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[iTomes]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

OK, ignoring the Godwin's Law pull...

There IS a quantitative difference in the amount of destruction that one mage can produce with just his/her own initiative and desire for violence, and the amount of destruction your typical warrior can produce with a sharp piece of metal. Mages simply have far more destructive potential. There's a reason why with the armies, you get twelve mages and about 50 of everyone else.

Add that to the fact that weak-minded/poorly trained mages are immensely dangerous to themselves and others. Even the best mages can be compelled into abhomination against their wills, a la the Broken Circle quest. While I don't agree with the methods, I can understand the need for some oversight when it comes to mages, if only to make sure they're properly educated and trained.

1. YES, there is a difference between what potential for devastation a mage has compared to a warrior. but if you want to burn down an orphanage or something you dont necessarily need to be a mage. so you can do a lot of damage even as a normal guy if you want to. 

2. YES, mages need training, but theres no reason to keep them locked when the training is over.

3. a mage cant become a abomination if he doesn't want to, you can only torture him and force him to agree. but thats not a very strong abomination then, because the strongest work TOGETHER with the one they possess (remember uldred). 

[Darren1861]

I would so be a Apostates so fast. I wish you could of been a Apostates in Dragon Age Orgins. I like this form very much and I hope maybe BIOWare is listening or all ready having that in mind.

[Sable Rhapsody]

SirShreK wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

OK, ignoring the Godwin's Law pull...

There IS a quantitative difference in the amount of destruction that one mage can produce with just his/her own initiative and desire for violence, and the amount of destruction your typical warrior can produce with a sharp piece of metal. Mages simply have far more destructive potential. There's a reason why with the armies, you get twelve mages and about 50 of everyone else.

Add that to the fact that weak-minded/poorly trained mages are immensely dangerous to themselves and others. Even the best mages can be compelled into abhomination against their wills, a la the Broken Circle quest. While I don't agree with the methods, I can understand the need for some oversight when it comes to mages, if only to make sure they're properly educated and trained.

And then set free at a later date. (possible addition?)

It's not even a matter of "setting free."  It's just a matter of educating the goddamn mages to look after themselves.  We know the templars use lyrium to bolster their abilities--logically, they use magic too.  The mage PC has access to the Mana Clash tree of spells, just as effective as shutting down abominations and enemy emissaries as templar abilities.  The mages could easily police themselves if First Enchanters and Senior Enchanters were skilled in this kind of magic to repel abominations and blood mages.  

And as for abomination, sure you can argue that the strongest ones are the ones willingly let in by the mages.  Uldred, Connor, Flemeth...though she's a weird case.  That doesn't mean that compelled abominations aren't powerful--a tower with a handful of them was enough to wipe out most of the other mages, and notably the templars too.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 20 juillet 2010 - 09:39 .

[iTomes]

"It's not even a matter of "setting free." It's just a matter of educating the goddamn mages to look after themselves. We know the templars use lyrium to bolster their abilities--logically, they use magic too. The mage PC has access to the Mana Clash tree of spells, just as effective as shutting down abominations and enemy emissaries as templar abilities. The mages could easily police themselves if First Enchanters and Senior Enchanters were skilled in this kind of magic to repel abominations and blood mages. "



never said different. the question is: what does "education" mean. imo almost all abominations come to existence because of the templars. remember the reason for "the broken circle". mages see themselves forced to use bloodmagic to get free or just to stay alive. bringing little children to the tower to teach them is fine and necessary. never letting them out again is not.

[Ulicus]

The Console Version is good wrote...

I say Bioware should create an alternative to the Cricle like a secret society for Apostate mages, You can call it something cool like the Secret society of the ring of fire! or something of that sort.

The Mages Collective is basically that.

[Dick Delaware]

Koffeegirl wrote...

I completely agree with you and have been thinking the exact same thing! I am also hoping that Lady Hawke is an apostate and am planning to have her burn the templars and the Chantry to the ground.....just for fun.
(My opinion may also be colored by being sleep deprived and a love for causing trouble for the templars as well)

I'm not too hot on having a bunch of drug-addicted zealots roaming around with minimal restrictions, but after seeing what a kid like Connor was able to do to an entire town without any sort of training, I shudder to think of a demon taking control of a magical prodigy who is skilled. They, and even the qunari, have a point.

[Altima Darkspells]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

C9316 wrote...

To counter the chantry hate in this thread I'll be playing as a mage who will side with the chantry. If anything I wish for the pro-chantry people we can maybe loosen their control a little,maybe make this circle similar to the ferelden circle where the mages have some freedoms; but still keep tabs on them for the sake of innocents.

Just out of interest, if they sentenced your sister to death would that change your stance?

I think being Tranquil falls under the whole Fate Worse Than Death trope, to be honest.  A great deal of your essential humanity is stripped from you in that case.  Part of why I loved Duncan so much was that he saved my mage PC from what would have been a horrific punishment at the hands of the Templars, if Greagior's fury was any gauge of the severity of her mistake.

Also, from what we hear of the mage political factions in DA:O, the pro-Chantry Loyalists are not reformers.  They're basically the Chantry's butt-monkeys.  The Equitarians are more along the lines of cautious reformers, while the Libertarians are openly for increased freedom from the Chantry.

Actually, Mages who pass their Harrowing cannot be made Tranquil, as per Anders.  He mentions that after escaping half a dozen times, the templars would *love* to make him Tranquil, but cannot because he passed his Harrowing.

So making mages Tranquil genuinely seems to prevent mages from becoming possessed as opposed to something the Chantry does when a mage irritates them.  Or perhaps they need mages to perform the actual Tranquil ritual, or the Chantry knows now to cross certain lines else they risk a full-on rebellion.

[Dick Delaware]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
It's not even a matter of "setting free."  It's just a matter of educating the goddamn mages to look after themselves.  We know the templars use lyrium to bolster their abilities--logically, they use magic too.  The mage PC has access to the Mana Clash tree of spells, just as effective as shutting down abominations and enemy emissaries as templar abilities.  The mages could easily police themselves if First Enchanters and Senior Enchanters were skilled in this kind of magic to repel abominations and blood mages.  

And as for abomination, sure you can argue that the strongest ones are the ones willingly let in by the mages.  Uldred, Connor, Flemeth...though she's a weird case.  That doesn't mean that compelled abominations aren't powerful--a tower with a handful of them was enough to wipe out most of the other mages, and notably the templars too.

Structure is necessary here, that's for certain. It doesn't have to entail qunari-style tongue-cutting or compassionless dogma, but you do need something. Having kids running around without any kind of central organization to control their gifts would be terrible. 

[iTomes]

well, yes... having KIDS running around without control over theyre gifts would be terrible, same counts for adults. the question is rather: what will you do when the education is over?

[Sable Rhapsody]

iTomes wrote...

well, yes... having KIDS running around without control over theyre gifts would be terrible, same counts for adults. the question is rather: what will you do when the education is over?

Same thing that you do for doctors or surgeons when their education is over.  Trust that they've been well-educated, rigorously educated, and send them out into the world with some sort of oversight to check in with them every once in a while.  Yeah, some of them will turn out freaky, and that's inevitable, but most of the mages will hopefully be instilled with a sense of responsibility over their special gifts.

As for the templars, I think they have a point about the danger of possession.  Connor and the Circle really drove that home for me.  I think they and the qunari go about it the wrong way.  If you treat someone with fear, oppression, and suspicion, they will respond in kind.  If you treat someone like a beast, they'll become a beast.  With few exceptions, I think the treatment of the mages actually makes them more prone to abomination rather than less.  It puts them into a negative mindset.  Part of the roleplaying of my mage was that the source of her strength and proof against abomination--despite thumbing her nose at the Chantry--was her unyielding belief in herself, her optimism, and her personal stubbornness.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 20 juillet 2010 - 10:21 .

[iTomes]

^agreed.

[Riona45]

glenboy24 wrote...

Thank you for clarifying that, Sable. In my introspective state I might have forgotten to flush out the Term use. Yes, by *Canon* I meant the Origin that most intergrated itself with several crucial plot points and characters. As to whether or not the Devs mentioned anything concrete? Well, that wouldn't be "fair" to those who feel the Dwarven of Elven Origins are canon for them, so it's something best left unsaid.

The devs have not, to my knowledge, declared that any particular story or character is "canon."  That being said, I get where you're coming from, but I'm not sure if I agree with you about it.

[Riona45]

Altima Darkspells wrote...


Actually, Mages who pass their Harrowing cannot be made Tranquil, as per Anders.  He mentions that after escaping half a dozen times, the templars would *love* to make him Tranquil, but cannot because he passed his Harrowing.

Yeah, Anders is basically walking, talking proof that it's possible to flaunt the rules of the Circle and not be subject to automatic death and/or dehumanization.  Of course, in the case of the mage PC, an argument could have been made that he/she was helping a blood mage (look what happened to Lily, who wasn't even a mage!), but even then, there's really no way to know how exactly the PC would have been punished if Duncan hadn't shown up.

[Riona45]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
Part of the roleplaying of my mage was that the source of her strength and proof against abomination--despite thumbing her nose at the Chantry--was her unyielding belief in herself, her optimism, and her personal stubbornness.

Sounds a little like my mage.  Although I wouldn't say that her strength came in spite of thumbing her nose at the Chantry.

Modifié par Riona45, 20 juillet 2010 - 11:15 .

[Ahisgewaya]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
Same thing that you do for doctors or surgeons when their education is over.  Trust that they've been well-educated, rigorously educated, and send them out into the world with some sort of oversight to check in with them every once in a while.  Yeah, some of them will turn out freaky, and that's inevitable, but most of the mages will hopefully be instilled with a sense of responsibility over their special gifts.

As for the templars, I think they have a point about the danger of possession.  Connor and the Circle really drove that home for me.  I think they and the qunari go about it the wrong way.  If you treat someone with fear, oppression, and suspicion, they will respond in kind.  If you treat someone like a beast, they'll become a beast.  With few exceptions, I think the treatment of the mages actually makes them more prone to abomination rather than less.  It puts them into a negative mindset.

This post is awesome. Sorry, but when you put zealots in charge of things they don't do things right. The crazy "kill them all" Templar drove that home for me. Yes, they could all be abominations, but that really is beside the point. Every kid in Redcliff could one day become an axe murderer. That doesn't mean we should just kill all kids in Redcliff.
The worst of society's monsters were not born that way, they were made that way by ****s. 

[Sable Rhapsody]

Ahisgewaya wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
Same thing that you do for doctors or surgeons when their education is over.  Trust that they've been well-educated, rigorously educated, and send them out into the world with some sort of oversight to check in with them every once in a while.  Yeah, some of them will turn out freaky, and that's inevitable, but most of the mages will hopefully be instilled with a sense of responsibility over their special gifts.

As for the templars, I think they have a point about the danger of possession.  Connor and the Circle really drove that home for me.  I think they and the qunari go about it the wrong way.  If you treat someone with fear, oppression, and suspicion, they will respond in kind.  If you treat someone like a beast, they'll become a beast.  With few exceptions, I think the treatment of the mages actually makes them more prone to abomination rather than less.  It puts them into a negative mindset.

This post is awesome. Sorry, but when you put zealots in charge of things they don't do things right. The crazy "kill them all" Templar drove that home for me. Yes, they could all be abominations, but that really is beside the point. Every kid in Redcliff could one day become an axe murderer. That doesn't mean we should just kill all kids in Redcliff.
The worst of society's monsters were not born that way, they were made that way by ****s. 

Haha,  Thanks, I try 

And Awakenings taught us, if nothing else, that even the darkspawn have elements to them besides monstrosity.  If we're willing to give some of them the benefit of the doubt, why not the mages?