Aller au contenu

Photo

No good deed.


217 réponses à ce sujet

#76
The Edge

The Edge
  • Members
  • 612 messages

David Gaider wrote...

MoSa09 wrote...
Now when i think about a situation where something like that has happened, why does the Dark Ritual almost instantly comes to mind?


I'll have to assume you don't understand what I'm referring to by the "gotcha!".

A "gotcha!" would be everything in the game telling you the results of your action will be X but then Y happens instead. It could be an interesting plot twist or a frustrating one depending on how involved in the outcome the player feels. If they don't feel involved in what happened, they've lost agency.

The Dark Ritual was offered to your character and you made a decision-- and the outcome of your decision was exactly as advertised. Not a "gotcha!" moment in the slightest, unless you intend to extend the definition to "I didn't like it."


Yeah. If you had a romance with Morrigan, the dark ritual would've been the "NO DON'T LEAVE!" moment. I just felt miserable after that...

#77
ICevoL

ICevoL
  • Members
  • 202 messages
While it's an optional side quest, you can certainly get hit by an unintended consequence of a seemingly "all good" choice in Origins...

DAO SPOILER WARNING....

Someone already mentioned the Chantry brother, but here's the one that shocked me when I saw it in the epilogue.  I had a character with no use for the Chantry, so she never even spoke to Brother Burkel in the commons.  However, when a cute little dwarf named Dagna popped up and asked my PC to be a messenger to the Circle of Magi and ask for admittance to study, she thought, "Why not?  What harm could it do?"

The epilogue informed me that the harm of this innocent act was apostates flocking to a new Circle (outside Chantry supervision) within Orzammar, which (like Brother Burkel's side quest) made the Chantry consider an Exalted March on Orzammar.  I think this case was a much less predictable "bad outcome to a good act" than the other side quest (the Shaper even alludes to a possible issue when you ask him about it).  It certainly caught me by surprise when it happened! 

Just my 2 cents, of course Posted Image

(edited to fix wonky formatting...)

Modifié par ICevoL, 20 juillet 2010 - 06:33 .


#78
Guest_SirShreK_*

Guest_SirShreK_*
  • Guests

ICevoL wrote...

While it's an optional side quest, you can certainly get hit by an unintended consequence of a seemingly "all good" choice in Origins...

DAO SPOILER WARNING....

Someone already mentioned the Chantry brother, but here's the one that shocked me when I saw it in the epilogue.  I had a character with no use for the Chantry, so she never even spoke to Brother Burkel in the commons.  However, when a cute little dwarf named Dagna popped up and asked my PC to be a messenger to the Circle of Magi and ask for admittance to study, she thought, "Why not?  What harm could it do?"

The epilogue informed me that the harm of this innocent act was apostates flocking to a new Circle (outside Chantry supervision) within Orzammar, which (like Brother Burkel's side quest) made the Chantry consider an Exalted March on Orzammar.  I think this case was a much less predictable "bad outcome to a good act" than the other side quest (the Shaper even alludes to a possible issue when you ask him about it).  It certainly caught me by surprise when it happened! 

Just my 2 cents, of course Posted Image

(edited to fix wonky formatting...)


Perhaps it s the rarity of "Unforseen consequnces" (Freeman gags) that is the thing we should be happy about. Dagna incidence then counts as a rare exception (but one with large consequences of course)...

Modifié par SirShreK, 20 juillet 2010 - 06:39 .


#79
Loc'n'lol

Loc'n'lol
  • Members
  • 3 594 messages
Bah, the chantry merely needs to make up an excuse to "consider" an exalted march on the 'infidels'. :P

#80
Riona45

Riona45
  • Members
  • 3 158 messages
My mage PC asked for the "free the Circle" boon from Anora, so when Dagna's epilogue came up, it mentioned how she furthered knowledge of magic, but didn't include the part about the apostate tower and possible Exalted March.



Not that I don't think a tower in Orzammar is a cool idea.

#81
ICevoL

ICevoL
  • Members
  • 202 messages

Riona45 wrote...

My mage PC asked for the "free the Circle" boon from Anora, so when Dagna's epilogue came up, it mentioned how she furthered knowledge of magic, but didn't include the part about the apostate tower and possible Exalted March.

Not that I don't think a tower in Orzammar is a cool idea.


My PC that did this was a Cousland, so asking for the "free the Circle" boon as a Mage changes the slide?  Very cool that the Devs accounted for that level of detail on such a small side quest.  I'll have to remember that for any Mage PCs.  Thanks!

With the personality of one of the Mage PCs I'm playing, she would be thrilled to see an "Apostate Haven" in Orzammar...Posted Image

#82
AlanC9

AlanC9
  • Members
  • 35 781 messages

David Gaider wrote...
A "gotcha!" would be everything in the game telling you the results of your action will be X but then Y happens instead. It could be an interesting plot twist or a frustrating one depending on how involved in the outcome the player feels. If they don't feel involved in what happened, they've lost agency.


You can still use a Xanatos Gambit, right? The heroes do get a pseudo-victory, and so they preserve agency even if they're failing in the larger sense. Come to think of it,  I suppose the raid on Howe's estate already qualifies.

#83
R.U.N

R.U.N
  • Members
  • 86 messages
The DR would've been a ''gotcha!'' moment if Morrigan simply slept with the Warden, not telling him of the possible consequences, left him and no one died killing the Archdemon.

Post-celebration he gets a letter stating:



''Thank you



Bye



Morrigan''



THAT would've been a ''gotcha!'' moment.

#84
bjdbwea

bjdbwea
  • Members
  • 3 251 messages
What's with the constant want for "grey" and "dark"? What's wrong with playing a hero who saves the world? And why would you want to "punish" players for doing acts of good? They are already often "punished", for example if they refuse payment, they obviously don't have the money.

#85
Vandicus

Vandicus
  • Members
  • 2 426 messages

R.U.N wrote...

The DR would've been a ''gotcha!'' moment if Morrigan simply slept with the Warden, not telling him of the possible consequences, left him and no one died killing the Archdemon.
Post-celebration he gets a letter stating:

''Thank you

Bye

Morrigan''

THAT would've been a ''gotcha!'' moment.



If we were never told until the plot point of the Old God child coming up, we'd all call it a corny and stupid plot twist.

First, we'd criticize them for having everyone live, even though we were promised that a Warden would have to die to kill the Archdemon, and call Bioware out for leading a player on, and then being too much of a wuss to kill anyone.

Second, when we heard of the Old God baby, we'd call it a cheap cop-out to explain their earlier idiocy and an arbitrary new "Great Evil" for the Warden to face off against with the overused father-son trope.

#86
soteria

soteria
  • Members
  • 3 307 messages

Take the choice with Connor. I would have liked if the choice to go after the Circle of Mage would have resulted in failure. It wouldn't have been about tricking you; it would simply have been about being selfish. Sometimes you can't save everyone, and if you try, you should fail.

If you saved Redcliffe, I think there should be repricussions for the Blight. Save the individual in front of you, but suffer the consequence of the broader damage.


I would agree for Connor's case, but in the grand scheme of things staying the night to save Redcliffe isn't a great amount of time lost. In general, though, yes, it seems like it's too easy to "save everyone" in Dragon Age. Take the last battle, for example. IIRC the game tries to make it sound like darkspawn are actively destroying the city and you need to hurry and defeat the Archdemon. Or maybe you need to kill those generals in the market and elf districts. What's the right choice?! It doesn't seem to actually matter--but it should have.

And by "no way of knowing" I don't necessarily mean they need to be told-- just "is it reasonable to assume that this might happen?" It's the events that come out of left field, that pull the rug out from under the player, that you need to be careful of. In small doses it might work, or perhaps even in a situation where the player can at least do something to address their reversal of fortune, but otherwise I consider it to be something that sounds good in theory but doesn't work well in practice-- at least, not in a game where the player and the designer are working under an implied understanding that a degree of agency is required even though the designer is the one calling all the shots.


Yes, but wouldn't it have been easy enough to have a couple NPC's tell you, "Hey, things are pretty serious here. No telling what could happen if you run off to the Circle to get help, cause that's a week's journey. There's a chance things might destabilize here." Then, when you come back, maybe everyone is dead except Isolde, Eamon, and Connor, and Eamon's forces in the final battle are weaker.

As long as you create the expectation that taking risks can have consequences, and follow up on that, I don't think it's a problem to punish good deeds (sometimes). I'm currently reading the Codex Alera series, and I've found that over and over again characters will get into ridiculously impossible situations where by all rights they should be dead, and yet, they survive unscathed. As a reader, I begin to roll my eyes at the idea of a certain or near-death situation when an author destroys his own credibility like that. Unfortunately, the same thing is too common in video games. Gamers are completely unafraid of dangerous situations because they KNOW they won't suffer any sort of long-term harm. ME2 was the exception that proves the rule, since it wasn't really *that* difficult to make sure everyone survived the suicide mission.

#87
Guest_SirShreK_*

Guest_SirShreK_*
  • Guests

bjdbwea wrote...

What's with the constant want for "grey" and "dark"? What's wrong with playing a hero who saves the world? And why would you want to "punish" players for doing acts of good? They are already often "punished", for example if they refuse payment, they obviously don't have the money.


This.

But the real world tragically has Dark moments no matter how white you want it.... Dark fantasy = Similar to real world.. not necessarily dystopean.

#88
In Exile

In Exile
  • Members
  • 28 738 messages

soteria wrote...

I would agree for Connor's case, but in the grand scheme of things staying the night to save Redcliffe isn't a great amount of time lost. In general, though, yes, it seems like it's too easy to "save everyone" in Dragon Age. Take the last battle, for example. IIRC the game tries to make it sound like darkspawn are actively destroying the city and you need to hurry and defeat the Archdemon. Or maybe you need to kill those generals in the market and elf districts. What's the right choice?! It doesn't seem to actually matter--but it should have.


I was trying to be illustrative - I agree that in practice, the day you spent at Redcliffe shouldn't change anything.

Gamers are completely unafraid of dangerous situations because they KNOW they won't suffer any sort of long-term harm. ME2 was the exception that proves the rule, since it wasn't really *that* difficult to make sure everyone survived the suicide mission.


One design I hate is the mutually exclusive choice - but I think ME2 should have used it. If it was a suicide mission, there should have been microcosms throughout the assault on the collectors of it. Two objects, three teams, but not all of them can make it through. That sort of thing.

#89
bjdbwea

bjdbwea
  • Members
  • 3 251 messages

SirShreK wrote...

But the real world tragically has Dark moments no matter how white you want it.


Indeed. And that's exactly why many people enjoy their movies - and games - to be "unrealistic" in the way that the good side wins, and good deeds are appreciated and not "punished". I would like if it stays that way. Especially if the "dark" and/or "grey" writing feels as forced and artificial as it did most of the time in ME 2. Let's face it, the "hero saves the world" story is easier to write, so why not stick with it? It always works.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 20 juillet 2010 - 08:07 .


#90
Riona45

Riona45
  • Members
  • 3 158 messages

ICevoL wrote...


My PC that did this was a Cousland, so asking for the "free the Circle" boon as a Mage changes the slide?


Apparently it does.

Very cool that the Devs accounted for that level of detail on such a small side quest.  I'll have to remember that for any Mage PCs.  Thanks!



You're welcome.  :)

#91
Addai

Addai
  • Members
  • 25 850 messages

MoSa09 wrote...

tybbiesniffer wrote...

I think they gave us some forewarning that this wasn't necessarily a "good" choice.  Morrigan tells you herself that it's blood magic, I believe.  Don't get me wrong, I like Morrigan and her cynicsim.  She's a good moral compass; if she disapproves I know I've done something right.  But would I trust her?  Never.


That was not what i had in mind, i wasn't talking about the consequences. The whole ritual itself just came out of nowhere, and there was nothing you could do about it, she would leave either way.

Morrigan does warn you, at least for a Warden in a romance with her.  You could also put this under "if you thought the scary witch was trying to help you out of the goodness of her withered heart, then it's your own damn fault."  Heh.

Personally, I hope the DR aftermath proves to be a different sort of gotcha- something many assume is evil but turns out to save the world, or close to it.

#92
Haexpane

Haexpane
  • Members
  • 2 711 messages

aberdash wrote...

 This just reeks of typical fantasy and does nothing to set itself apart from DnD or other fantasy settings.

I'd like to see bioware included choices that while they may seem good or evil have the opposite outcome. 


Considering there are almost ZERO D&D party based RPGs out there,  I welcome D&D style videogames.

If you want the whole "You picked the GOOD choice but it turned out EVIL in the end LULZ"  Mass Effect  has you covered

#93
highcastle

highcastle
  • Members
  • 1 963 messages
I understand the need to spare the player from those "gotcha" moments, as Mr. Gaider called them. However, I do think there should be consequences for your actions in a game advertised as a dark fantasy. Let's take the Redcliffe situation, for instance. At first it seems like you can either kill Connor or kill Isolde. My first play of the game, that's indeed what I thought. I got as far as Alistair suggesting we go to the mages, but then Teagan cautioned against it for the time it might cost. What might the abomination do while we were gone? I thought the whole village might be slaughtered, or at least Eamon and his family. It was only on a second playthrough when I tested this option I learned it resulted in an unambiguously happy outcome. It almost felt like a letdown. Allowing Isolde to sacrifice herself because I didn't think there was another way and because my character felt killing a child was abhorrent, that was powerful stuff. Learning of the third option almost cheapened that sacrifice.

Now, don't get me wrong. I love Origins. I think it's one of the best games out there. And I know I'm possibly in the minority who prefers grit and realism over happy endings. My mother chides me about whenever we see talk movies. I like bittersweet endings, she prefers something sweet and optimistic since life can be bittersweet all on its own. But I've always felt outcomes that require some amount of sacrifice are the most poignant. That's why I like the way Origins as a whole ends. There's no absolutely, unambiguously happy ending. You die, you send someone else to die in your place, or you engage in a ritual of questionable morality. Very grey choices here. I love it. Now more of these choices should be seeded throughout the main game.

Going back to Redcliffe, it's possible for Teagan or the PC to mention that going to the Mages Tower is risky because it would mean leaving Connor unchecked. And yet there are no consequences for this action. It would've been more effective to return to Redcliffe with the mages in tow and find that Connor slaughtered Teagan or Isolde or Murdoch. Someone. It had been suggested that leaving him would be dangerous, so it wouldn't have been a "gotcha" moment. And it would've kept with the theme of risk and sacrifice.

Again, on the whole I loved Origins. I nitpick out of love.

#94
Saibh

Saibh
  • Members
  • 8 071 messages
I agree it makes the game seem richer and more complicated when not every good deed results in a good result--a plans awry-type deal.

But at the same time, and this has been mentioned in bits all over, generally a "good" choice is often altruistic and the "bad" choice is the selfish, greedy ones. A good person forsakes reward or self-gain...when I play a good character it's enough to hear people commending me for the good I've done. That's pretty much your only reward half of the time. Essentially, all good deeds get punished--but in a perfectly reasonable way, since we had the choice to begin with.

By taking a lot of "ha ha ha look at the evil you've unintentionally caused!" two things happen (and I'm conjecturing based on what I know of DA and regular moral-choices games--I could very well be proved wrong in DA2):

1. The player doesn't take that route again, since you can only be surprised once--going for the neutral route is probably the best option. Especially since there's no morality meter (which I think is great for this game), you can even take evil options that you know result in good things and often you end up getting the best possible result through metagaming.

2. The good character never gets any reward for doing anything. They don't get the selfish reward, and they don't get the praise and good results we worked for. This gets old.

Modifié par Saibh, 20 juillet 2010 - 08:25 .


#95
Haexpane

Haexpane
  • Members
  • 2 711 messages

Saibh wrote...
 

2. The good character never gets any reward for doing anything. They don't get the selfish reward, and they don't get the praise and good results we worked for. This gets old.


Indeed, even Force Points in KOTOR became meaningless in KOTOR 2 as being heavy in either side of the force was negated by the fact that having balance from Dark and Light powers was better.

In my 2nd DOA campaign I still try and "play good" but I like to get rewards for my toon as well.  No more "you go ahead and keep the gold/item/etc..."   I need lewts! Piles and piles of lewts!

#96
soteria

soteria
  • Members
  • 3 307 messages

Saibh wrote..

1. The player doesn't take that route again, since you can only be surprised once--going for the neutral route is probably the best option. Especially since there's no morality meter (which I think is great for this game), you can even take evil options that you know result in good things and often you end up getting the best possible result through metagaming.


Sure, but that's how metagaming works. If a player is willing to make OOC choices because they like the results, they'll do that regardless of what the choice entails.

In Exile wrote...

I was trying to be illustrative - I agree that in practice, the day you spent at Redcliffe shouldn't change anything.


On the other hand, though, this is a case where I find that the character and the player are in conflict. From the player's POV, there is no danger of failure or death, and a number of rewards for staying: experience, loot, quests, and of course just the intangible "feel good." From the character's POV, things look different. There is substantial danger to self, little to no opportunity for personal gain, no certainty of saving everyone or anyone, no progress toward stopping the Blight, and what's exp, anyway? Yet, as a player, abandoning Redcliffe still makes me feel rotten because I *know* I could have saved those people.

#97
Kenrae

Kenrae
  • Members
  • 681 messages

bjdbwea wrote...

What's with the constant want for "grey" and "dark"? What's wrong with playing a hero who saves the world?


Basically, some of us have already played that story so many times that we're tired of it. Besides, we're not teens anymore and we prefer more complex, not simple, stories.
There's nothing wrong with playing the typical hero (even if so much maniqueism makes me cringe), I just want to play something different for a change. THere are myriads of "hero" games.

#98
Kenrae

Kenrae
  • Members
  • 681 messages

Haexpane wrote...
Considering there are almost ZERO D&D party based RPGs out there,  I welcome D&D style videogames.


No please, we already have too many of those. Why can't we have games based on other RPGs? Less hack&slashy, if I may be so bold to ask for.

#99
Guest_SirShreK_*

Guest_SirShreK_*
  • Guests

bjdbwea wrote...

SirShreK wrote...

But the real world tragically has Dark moments no matter how white you want it.


Indeed. And that's exactly why many people enjoy their movies - and games - to be "unrealistic" in the way that the good side wins, and good deeds are appreciated and not "punished". I would like if it stays that way. Especially if the "dark" and/or "grey" writing feels as forced and artificial as it did most of the time in ME 2. Let's face it, the "hero saves the world" story is easier to write, so why not stick with it? It always works.


I agree with you if what you mean is equivalent to saying that the world needs more Superman movies as compared to Batman movies.

The real problem in the art-form of literature is conflict. Without conflict one looses interest. I like to have my heroes win at the end and I do not mind them going through hoops on fire. What I would ask for is that if you want a game with Dark themes, please give us an ending which fits my Lawful Good character set AND still is happily ever after. In this respect I percieve the tragedy occurs in gaming world in two ways:

1. People assume that Lawful Good = Fanatic
2. Dark/Grey = Realistic and ending in a tragedy or NOT so happily ever after....

In the second they are right, if they compare it to reality.

But should that mean we put it into media all the time? Though my voice does not count a lot, I would say NO.

So for me,  there should have been an ending in DA:O where the hero kills the Archdemon and still lives without performing the dark ritual... But I guess the plot and the overall purpose of the Game went against it...

#100
soteria

soteria
  • Members
  • 3 307 messages

So for me, there should have been an ending in DA:O where the hero kills the Archdemon and still lives without performing the dark ritual... But I guess the plot and the overall purpose of the Game went against it...


You mean like if you bring Alistair or Loghain along as Riordan suggests?