pointless, though.

I wasn't even talking about that, although, no, I don't like it. I certainly wouldn't have used this as a reason why, though. I was responding to someone who said that you didn't need choices if the end result is the same, when in fact you do. Different ways of getting to the same place is what roleplaying is all about. I wasn't even talking about DA2, specifically, just about the fact that choice is always necessary. I can't imagine that they would remove that, no matter what other choices are made, which has now been confirmed by Mr. Gaider (thank you ), but I really don't think was in doubt.

[Blacklash93]

David Gaider wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
I was talking about DA:O whare I thought they did. The end result is the same, but that doesn't mean you don't get different dialogue. There's usually at least a few words or a sentence or two that are different, depending on your choice.

And it is exactly the same in DA2.

jon372 wrote...
Huh, well unless theres ''Investigation'' like
ME, then you could have as much as 8

There is. So you have 5 options on the main wheel plus "Investigate", which brings you to another wheel hub where you have up to 5 more options (plus "Return"). So we do, in fact, have the ability to put up more options than we did in DAO. We're not always going to use all of those, of course (any more than we did all six in DAO) but in terms of the number of choices we put up we are not limited by the wheel at all.

Narreneth wrote...
If you don't like the VO for your own
reasons, fine.  Slapping rationales on it that aren't true is completely
pointless, though.

I think the problem some people are expressing is that they don't like the paraphrase system, and that sometimes the intent of the paraphrase isn't clear. I think the icon system we use (an icon is represented in the middle of the dialogue wheel when we need to express a particular intent, such as "Intimidate" or "Flirt" or "Combat") mitigates that to an extent... but I don't doubt there are people for whom that's simply never going to work. You are also correct, however, that there's no point in assigning problems to the system that simply don't exist... nor in assuming that the style used in Mass Effect's narrative structure will be exactly the same in DA2 simply because we use the same system (though what else do you have to compare it to for the moment?).

That's good to hear.

So... do certain positions on the wheel usually represent a particular moral alignment, like how the "good" option is always on the upper-right slot in Mass Effect? And do persuade/intimidate options count as 2 of those 5 choices?

[jjbens]

im sure its going to be good they did a good job im ME 2

[CybAnt1]

The answer to the question is yes, and was why some people were against voicing for the protagonist prior to it becoming a feature in DA2.



Here's the bottom line, simple economics. Voice actors are paid by the hour. The longer the lines they have to recite, and the more lines they have to recite, the more they have to be paid.



For obvious economic reasons, a voiced protagonist will have shorter, fewer dialogue options over a non-voiced one. The game's budget will demand it.



This change is inevitable, regardless of whether a wheel or a menu is the mechanic for prodding the voiced protagonist to recite their lines.



In a sense, it's kind of why the interface is a secondary debate; voicing itself is also going to cause a change no matter what.

[MerinTB]

David Gaider wrote...
There is. So you have 5 options on the main wheel plus "Investigate", which brings you to another wheel hub where you have up to 5 more options (plus "Return"). So we do, in fact, have the ability to put up more options than we did in DAO. We're not always going to use all of those, of course (any more than we did all six in DAO) but in terms of the number of choices we put up we are not limited by the wheel at all.

Uhm, not to be nitpicky... ok, to BE nitpicky, you could have had a "more options" in the dialog tree in DAO.
In fact, with Leliana and her stories she could tell, you DID do just that.
The wheel adds no more options than a dialog tree with "more options" as one of the selections does.

All the wheel does is present a more graphic presentation with simplified "kinda gonna say this" sample text and ease of use for game controllers.
Whether one thinks that good or bad is probably no more than personal preference.

Narreneth wrote...
I think the problem some people are expressing is that they don't like the paraphrase system, and that sometimes the intent of the paraphrase isn't clear. I think the icon system we use (an icon is represented in the middle of the dialogue wheel when we need to express a particular intent, such as "Intimidate" or "Flirt" or "Combat") mitigates that to an extent... but I don't doubt there are people for whom that's simply never going to work. You are also correct, however, that there's no point in assigning problems to the system that simply don't exist... nor in assuming that the style used in Mass Effect's narrative structure will be exactly the same in DA2 simply because we use the same system (though what else do you have to compare it to for the moment?).

The paraphrase system is annoying, IMO, beyond the "can't quite tell what they mean by this one" syndrome - though that IS a big deal for many people (and it was for me until I got the groove of ME1 early on of "Upper right is this, lower right is that" and I simply stopped caring what the text said and stategically picked my responses based on where they were on the wheel)...
though that brings me to another game you can compare to.  Alpha Protocol has the refined process with the "intents" being all you choose for the most part.  So there's another comparison.
You could also look back to a GREAT computer game from the late 90's, Westwood's Blade Runner.  Great story, multiple endings, and a dialog system based on "moods."  I like BioWare and ME, but the whole "choice in story" existed before them.

My problem with voice and wheel has less to do with less choice one the game in rolling and much more with less choice in designing my character and making it "as much my own as possible" (before we start that fallacious "illusion of choice" nonsense again.)

[AlanC9]

MerinTB wrote...
All the wheel does is present a more graphic presentation with simplified "kinda gonna say this" sample text and ease of use for game controllers.

I wouldn't say that's all. It also prevents Bio from having to shorten dialog responses to fit the screen and avoid the dreaded "wall of text", and keeps the player from having to read a full text only to hear the same text spoken again an instant later.

[Addai]

CybAnt1 wrote...

The answer to the question is yes, and was why some people were against voicing for the protagonist prior to it becoming a feature in DA2.

Here's the bottom line, simple economics. Voice actors are paid by the hour. The longer the lines they have to recite, and the more lines they have to recite, the more they have to be paid.

Like you say, it's simple math.  The devs said that the VO's for Hawke are in the studio right now.  That is an entire block of expense that wasn't needed for Origins.  Add to that all the processing for the PC audio, and none of it is necessary to make a great game as Origins showed.  So a shorter game, with less content, and less replayability.  What a waste.  You can be sure the price is not going to come down, though.

Modifié par Addai67, 20 juillet 2010 - 07:05 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

CybAnt1 wrote...
Here's the bottom line, simple economics. Voice actors are paid by the hour. The longer the lines they have to recite, and the more lines they have to recite, the more they have to be paid.

For obvious economic reasons, a voiced protagonist will have shorter, fewer dialogue options over a non-voiced one. The game's budget will demand it.

Compare Shepard's actual lines to the Warden's.  The Warden has much shorter lines, and word for word, fewer words to say in each conversation with party NPCs.  If we're counting words, Shepard actually ends up with longer dialogue options (talking about what's actually spoken, not the prompts).  That makes sense--people don't just give one-sentence responses in dialogue the way the Warden does.  

Now, given that each of Shepard's prompts has a unique line and (usually) elicits a unique response from the NPC, and a lot of the Warden's lines elicit the same NPC response, there's very little difference in amount of content.  Conversation for conversation, the Warden and Shepard have comparable dialogue quantity and dialogue choices.

The difference is that the Warden has more conversations total.  You get about twice the conversations per party member in DA:O compared to Mass Effect 2, not to mention ambient party banter, interjections, etc.  That's where the content difference comes up--in quantity of conversations, not in choice/amount of dialogue per conversation.

As for budgetary reasons, I would completely agree--assuming DA and DA2 have the same budget, which is quite an assumption to make.  Given the amount of money EA, BioWare, and Lucas are willing to pour into TOR, I wouldn't be surprised if this game has a bigger budget than the last, especially considering how well DA:O did on the market.

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[BallaZs]

langelog wrote...

Nope, I'm sure there will still be good, neutral, evil, etc. dialogue. Then again, voicing all that dialogue would take time for so many types of choices, you could be right, but I wouldn't care, DA2 is gonna kick some serious ass!

Agreed=]

[KalDurenik]

Im afraid mainly that the famous "Bioware face" will happen.



Where it look like the players are dolls just moving their mouth.



Kinda like what happens when you have the "animation" people working on the othe side of the world. While the VO people are at another place.

[Fangirl17]

I dont know, Im kinda warming up to the idea of a voiced PC. We'll just have to see how it goes. I think Bioware will suprise us though ^^ We can only hope.

[Jestina]

VA kills games for the most part just due to the fact that it costs so much that they have to sacrifice a load of game contents. I'd rather have content then a shell of a game with VA.

[hxx7y]

Fangirl17 wrote...

I dont know, Im kinda warming up to the idea of a voiced PC. We'll just have to see how it goes. I think Bioware will suprise us though ^^ We can only hope.

im not warming up to it im pefectly happy with it the dialouge wheel and voiced PC are a great fit for a 3rd person narrative.
DA:O told t he story of the blight it was appropriate to have the PC be a voiceless vessel for the player to posess like a fade demon possessing someone to see the world if you will excuse euphamism / reference as a game style this option offers maximum immersion but minimal charicterisation and limits the extent to which the charicters can interact with one another.

(All the below paragraph is based on or a combination of speculation or the scant details we have recieved)

as far as i can tell the charicter Hawke is not only the main charicter DA2 he/she is also the main story arc and in this context the dialogue wheel and voice actor is indeed crucial to the experience.
there a a few tweaks that could be made for instance in the mass effect games if i wanted a paragon run of the game during dialouge sequences i could hold the stick up and to the right and tap A whenever the wheel appeared.
this system is inherrantly flawed for the games as thedas was presented as a realm of moral ambiguity where you had to really think about the responses you choose to give.
If i may quote nicolas cage from the film lord of war "there are three types of basic arms deal, white being legal, black being illegal and my personal favorite colour grey. Sometimes i made the deals so convouluted it was hard for me to work out if they were on the level..."
now the dialouge wheel would function well if the responses appeared in a randomised position on the wheel so you cant just "hold the stick up and to the right"...

the two systems of dialouge interface are appropriate to the style of narative they are supporting a voiceless PC with a list of word for word responses fits perfectly into a first person narative of DAO the dialouge wheel and voice acting (as proven by mass effect) fits great into 3rd person narative.

before the release of DA:O i felt a bit like Louis from Anne Rices vampire chronicles in 18th century new orleans feeding on RPG rats sustaining me but not satisfying me then DA:O was released and it was everything i wanted in an RPG and more I will most likely be purchasing, playing and enjoying DA2 assuming no great catastrophy.
i remain hopefull that "old School" firstperson RPG's are not dead indeed the fact that i desire one proves that there is a market for one we shall have to wait and see...

(for all you People who follow the TLDR way of life bioware smart company id imagine theyd use the dialouge system appropriate to narrative structure for the game theyre making)

Modifié par hxx7y, 20 juillet 2010 - 11:18 .

[Telum101]

If there's going to be the same amount of dialogue options like all the 'defenders' are saying, then I think DA2 will be considerably shorter than Origins. There's just no way Hawke can have 4+ entirely different responses (like most DA:O conversations) for every conversation without the game being shortened.

[Grommash94]

Telum101 wrote...

If there's going to be the same amount of dialogue options like all the 'defenders' are saying, then I think DA2 will be considerably shorter than Origins. There's just no way Hawke can have 4+ entirely different responses (like most DA:O conversations) for every conversation without the game being shortened.

I think it depends on how much they were able to save from cutting out Origins from the game, and how much money they are actually putting into the game.

Only time will tell. I am hoping for a 50 hour game....my Origins playthroughs, where I did not not skip a thing, including reloading after dying/making the wrong decision...all were around 60ish hours each.

Modifié par Grommash94, 20 juillet 2010 - 11:21 .

[hxx7y]

Grommash94 wrote...

Telum101 wrote...

If there's going to be the same amount of dialogue options like all the 'defenders' are saying, then I think DA2 will be considerably shorter than Origins. There's just no way Hawke can have 4+ entirely different responses (like most DA:O conversations) for every conversation without the game being shortened.

I think it depends on how much they were able to save from cutting out Origins from the game, and how much money they are actually putting into the game.

Only time will tell. I am hoping for a 50 hour game....my Origins playthroughs, where I did not not skip a thing, including reloading after dying/making the wrong decision...all were around 60ish hours each.

Anything less than 30 hours I will consider a dissapointment.

[jjbens]

i hope i get to make a choice in the way i want to say in and not some dumb saying

[WilliamShatner]

Telum101 wrote...

If there's going to be the same amount of dialogue options like all the 'defenders' are saying, then I think DA2 will be considerably shorter than Origins. There's just no way Hawke can have 4+ entirely different responses (like most DA:O conversations) for every conversation without the game being shortened.

I would imagine given the huge success of DA:O that DA2 will have a higher budget than DA:O.  They're not going to have the same amount to spend and have to cut stuff out because they have voiced PCs.

[jjbens]

im nervous about this less hours less choices and less cut scenes how is this helping the game

[GreenSoda]

hxx7y wrote...
Anything less than 30 hours I will consider a dissapointment.

I would consider 30 hours a dissapointment. That would put DA2 in the region of ME / JE -both games (-series) are imo too short for a RPG. Some things (e.g. party-NPC character development) just don't work too well in an overly short timeframe.

Actually, a short(ish) game would probably be the only *real* critic point that would make me not want to get DA2.

I still do hope, though, that cutting the origins & choosable races gave them enough leverage to still make DA2 into a game with nearly the length of DA:O -if perhaps a bit shorter. Just not ME short.

Please.

Modifié par GreenSoda, 20 juillet 2010 - 05:10 .

[jjbens]

anything less than 70 hours would be dissapointing

[jjbens]

new game wheel for conversation is going to dissapionting to fans

[Zanderat]

jjbens wrote...

im sure its going to be good they did a good job im ME 2

Let's hope it is better........

[In Exile]

Telum101 wrote...

If there's going to be the same amount of dialogue options like all the 'defenders' are saying, then I think DA2 will be considerably shorter than Origins. There's just no way Hawke can have 4+ entirely different responses (like most DA:O conversations) for every conversation without the game being shortened.

Yes there is. There would just be less side conversations, and not everyone takes part in those. For example, I did not speak with the guards at all, and did not trigger the injured NPC with darkspawn blood in Ostagar until my 5th playthrough.

If you see a cost in DA2, it will be these side conversations that suffer, not the critical path. Now, you might say that is making the game shorter... but not everyone saw these paths and conversations, so it depends on the player whether or not it actually turns out shorter.