29 réponses à ce sujet

[Orchomene]

Having never played any MMO, I was a bit surprised with the "tanking" and "DPS" concept used in DAO.
So, I tried and found first it was a very simple way to give tactical roles to characters, but...

Because there is a but, a big but. I remember the old days of party roleplaying games or tactical games where you had to manage enemies going after your mages (consider BG as an example). You thus had to protect your mages with two main "tools" :
- direct protection of the mage that uses spells to protect him/herself. Of course, those spells could be dispelled and fights were on both sides beginning with a debuffing/buffing competition.
- indirect protection given by the members of the party and the placement. Fighters blocking strategic points, thieves ambushing enemies closing mages, priests buffing the party...

The tanking tool with "taking aggro" concept removes a lot of the necessity to find a way to protect the mage in DAO. thus, the mage can concentrate on offensive spells and feels quickly overpowered. So, I think, in the end, that this tanking concept has an unbalance side effect.
I understand the necessity in MMO to have a dynamic that allows bypassing the issue of a lack of coordination in a MP game. But in a single player game where the player can control all the characters, it just gives the impression that the enemy is too dumb to go after the most dangerous opponent, that is the mage.
On the other hand, the player will ignore the enemy tanks and go directly to the mage/shooters that he/she knows deals a lot more damage. This makes the fights too easy and need thus overpowered enemies (or overcrowded enemy parties) to have difficult fights.

So, we can think of different solutions for this problem (if you think there is a problem) :
- keep the concept as in DAO (i.e. it's not a problem)
- lower the aggro efficiency of the tanks by changing the initial base (ie, by default, mages and shooters have a higher aggro but fighters can compensate it if dedicated in taking aggro, whereas in DAO, armoured fighters do take more initial aggro).
- remove all the aggro concept and replace it by the possibility to have the fighter blocking strategic points and have opportunity attacks (or a thing like that).

So, what do you think of this tanking mechanic ? Do you have other replacement ideas if you too think that it brings more issues than it solves ?

[soteria]

I don't think the mechanic in general is a problem, but I think it was poorly implemented in Dragon Age. Taunt in particular is, imo, "broken," but hopefully they'll do better in DA2.

[dielveio]

I never used any kind of aggro skill with my tanks. Mostly because wasn't needed.

If an enemy managed to get close to my mage, I'll just send a Shield Bash or any other skill to take him to the ground, or just use a Mind Blast and find a new position to my mage.

[Tirigon]

Mages are ridiculously underpowered. Spelldamage is way too low.

[Lord Gremlin]

I usually used 3 damagers - 1 ranged damager and 2 close combat - and a healer.



I don't like the whole tanking idea. And never play MMO.

[Lord Gremlin]

Tirigon wrote...

Mages are ridiculously underpowered. Spelldamage is way too low.

Especially shapeshifters. Once I had a shapeshifter with spellpower so high, he was almost invincible  in spider or bear form. And still dealt way too little damage.

[Tirigon]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Mages are ridiculously underpowered. Spelldamage is way too low.

Especially shapeshifters. Once I had a shapeshifter with spellpower so high, he was almost invincible  in spider or bear form. And still dealt way too little damage.

I never played Shapeshifter in vanilla; But with Combat tweaks, Shapeshifter + Arcane Warrior is simply imba.
I can hit for 150 damage easily (while at the same  time, my spells do 100 at most - leading to the funny fact that my "highest damage dealt" came from an autohit:D)

[Lord Gremlin]

Tirigon wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Mages are ridiculously underpowered. Spelldamage is way too low.

Especially shapeshifters. Once I had a shapeshifter with spellpower so high, he was almost invincible  in spider or bear form. And still dealt way too little damage.

I never played Shapeshifter in vanilla; But with Combat tweaks, Shapeshifter + Arcane Warrior is simply imba.
I can hit for 150 damage easily (while at the same  time, my spells do 100 at most - leading to the funny fact that my "highest damage dealt" came from an autohit:D)

You mean you can mod the game to make em better? Well, I play Dragon Age on PS3 and even on PC I usually never mod my games.

[Haexpane]

Orchomene wrote...

 
- lower the aggro efficiency of the tanks by changing the initial base

So, what do you think of this tanking mechanic ? Do you have other replacement ideas if you too think that it brings more issues than it solves ?

Well managing aggro efficiency comes from MMOs and they CONSTANTLy have to tweak and balance it.  Too weak and "Tanks SUXXORS"  too strong and "WTF this boss is too easy"

So i'd say patches is the way to go, or a slider bar for aggro effectiveness.  People who want a really hard game can turn down Tank Aggro to ZERO and just make it based on damage and AI.

AI is the other problem, there really hasn't been any great AI ever in a game yet, the tech isn't there.

[iTomes]

well the problem with taking the aggro pulling down is that it wont make sense because a spell usually makes more damage then a normal attack... i mean come on an armageddon spell making less damage then a swordstrike....no way. that way mages would always have the aggro and would have to protect themselves. perfect party would be: 3 mages, 1 rogue (for lockpicking)

[B3taMaxxx]

In terms of simulation, aggro makes sense in a single player rpg. As some have stated, aggro talents/skills aren't (for the most part) necessary. Enemies will first attack the party member with the highest amount of armor, allowing mages and rogues to pick off the mob one by one. However if your mage does considerble more damage to the mob or an individual member, they will become the target of aggression. This to me reflects a decent simulation of battle.

[soteria]

So i'd say patches is the way to go, or a slider bar for aggro effectiveness. People who want a really hard game can turn down Tank Aggro to ZERO and just make it based on damage and AI.

Eh? I've played without a tank at all. That doesn't make it a really hard game. There's no need for them to implement a slider if people want to play without "tank aggro." Just don't use threaten or taunt.

[Haexpane]

soteria wrote...

So i'd say patches is the way to go, or a slider bar for aggro effectiveness. People who want a really hard game can turn down Tank Aggro to ZERO and just make it based on damage and AI.

Eh? I've played without a tank at all. That doesn't make it a really hard game. There's no need for them to implement a slider if people want to play without "tank aggro." Just don't use threaten or taunt.

DAO being too easy in general is another thread.

Lets assume DAO isn't too easy and you can't just play 3 mages and a rogue.   The OP is basing everything on the holy grail of balance and a "traditional" party w/ a tank

[soteria]

Lets assume DAO isn't too easy and you can't just play 3 mages and a rogue. The OP is basing everything on the holy grail of balance and a "traditional" party w/ a tank

Ok, but I can still play a warrior without using threaten or taunt, can't I? I'm just saying players who don't like that feature can successfully ignore it.

As for the OP, what I would do to "fix" aggro is drastically reduce the effectiveness of Taunt, make it scale with constitution (or something), and make Assault a frontal aoe ability (like dw sweep) + single target stun. Also, would it be too much to ask for the shield talents to scale a little better with dex? Maybe double the stat scaling and make it the average of dex and str. As it is, the offensive talents are strong but only if you invest in strength.

[Malanek]

I rarely used a tank. DPS and crowd control. And Leliana, who was pretty crap for the first three quarters of the game, if I wasn't playing a rogue. Respec (or at least a little rogue flexibility) would be nice for DA2.

[SirOccam]

I've never liked the whole tanking idea, and even the entire RPG setup with hitpoints and whatnot has always felt stilted and awkward. I get that it's necessary for pen and paper RPGs especially, but it's not realistic in the slightest.

I wish some game would come along in which avoiding death in battle would be due entirely to avoidance...either dodging or parrying. If your extremely strong warrior gets his throat cut, he bleeds just as fast as your mage. I mean...I don't care how "tough" you are, there are only so many times you can be cut with a sword (or riddled with bulltets, for that matter) before you die. Everyone should be as good at engaging enemies, just in different ways.

Anyway, I'm not saying DA2 should be this game, but it would be nice to see eventually.

[Malanek]

soteria wrote...
Also, would it be too much to ask for the shield talents to scale a little better with dex? Maybe double the stat scaling and make it the average of dex and str. As it is, the offensive talents are strong but only if you invest in strength.

I disagree with this. Dexterity was already better than strength for a tank. No need to make it even more so.

[soteria]

Malanek999 wrote...

soteria wrote...
Also, would it be too much to ask for the shield talents to scale a little better with dex? Maybe double the stat scaling and make it the average of dex and str. As it is, the offensive talents are strong but only if you invest in strength.

I disagree with this. Dexterity was already better than strength for a tank. No need to make it even more so.

If all you care about is survivability via higher defense, yes, dexterity is good (too good).  If taunt were less effective, as I propose, a high dex tank wouldn't be able to keep anything attacking him.  If he had a mage casting haste and flaming weapons, he'd do decent damage against a single target, but that's it.
Different subject from aggro mechanics, but the reason dexterity is so great is that str/dex only increase attack by .5 per point.  Dex increases defense by 1 per point.  That makes becoming "unhittable" inevitable, unfortunately.  I'd like to see them do something about that, too.

[biomag]

I don't like this MMO-principles and DA:O luckily gives you the possibility to ignore it. Yes, my shield and sword warriors are some kind of tanks, but I use them aggressively, but not aggro-culturing and without "taunt&co". Each character gets a pretty balanced stats disposition - sure main attributes are priority, but none the less, I ain't powergaming. And you know what? I can play on the highest difficulty without getting stuck. DA:O is still "balanced".

[Tirigon]

soteria wrote...
That makes becoming "unhittable" inevitable, unfortunately.  I'd like to see them do something about that, too.

Please, please, PLEASE tell me how.

Oghren had about 150 defense as Dualwielder (respec mod) and he still got hit 9 out of 10 times........

[Lord Gremlin]

Tirigon wrote...

soteria wrote...
That makes becoming "unhittable" inevitable, unfortunately.  I'd like to see them do something about that, too.

Please, please, PLEASE tell me how.

Oghren had about 150 defense as Dualwielder (respec mod) and he still got hit 9 out of 10 times........

Correspondence between Defense score and actual chance to avoid a hit in % heavily depends on game difficulty setting.

[andar91]

I like the aggro system because I think it adds a sense of realism to the game. Enemies are probably going to go for the person who's doing the most damage. If I cast a fireball on them, though, they'll come for me as that generates a lot of aggro. To me, it just makes sense.



As for tanking, I think it works well. I think that in games like BG2 you still had tanks after a fashion; you tried to position your characters so your fighters 'n such were in the front shielding your delicate casters.

[soteria]

Please, please, PLEASE tell me how.

Oghren had about 150 defense as Dualwielder (respec mod) and he still got hit 9 out of 10 times........

I'm assuming you're exaggerating.

Chance to hit (on nightmare, anyway) is attack + 54 - defense. So, to be unhittable, your defense needs to be at least 54 points higher than their attack. For them to hit you 90% of the time, their attack has to be 40 points higher than your defense. According to the numbers for normal monster attack ratings that beancounter gathered in this thread, most normal enemies' attack rating is below 100. Ser Cauthrien's attack is ~120 (obviously varies based on her level), which is about 20 points higher than most everything else. A lot of yellow enemies' attack is around 100, so at 160 defense you should be safe from most things--but you need close to 180 to evade Ser Cauthrien 100% of the time.

It should be noted, though, that I put "unhittable" in quotes for a reason. First, some attacks always hit (scattershot, massive attack, grab, many other specials). Second, you lose your dexterity bonus to defense while stunned.

[Tirigon]

soteria wrote...

I'm assuming you're exaggerating.
Chance to hit (on nightmare, anyway) is attack + 54 - defense. So, to be unhittable, your defense needs to be at least 54 points higher than their attack. For them to hit you 90% of the time, their attack has to be 40 points higher than your defense. According to the numbers for normal monster attack ratings that beancounter gathered in this thread, most normal enemies' attack rating is below 100. Ser Cauthrien's attack is ~120 (obviously varies based on her level), which is about 20 points higher than most everything else. A lot of yellow enemies' attack is around 100, so at 160 defense you should be safe from most things--but you need close to 180 to evade Ser Cauthrien 100% of the time.
It should be noted, though, that I put "unhittable" in quotes for a reason. First, some attacks always hit (scattershot, massive attack, grab, many other specials). Second, you lose your dexterity bonus to defense while stunned.

I´m not exaggerating.

It may be, however, that Combat Tweaks drastically improves enemy attack rating, and of course the stun thing is important.

To be honest, on Nightmare with Combat Tweaks and the optional levelscaling tweak fights consist mainly of Crowd control - usually the one who stuns first wins because you´re dead before the stun is over.

[B3taMaxxx]

Dexterity is always > Strength > Constitution

Modifié par B3taMaxxx, 20 juillet 2010 - 11:47 .