217 réponses à ce sujet

[R.U.N]

Sappy69 wrote...

Put me down on the side of those that were disappointed that the DR was not as tempting as it could've been.  Maybe that wasn't the purpose, but to me the DR was clearly a selfish, if not outright evil and certainly irresponsible choice of action.

Let's break down what we know (in-character) when the DR offer is made.  You've got 3 Grey Wardens: the PC, Alistair/Loghain, and Riordan.  At this point, we don't know that Riordan is going to make his ill-advised attempt at soloing the archdemon and failing spectacularly (metagame-wise, I'm sure we all knew he was going to buy it the moment he explains that a GW has to die in order to defeat the archdemon, he may as well have worn a red-shirt, heh).  We just know that one of those 3 will need to die, and Riordan volunteers since it's tradition for the most senior GW to do it.  Besides, he's been around about as long as Duncan has and is probably close to his Calling anyway, so he doesn't have long to live regardless.

Morrigan makes the DR offer to both save your life and preserve the soul of an Old God.  However, it's only to *potentially* save your life at this point.  You're not even first in line to die (Riordan is) and you've still got another backup (Alistair/Loghain).  So at this point, any rational, thinking person is going to weigh the risk vs. reward of this offer.  Same way we evaluate stocks, or how far my poker hand can take me.

The rewards are that none of the 3 GW's has to die (even though one is going to die soon anyway), and now Morrigan has an Old God baby.  But, what are the pro's of this baby?  Will the Old God usher in a new era of peace?  Will it just be a normal baby with an awesome soul?  Will it have superpowers?  Will it transform into a dragon?  Does it even care about humanity?  We don't know any of this...no one does, not even Morrigan.

What's the risk?  Well, you might have fought tooth and nail all this time to stop a Blight just to have another Blight start again and risk the entire world...yay!  Based on what we know, how does the reward even remotely justify the risk?  Imagine if most of what you owned was a house, and someone told you "Would you like to make a bet with your house?  I won't tell you what you'll win, but if you lose, you lose your house!"

The DR decision becomes even less tempting if the other GW was Loghain instead of Alistair.  I know many players are attached to Alistair and imagine it may come down to a choice of letting yourself or Alistair die, but if it were Loghain?  He *deserves* to die, his entire purpose at being a GW is to die in service to them.  Now, you as the PC get to live, you don't worry about the risk of another Blight from the DR, and Loghain dies!  Everyone wins...

Don't get me wrong, I liked having the choice of the DR.  It gives more roleplaying opportunities for people of different moral spectrums.  But to paint it as a choice that "could be justified" by any rational, unselfish person is inaccurate.  It really wasn't hard for my first playthrough to reject that choice.  My character even romanced Morrigan and it still seemed creepy and shady.  I think the decision may have had more impact if the DR choice were made more tempting to good-aligned characters and less of a "good characters choose X, selfish characters choose Y, evil characters choose Z" situation.

As an example of a choice I did like which ties into the whole "shades of gray" thing, I really enjoyed the choice between Harrowmont and Bhelen.  It's more nuanced than the whole "support the good leader" vs. "support the bad leader" choice.  Instead, it's an opportunity to reflect on your character's philosophy.  Do you support the tyrannical, murdering scumbag who does good by his people, or do you support the honest, honorable leader who will maintain the status quo of a crumbling and corrupt society?  In my first playthrough, I initially supported Harrowmont, but after finding out what happens to Dwarven society in the epilogue, I wasn't so sure I made the right choice...maybe, maybe not.  Something which can make players question themselves and their decisions is always a powerful thing...something which the Bhelen/Harrowmont decision did well and the DR did not.  I hope to see more of this in DA2.

I wholeheartly agree.
On top of that it was Flemeth's plan to begin with and you might have killed her for whatever reason.
Telling Alistir or Loghain about the plan gives you a pretty good indication of just how wrong things could go......
it was tempting in my first playthrough though.
Either let Alistair the future king of Ferelden and the only person my Warden trusted die, or sacrifice yourself on a suicide mission without Alistair and Morrigan.
Considering how many times he already declined Morrigan's ''ideas'', I was suprised that she was suprised....if this was RL...well, what did you expect?

Modifié par R.U.N, 21 juillet 2010 - 11:19 .

[Ulicus]

In Exile wrote...

Fair enough.

In which case: there's your super temptation right there. Irrespective of the truth of it, the way Morrigan discusses the ritual implies that it will make it impossible for the Archdemon's soul to resurrect. I realise that might seem like a bit of a cheat -- and that's probably your view -- since it wasn't intended... but I didn't know it wasn't intended when I first played the game and it was a perfectly reasonable conclusion for my character to come to.

But -- "cheat" or not -- since the "word of God" is that we can come down on whatever side we want in respect to that, surely your concerns have been mitigated, even if only retroactively? 

Your problem, by my understanding, is that if it's only about survival, the ritual isn't remotely tempting and the payoff isn't worth the risk. Since we've been given leave to make the assumption it can be viewed as a tactical decision, why wouldn't you make that assumption so as to make the ritual as tempting and dramatic as it  "should" be?

In Exile wrote...

I would think it doesn't matter what Morrigan says. Even if you trust her, it's a matter of competence. I trust my best friend, but if tells me about how we could build a nuke toghether, I'm not inclined to listen to someone who's closest experience with science was a first year seminar.

Even if Morrigan is the sweetest angel on the planet that could not tell a lie and only wants puppies and flowers for everyone, she could very well be wrong. At the least she is asking you to save an old god, which according to the chantry is a false god who was punished by God.

So we've got two levels of blasphemy in the ritual: blood magic and saving an old god.

What I am saying is as the player, you know nothing about what Morrigan is offering. Even if you are a mage, you have no understanding and no one of understanding the process. You are shooting blind.

I think Morrigan is meant to have demonstrated she's a more powerful mage than a first year undergraduate is a knowledgable student by that point.

It's not that your concerns aren't valid -- they absolutely are -- but you're not ever divorcing them from the perspective of someone who believes the Chantry has the right of it. What about characters who loathe the chantry? What about characters who want to see the return of the old god? What about guys so ass-backwards infatuated with Morrigan that they'll trust her implicitly? What about the characters who conclude, from what she's saying, that it will raise the number of people who can slay the Archdemon from 3 to howevermany thousand?

Ultimately, this is your rationale, and it isn't applicable across the board for every character.

In Exile wrote...

Then there is a very reasonable chance that Alistair does not die, since you've overcome an insane amount of obstacles. You could have killed two dragons, a pride demon, a super-golem, a broodmother, not to mention effectively an army of soldiers, werewolves and darkspawn plus enough abominations to put the templars to shame.

Basically, if you suppose you as the Warden has awesome odds to survive, you have to suppose the same applies to Alistair. And if you think Alistair has a huge chance to die, then so do you.

So what I am saying is that her actual potential payoff is only if you are left alone, and the odds of that mattering are astronomicaly low in either possible case.

If you view the payoff purely in terms of survival or glory (as Morrigan offers it to you)  then sure, I can accept that. 

Though I don't think it's really fair to assume -- IU -- that both Wardens have an awesome chance of surviving, really. Sure, from a meta-perspective we know they do, but it's not like having overcome insane obstacles previously stacks. That they're in the position they are would be down as much to luck as it is to skill.

In Exile wrote...

That's a little vacuous.

I don't see how. You've made it clear that, whatever-which-way you look at it, you can't see the benefits of the ritual ever outweighing the risk -- even assuming that anyone can slay the archdemon. I assume none of your characters can, either... so don't do it.

It's abundantly clear that, rightly or wrongly, not everyone shares your view that the ritual isn't remotely tempting , so this can only really down to your perspective.

In Exile wrote...

Let's say that instead of having to sacrifice Isolde for the blood ritual, you had to sacrifice Connor's puppy. Now, presumably, the puppy is innocent (and cute!). The puppy can't consent to being killed. And if you go for the Circle Tower, everyone can still be saved (puppy included). It is quite conceivable that many would argue that from their point of view, the Circle Tower is still the only moral choice, and the puppy sacrifice is terrible.

Survey the majority, however, and you are likely find that the choice becomes much easier, and the apparent risk of going to the Circle is dramatic compared to before.

Certainly. Which is why this is different. If you surveyed the majority here, I think it would be clear -- even without the "anti-Joining" interpretation (which, as I said, would have been a cool idea) -- that plenty find the ritual tempting.

That's not to say that it wouldn't be made MORE tempting, of course. Though... would it? What about people who like the Grey Warden perks? I think it'd be far more tempting if it had removed the negative aspects of the taint but left the positive.

In Exile...

What I am saying is simple: Alistair has no more of a risk to die than the Warden. If the risk for Alistair dying is enormous, it is the same for the Warden. So the dark ritual in that case is nothing but for the special scenario where the Warden lives and Alistair dies, which is incredibly unlikely beacuse all signs point to both dying. And if the odds of the Warden living are high, then the chance of Alistair doing the same is higher.

If the odds of both the Warden and Alistair living are high, then the odds of one of them having to die are also high. Is saving the life of yourself or your friend/future puppet monarch worth the risk? Depends on the character.

In Exile...

You could never sense darkspawn. At the very least, I've never seen any time where they Warden has the opportunity to sense darkspawn at any point after the Joining.

More's the pity. It never even comes up in conversation. Boo!

Modifié par Ulicus, 21 juillet 2010 - 11:21 .

[Estelindis]

David Gaider wrote...

MoSa09 wrote...

Now when i think about a situation where something like that has happened, why does the Dark Ritual almost instantly comes to mind?

I'll have to assume you don't understand what I'm referring to by the "gotcha!".

A "gotcha!" would be everything in the game telling you the results of your action will be X but then Y happens instead.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with characters A, B, and C telling me the results of my action will be X when they actually turn out to be Y... as long as there are a justifiable in-character reasons for believing or disbelieving these people, whichever choice I'm inclined to take. I mean, NPCs plot. And sneak. And deceive. It just has to be credible deception that the PC nonetheless has the option not to believe.



So no-one like BG2: ToB's main antagonist, please, I mean, did anyone actually find that NPC trustworthy for even one second? (Remaining intentionally vague for the sake of anyone who hasn't played it - but, really, even they will know about 30 minutes into it once they pick it up.)



The flip-side of this is that such situations can't happen too early in the game. Design-wise, you simply can't give players the choice to change the outcome of the battle at Ostagar - it would be a completely different game if you could. This is in spite of the fact that many players I know could see the betrayal coming a mile off (and I don't just mean Bioware junkies who read every bit of game news as it comes out - I include a friend who had never heard of Bioware or Dragon Age before I gave her the game). In order not to force players into roleplaying stupid choices that they know will bite them in the proverbial posteriors, it's best to leave such things until later branches, when they can be better managed (i.e. without creating a wildly bifurcating storyline).



As for the Dark Ritual, the reason *I* felt that situation (indeed, the whole End Game) was a "gotcha!" is because the game seemed to set up my character to fall in love with Alistair and then proceeded to completely destroy the relationship, make the two of them miserable, and then leave my character alive but grieving when she'd intended to sacrifice herself. It was the only time I ever felt I'd been punished for investing myself emotionally in a video game. You can say that Morrigan promises X and delivers X, but that's only okay if you trust her to do the right thing - and the game up to that point had not inclined my PC to believe that at all. It's because I *couldn't* trust Morrigan *not* to pull a gotcha that I ended up being served a gotcha of my own in the final battle. (I was roleplaying that no sensible Warden would leave another Warden behind when it came to facing the archdemon, because that would be irresponsible... Someone didn't inform my Warden that apparently it's more dramatic for the man to save the woman than for the woman to save the man. Guess she really should have picked that up from her City Elf origin story, though.)

[Sappy69]

R.U.N wrote...

I wholeheartly agree.
On top of that it was Flemeth's plan to begin with and you might have killed her for whatever reason.
Telling Alistir or Loghain about the plan gives you a pretty good indication of just how wrong things could go......
it was tempting in my first playthrough though.
Either let Alistair the future king of Ferelden and the only person my Warden trusted die, or sacrifice yourself on a suicide mission without Alistair and Morrigan.
Considering how many times he already declined Morrigan's ''ideas'', I was suprised that she was suprised....if this was RL...well, what did you expect?

At the end of the day though, you're still talking about the life of just one person.  *One* person!  Undoubtedly, many are going to die in the upcoming battle at Denerim, what's another one?

You also make a very good point that I forgot to mention: that the DR was something Morrigan learned from Flemeth.  Whatever you've learned from DA, it's that you can't trust Flemeth.  How reliable is this DR if it's the culmination of events that Flemeth herself started from rescuing you from the tower at Ostagar?  Morrigan didn't join your group by accident.  Even if you assume Morrigan has the best intentions, how likely is it she'll outsmart Flemeth?  An ancient abomination vs. a 20-30-something-year-old woman...hrrm...as if the odds of the DR turning out well weren't already stacked enough as it is...

[R.U.N]

Sappy69 wrote...

R.U.N wrote...

I wholeheartly agree.
On top of that it was Flemeth's plan to begin with and you might have killed her for whatever reason.
Telling Alistir or Loghain about the plan gives you a pretty good indication of just how wrong things could go......
it was tempting in my first playthrough though.
Either let Alistair the future king of Ferelden and the only person my Warden trusted die, or sacrifice yourself on a suicide mission without Alistair and Morrigan.
Considering how many times he already declined Morrigan's ''ideas'', I was suprised that she was suprised....if this was RL...well, what did you expect?

At the end of the day though, you're still talking about the life of just one person.  *One* person!  Undoubtedly, many are going to die in the upcoming battle at Denerim, what's another one?

You also make a very good point that I forgot to mention: that the DR was something Morrigan learned from Flemeth.  Whatever you've learned from DA, it's that you can't trust Flemeth.  How reliable is this DR if it's the culmination of events that Flemeth herself started from rescuing you from the tower at Ostagar?  Morrigan didn't join your group by accident.  Even if you assume Morrigan has the best intentions, how likely is it she'll outsmart Flemeth?  An ancient abomination vs. a 20-30-something-year-old woman...hrrm...as if the odds of the DR turning out well weren't already stacked enough as it is...

On top of that consider that she also has to defend herself and possibly the child against Flemeth/Darkspawn/Chantry(?) after the DR is done.
And all that by herself.Things couldn't possibly go wrong, could they?

[wikkedjoker]

David Gaider wrote...

MoSa09 wrote...
Now when i think about a situation where something like that has happened, why does the Dark Ritual almost instantly comes to mind?

I'll have to assume you don't understand what I'm referring to by the "gotcha!".

A "gotcha!" would be everything in the game telling you the results of your action will be X but then Y happens instead. It could be an interesting plot twist or a frustrating one depending on how involved in the outcome the player feels. If they don't feel involved in what happened, they've lost agency.

The Dark Ritual was offered to your character and you made a decision-- and the outcome of your decision was exactly as advertised. Not a "gotcha!" moment in the slightest, unless you intend to extend the definition to "I didn't like it."

Well with the involvement of Flemeth in DA2 it almost seems like the Dark Ritual will be a 'gotcha' scenario.

Only a tad reversed.

From reading your books and playing the game, and all DLC, this "God Child" seems IMPORTANT.  Like Flemeth has been setting this up for a very long time.

Form everything like Meric in the wilds.
To the unknown origins on the Architect, and his quests, to him finding the Old God and starting the Blight.

To Alistair, and everything around him and who his mother really is.

To our Warden being saved, and forced to join up with  Morrigan.

To truth of Flemeth and  Morrigan's knowledge of the Gray Wardens, and how they must die to kill the Archdemon.and the magical solution her mother just happened to tell her about before sending her off with them.

It almost seems like everything that has happened with the Blight and Morrigan, was plotted by Flemeth to create this "God Child." For what reason?

Who knows? 
 
My guess would be to take the body of the "God Child" because of the power it would posses.OR maybe its out of blind worship to the Old Gods, again I don't know.

But what I mean by 'gotcha', or seemingly 'gotcha', is IF this is true, and If the God Child will play the role it looks like it will play. Than anyone who didn't do the Dark Ritual, and imports there Warden for his choices, will still have that gotcha feeling, because they didn't chose the Dark Ritual, its as if the choice would be made for them. 

However if you take the Dark Ritual as canon, and any other ending as a diverging continuity, like the Darkspawn DLC. Than I guess people will just have to live with it. Because I really believe this is the story that needs to be told.  

[wikkedjoker]

Sappy69 wrote...

R.U.N wrote...

I wholeheartly agree.
On top of that it was Flemeth's plan to begin with and you might have killed her for whatever reason.
Telling Alistir or Loghain about the plan gives you a pretty good indication of just how wrong things could go......
it was tempting in my first playthrough though.
Either let Alistair the future king of Ferelden and the only person my Warden trusted die, or sacrifice yourself on a suicide mission without Alistair and Morrigan.
Considering how many times he already declined Morrigan's ''ideas'', I was suprised that she was suprised....if this was RL...well, what did you expect?

At the end of the day though, you're still talking about the life of just one person.  *One* person!  Undoubtedly, many are going to die in the upcoming battle at Denerim, what's another one?

You also make a very good point that I forgot to mention: that the DR was something Morrigan learned from Flemeth.  Whatever you've learned from DA, it's that you can't trust Flemeth.  How reliable is this DR if it's the culmination of events that Flemeth herself started from rescuing you from the tower at Ostagar?  Morrigan didn't join your group by accident.  Even if you assume Morrigan has the best intentions, how likely is it she'll outsmart Flemeth?  An ancient abomination vs. a 20-30-something-year-old woman...hrrm...as if the odds of the DR turning out well weren't already stacked enough as it is...

I'm way ahead of you on this one. LOL

It might seem a little indigent, and by saying Morrigan is the main character, I really only mean main pawn.

But take a read if your interested in my Flemeth conspiracy theory. . . .

And than you look at Dragon Age as a whole, and look at all the events,
like it or not Morrigan IS the main character in the story, not the
Warden not Hawke, the world that dragon age is in revolves around her
almost

Want proof?
 
Look at the facts

*The Battle  at Ostagar is botched, and Flemeth saves you. 
*Femith than tells you to take Morrigan with  you, as the price for her saving your life.  
*Over all Morrigan has a great deal more character development. Going form scared child in a
woman’s body, mentally. To coming into her own, and learning to trust the rag tag band of
heroes assembled. Even to the point of falling in love with the Warden.
And if you remember what her mother teaching of what love is, than you know that was a big step for her to pull away form that, and open up to the warden and fall into a fulfilling love.

But than she does fall in love with the Warden, she had only originally  been sent there to have his child, and have that child be the host for the Old Gods soul.

Her and the Warden  conceive a child, and she does her job thinking she is saving the man she loves life. But really she’s just a pawn for Flemeth.

However it seems that Morrigan,  knows more about the “God Child” than she lets on. Probably based off
something Flemeth told her, something along the lines that it’s  dangerous, or
could be. So for the safety of the people she cares about  she leaves Ferelden. But this is probably what Flemeth wants.

Do you honestly believe that someone as old and wise and as powerful as Flemeth
would be killed as easy as she was? Think about what it took to kill the Archdemon, I would imagine it wouldn‘t be that hard, but not as easy as it was.

Anyways  this is when we get to DA2. The start Dragon Age 2 takes place, just before the final battle, so in the
first year of DA2 we know our Warden is in  Denerim and Amaranthine However Hawke
was making his was to Kurkwall, or more likely the Free Marches. On his way there its likely that Flemeth, not the old hag we know, but the young beautiful woman we have seen in the concept art, saves his
life form Hurlocks. The two team up, after all Hawke also has a Mage sister he needs to protect. My guess is they want to go as far North as they can, to someplace controlled by the Tevinter Imperium. Flemeth of
course is not in anyway a good person, and is plotting. Her plot all along was to eventually create a “God Child”. to what end we don’t know.but I can guess.

On a side note it would be interesting to see just  how far this plot goes.  We know that three is something off with
the Architect for some unknown reason he was born different. We also know that he was able to find Urthemiel, faster than what he should have.I wonder just how much influence Flemeth had in this? Maybe she
created the Arhitect and, sent him on his way to find the Old God  faster, to start the Blight in the life time of Morrigan, so Morrigan could conceive the “God Child.”

So in DA2 Morrigan is on the run,and has probably already had the “God Child.” Well what better way
to find someone than to have entire nations looking for her, and if they
believe this child could start the next Blight or something like that,  because it has the soul of an Old God, and there is reason enough to believe that it would be powerful.

However there is no reason to believe that Morrigan is utterly stupid, and it wouldn’t be unrealistic
to believe that she has ether been given power by the Old God to protect its undeveloped child body, or that the child her self is in full control of her God power, enough power to fake the return of Andraste, and raise a cult like army.  One that would take the resources of 10 years to find and combat.

I don’t think that this is Hawke’sstory. I think we will see the story of a man being used by Flemeth
to achieve her ultimate goal, a goal that if I had to guess would be the power of the God child, ether though its body or Morrigan/Morrigan’s body.

I think we will see a sneaky villain in the guise of  our “friend” Flemeth. As she manipulates us in to
creating a new world, maybe by using our sister who is a mage as bate so to say. Or manipulating us through romance so that we would do what ever  it takes to create a world in which out mage sister and lover
could be safe. Ultimately however it’s only a ploy to use us to find and get
Morrigan and the god child.   

EDIT: After writing this: I did more looking into Dragon Age and have some other things that see odd, and have to do with Flemeth. Such things are in the prior post to this one. 

Modifié par wikkedjoker, 21 juillet 2010 - 12:06 .

[Ulicus]

^ The "facts" you mention regarding Morrigan above are, for the most part, dependant on player choices. She doesn't have to come to trust, or even like, the Warden's band... and she certainly doesn't have to fall in love with him or befriend him/her.

[R.U.N]

Ulicus wrote...

^ The "facts" you mention regarding Morrigan above are, for the most part, dependant on player choices. She doesn't have to come to trust, or even like, the Warden's band... and she certainly doesn't have to fall in love with him or befriend him/her.

Even then it's open to interpretation if she does actually ''love'' The Warden/cares about her only(?) friend.
You can find enough reasons in the game to think that she does actually care and enough reasons to come to the conclusion that she only tries to use The Warden and could care less about him/her.

We don't even know if almost anything she says is really true, the whole posession grimore deal can be seen from a bunch of different angles and all could be valid.

[tybbiesniffer]

Estelindis wrote...

As for the Dark Ritual, the reason *I* felt that situation (indeed, the whole End Game) was a "gotcha!" is because the game seemed to set up my character to fall in love with Alistair and then proceeded to completely destroy the relationship, make the two of them miserable, and then leave my character alive but grieving when she'd intended to sacrifice herself. It was the only time I ever felt I'd been punished for investing myself emotionally in a video game. You can say that Morrigan promises X and delivers X, but that's only okay if you trust her to do the right thing - and the game up to that point had not inclined my PC to believe that at all. It's because I *couldn't* trust Morrigan *not* to pull a gotcha that I ended up being served a gotcha of my own in the final battle. (I was roleplaying that no sensible Warden would leave another Warden behind when it came to facing the archdemon, because that would be irresponsible... Someone didn't inform my Warden that apparently it's more dramatic for the man to save the woman than for the woman to save the man. Guess she really should have picked that up from her City Elf origin story, though.)

This was my exact experience the first time I played, city elf and everything.  That was probably the most depressing ending of any game I have ever played.  I actually fought the archdemon 3 or 4 times to select a different dialogue option so Alistair wouldn't run off and die; it was horrible.  I eventually wound up reloading before they left the gates, leaving Alistair there, and doing the US (which was, imo, pretty damn cool)...just because I could not let that ending stand.  If my choice comes down to this ending or meta-gaming and taking the DR, the DR will win every time to spare myself (not the character) that ending ever, ever again.

Modifié par tybbiesniffer, 21 juillet 2010 - 05:23 .

[AlanC9]

Dick Delaware wrote...

Yeah, that part of her character really fell flat. You aren't really good at the whole manipulative thing if you keep telling everybody you're manipulative. Now Kreia, that was was a damn good manipulative character.

I didn't think it fell flat. Considering Morrigan's background, it would be kind of weird if she was any good at manipulating people, or indeed at any other aspect of human relationships. She struck me as being pretty consistent that way.

[Riona45]

SirShreK wrote...

@sappy:

I agree with you except on one point. If Morrigan's offer was accepted, the Warden will automatically make the killing blow. This makes sense that the DR allows only the ritual participant to kill the Archdemon.

Eh, no.  In my game, I was a female who had to have Alistair sleep with Morrigan.  Yet, my character still killed the Archdemon.

[Saibh]

Riona45 wrote...

SirShreK wrote...

@sappy:

I agree with you except on one point. If Morrigan's offer was accepted, the Warden will automatically make the killing blow. This makes sense that the DR allows only the ritual participant to kill the Archdemon.

Eh, no.  In my game, I was a female who had to have Alistair sleep with Morrigan.  Yet, my character still killed the Archdemon.

Exactly what I was about to bring up. 

I figure it's more of a game mechanic to allow you to get the glory blow. It's even weirder when you don't even tell Alistair why he's doing the Dark Ritual, or even hint that it will allow you to live, but then doesn't attempt to stop you when you kill it. I figured he was mad at me for trying to give him swamp syphilis.

[Riona45]

AlanC9 wrote...


I didn't think it fell flat. Considering Morrigan's background, it would be kind of weird if she was any good at manipulating people, or indeed at any other aspect of human relationships. She struck me as being pretty consistent that way.

I will agree that Morrigan never came off to me as any kind of master manipulator. 

[Riona45]

Ulicus wrote...

^ The "facts" you mention regarding Morrigan above are, for the most part, dependant on player choices. She doesn't have to come to trust, or even like, the Warden's band... and she certainly doesn't have to fall in love with him or befriend him/her.

Agreed, his stuff is mostly unconfirmed, unsubstantiated BS.  Not a great thinker, to be sure.

PS:  You can file me under those who did the DR partly because I was actually intrigued about the idea of preserving an Old God.

Modifié par Riona45, 21 juillet 2010 - 05:57 .

[Saibh]

Riona45 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...


I didn't think it fell flat. Considering Morrigan's background, it would be kind of weird if she was any good at manipulating people, or indeed at any other aspect of human relationships. She struck me as being pretty consistent that way.

I will agree that Morrigan never came off to me as any kind of master manipulator. 

I kinda sorta thought it was the point. She's never had real companionship on any long-term scale, and doesn't know how to behave correctly. She's fairly pleasant to the Warden when she first meets him/her, but doesn't seem to be able to keep up a pleasant demeanor if she has to spend all of her time with you.

[Riona45]

Saibh wrote...

I kinda sorta thought it was the point. She's never had real companionship on any long-term scale, and doesn't know how to behave correctly.

And that's...pretty much what I was talking about.  I wasn't criticizing the way the character was portrayed.