89 réponses à ce sujet

[jjbens]

not good that hawkes story is longer than the wardens and dao 2 is a shorter games

[joriandrake]

jjbens wrote...

not good that hawkes story is longer than the wardens and dao 2 is a shorter games

Okay, I didn't understand this.... explaaain?

[StingingVelvet]

David Gaider wrote...
I think the problem some people are expressing is that they don't like the paraphrase system, and that sometimes the intent of the paraphrase isn't clear.

Agreed, and the thing is that this is more a problem with the QUALITY of the paraphrase than it is the paraphrase system.  I would never suggest a change in the system for ME3, but I would like more care put into paraphrases that resemble the outcome better.

[jjbens]

joriandrake wrote...

jjbens wrote...

not good that hawkes story is longer than the wardens and dao 2 is a shorter games

Okay, I didn't understand this.... explaaain?

ok i mean that people have said there is going to be less game play hours for dragon age 2 this worrys me because hawkes story is a 10 year span and the wardens is only 2 years.

[Saibh]

Kordaris wrote...

Yes.Already we know there will be less choice. If you have no VO it is easier to enter more text into the game. For any good roleplayer this won't be a problem.

Seriously, you're getting into spam/harrassment territory. You just barge into every thread repeating the same things over and over and over. Your fickle idea about what "choice" is has been iterated and reiterated several times and several different threads. We get it.

[jjbens]

wow

[Nighteye2]

David Gaider wrote...
I think the problem some people are expressing is that they don't like the paraphrase system, and that sometimes the intent of the paraphrase isn't clear. I think the icon system we use (an icon is represented in the middle of the dialogue wheel when we need to express a particular intent, such as "Intimidate" or "Flirt" or "Combat") mitigates that to an extent... but I don't doubt there are people for whom that's simply never going to work.

Exactly. The paraphrase system, even with the intent icons, still allows Hawke to say and do other things than the player expects when selecting a dialogue choice, thus breaking immersion. I'd rather have Hawke read out loud the exact phrase I selected for him to say... as would some others who share that preference.

Would it really be so much extra work to include that option, full-text dialogue choices for those who prefer that?

[Brockololly]

Nighteye2 wrote...

Would it really be so much extra work to include that option, full-text dialogue choices for those who prefer that?

In some other thread, it was suggested that if you right clicked the dialogue paraphrase it could expand out such that you could read the whole dialogue of what Hawke would say. Having something like that for at least the first sentence or so of what Hawke actually says would be nice. But I highly doubt that would happen...

[Vandrayke]

probably. but I will care more about the choices

Fewer, better choices > more, empty choices

Modifié par Vandrayke, 25 juillet 2010 - 09:05 .

[Solaris Paradox]

In the best of all possible worlds, there would be a number of different voice performances for every line the PC could speak, and the player would have chosen which of those voices would be theirs at the start of the game--the alternative, the "generic hero's voice," is quite bland by comparison. The paraphrases certainly don't help--the obvious effect is that the "role-play" aspect is undermined by the character's attitude not only being defined by the game itself, but not even shining through in the dialogue choices. Said attitude is either something likely to run counter to the character the player attempts to be, or so flat an generic that it defeats the point of having a voice for the PC to begin with. See Shepard's unrelenting "Commander" tone for a decent example of the latter.

In such cases, imagining the character's dialogue yourself would potentially provide more immersion, but then there's the problem that the majority of mainstream gaming people just don't have enough imagination to see the charm in that. So people who prefer it wind up left out in the cold sometimes.

That said, like anything, the paraphrase system can be done better at times and worse at others. It remains to be seen how Dragon Age 2 will handle this system. The cinematic advantages are also nothing to sneeze at, which in some ways makes up for the immersion drop.

EDIT: Something else that's something of a pitfall with this sort of system is that the choices of dialogue can't be *too* diverse. They all have to fit one voice, and sound consistent no matter what combination of choices the player may make across the entirety of a game, otherwise the immersion factor takes an even bigger hit due to the player character's personality being disjointed.

Modifié par Solaris Paradox, 25 juillet 2010 - 09:09 .

[Vandrayke]

In such cases, imagining the character's dialogue yourself would potentially provide more immersion, but then there's the problem that the majority of mainstream gaming people just don't have enough imagination to see the charm in that. So people who prefer it wind up left out in the cold sometimes.

lol it has nothing to do with imagination... it is just jarring to a lot of people when everyone talks out loud except the character you move around for the whole game. 

[Vandrayke]

At any rate, a specific example from DAO was when as a Cousland, your parents had been killed, and there was this whole cinematic experience introducing you to Ostagar, with the map moving and the narrator and everything, and then all the characters talking, and then you get to pick from a list of crap your character won't say. Really hurt my suspension of disbelief. I would rather have had fewer response options that were voiced... it would have flowed so much better. To me, anyways.

[In Exile]

To add to that, when you mention your father, Cailing goes "WTF, Duncan - why did that line suggest something negative about the state of old man Cousland," and then Duncan gives the narration for Highever. Cinematically, Duncan and Cailin drive the scene and Duncan speaks for you. That's something that I dislike about non-VO - it makes you a bit player.

[Vandrayke]

lol for sure. It must have been awkward to have to write dialogue around restrictions like that.

[Blessed Silence]

Not sure how you mean less choice.

I mean they already stated you will be Human, so that is less choice there.  You can play as male or female so I see myself sitting in ME already.

I personally enjoy listening to the entire conversations that happened in ME, the inflexion of tone and body reactions etc.

Less choices on how we see the character talk perhaps (accent, tone etc) but I cannot see this really affecting what he/she does in the game.

[Cadarin]

CybAnt1 wrote...

The answer to the question is yes, and was why some people were against voicing for the protagonist prior to it becoming a feature in DA2.

Here's the bottom line, simple economics. Voice actors are paid by the hour. The longer the lines they have to recite, and the more lines they have to recite, the more they have to be paid.

For obvious economic reasons, a voiced protagonist will have shorter, fewer dialogue options over a non-voiced one. The game's budget will demand it.

This change is inevitable, regardless of whether a wheel or a menu is the mechanic for prodding the voiced protagonist to recite their lines.

In a sense, it's kind of why the interface is a secondary debate; voicing itself is also going to cause a change no matter what.

Except the first game was already voice acted.  If you believe that the first game contained plenty of dialogue choices, then why wouldn't the sequel?  Every line of written dialogue that your main character in DA:O could say required a voiced response from one or more characters within the game.  If Bioware was all that concerned about paying for voiceovers, I doubt they'd have included so much of it in the first place. 

I don't know how many more hours of voiceacting will be required for the main character, but I doubt it's a very large percentage of the total voice work.  Even in ME, Shepherd doesn't speak nearly as much as those around him do.

That being said, I actually prefer the silent protagonist.  I know it seems akward for some people, but for whatever reason I just feel closer to my character when I read his lines in my head. 

[17thknight]

langelog wrote...

Faust1979 wrote...

how many choices were there in dragon age really? some of those choices didn't really matter in the long run like killing the son or saving him.

True, though we had more dialogue choices, most had the same result as others.

Wrong.

It's undeniable that a voiced character results in less choice.

How about that ELF or DWARF you'll be playing in DA2?

Oh wait, that's right...

So much for "more choice".

[17thknight]

David Gaider wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
I was talking about DA:O whare I thought they did. The end result is the same, but that doesn't mean you don't get different dialogue. There's usually at least a few words or a sentence or two that are different, depending on your choice.

And it is exactly the same in DA2.

jon372 wrote...
Huh, well unless theres ''Investigation'' like
ME, then you could have as much as 8

There is. So you have 5 options on the main wheel plus "Investigate", which brings you to another wheel hub where you have up to 5 more options (plus "Return"). So we do, in fact, have the ability to put up more options than we did in DAO. We're not always going to use all of those, of course (any more than we did all six in DAO) but in terms of the number of choices we put up we are not limited by the wheel at all.

Narreneth wrote...
If you don't like the VO for your own
reasons, fine.  Slapping rationales on it that aren't true is completely
pointless, though.

I think the problem some people are expressing is that they don't like the paraphrase system, and that sometimes the intent of the paraphrase isn't clear. I think the icon system we use (an icon is represented in the middle of the dialogue wheel when we need to express a particular intent, such as "Intimidate" or "Flirt" or "Combat") mitigates that to an extent... but I don't doubt there are people for whom that's simply never going to work. You are also correct, however, that there's no point in assigning problems to the system that simply don't exist... nor in assuming that the style used in Mass Effect's narrative structure will be exactly the same in DA2 simply because we use the same system (though what else do you have to compare it to for the moment?).

So....cut and paste the EXACT same mass effect dialogue garbage.

Whoopy.

Way to fail in the creativity department.

[In Exile]

17thknight wrote...
Wrong.

It's undeniable that a voiced character results in less choice.

How about that ELF or DWARF you'll be playing in DA2?

Oh wait, that's right...

So much for "more choice".

I know right? It's just like how in KoTOR, where you didn't have a voice, you weren't forced to be a human, and you could be a Twilek, or Bothan, or Bith, or...

I'm glad we have KoTOR as evidence of how non-VO always lets you choose race, and it's totally not a factor fo the writers wanting more control over the specific narrative of the player.

[mopotter]

I was very worried when I first heard about ME but after I played it I like the way it works.



My only worry is that somewhere the tones will get mixed up and I'll see another Shepard/Jacob paragon option misunderstanding.



But I'm keeping the faith.

[Nighteye2]

Cadarin wrote...
That being said, I actually prefer the silent protagonist.  I know it seems akward for some people, but for whatever reason I just feel closer to my character when I read his lines in my head. 

You're not the only one. <_<

That said, though, I'm more bothered by the paraphrases than by Hawke being voiced.

[jjbens]

i give my chracter voice when i read the line what happens if i dont like the voice they give him

[Bobbyj0]

is there gonna be more than one male and female voice option or is there just going to be one of both?

[SteveGarbage]

I still have a hard time understanding why people have such an issue with the dialogue wheel, although this thread has helped clear it up a bit for me. Having played Mass Effect, yes, there were times when I selected a certain option because the paraphrase looked like what I wanted, only to have the response turn out to be not what I had in mind.

Although ME is voiced and that problem comes up, I ran across it a couple times in DA:O too. For example, when talking with Alistair and he's talking about how the Chantry hooks the templars on lyrium so I said, "Sounds like an excellent method of control" and watched Alistairs influence tank. I didn't mean it as like a "Haha, stupid templars" I meant it more like a "Poor templars on the Chantry's leash" but that obviously wasn't how the line was coded.

My understanding is the little delivery pic inside the wheel could help to clear up a lot of those issues even without extended paraphrases. If the paraphrase maybe isn't 100 percent clear but I look at the delivery and see that maybe it looks snarky, that could help.

I'm not expecting the VO or the dialogue to be perfect, but I anticipate it to be up there in the 95 percentile of what I expect.

Modifié par SteveGarbage, 27 juillet 2010 - 03:41 .