153 réponses à ce sujet

[Lugaid of the Red Stripes]

I've only been skimming this thread, so I apologize if I missed something important, but it seems to me like this might be a good time to present a petition with a list of demands for the new game to Atari and Cryptic, signed en masse by the community members here (and at the citadel, and on the PWs), with the explicit threat to boycott the new product if key demands are not satisfied.



At the very least, when the new game fails, people can point to the petition and say "look, it didn't fail because players don't like DnD, it failed because you didn't give them what they wanted." And in the meantime, whenever a developer gets bullied by a publisher into a making dumb design choices, they can pull the petition out of their back pocket and smack the publisher around with it.



As long as modern games are living or dying based upon community interest and support, we might as well be upfront about our needs and stake out a place for ourselves in the decision-making process.



BTW, any lawyer-types out there know if the libel laws will get in the way if we pan the new game in every comment and review thread from Amazon to Metacritic?

[Seagloom]

Thanks for the find Tonytobinus. A pity it's bad news from my perspective. Those who posited this would be a Guild Wars/City of Heroes sort of game look to have been proven correct if that interview is any indication. I was clinging to the hope that this forge system was a fancy name for their custom content creator, but it looks to be an in-game feature. No toolset and more so, no DM client has essentially eliminated my interest in Neverwinter. There is always the next single player D&D game, I guess...

[Urk]

Yup. That's pretty much a death knell for me too. Oh well. It was unreasonably optimistic to think that Atari and Cryptic could put their heads together and come up with anything but crap.

[Kanten]

Thorne_underfoot wrote...

1) The property that Cryptic is working on is not (at least from Atari's way of seeing things) part of the whole Atari/Hasboro snafoo. The suggestion is that Atari/Hasboro is simply the NWN franchise license rather than the entire D&D license as has been speculated.  So development/release of this property is not dependent on the outcome of the lawsuit.  And Atari is looking to continue to capitalize on that asset.

As far as I've read that's not the case. All settings related to Forgotten Realms are part of that license. If the lawsuit leads to the forfeiture of the license, there is no way Atari can release the game in this form.

If anything, I actually hope this leads to Hasbro pressing the case harder.

Modifié par Kanten, 24 août 2010 - 08:47 .

[The Fred]

I've played Guild Wars and enjoyed it, but it's a whole different kettle of fish to NWN, which I play primarily because off the incredible modding and building capabilities.

[Thorne_underfoot]

Kanten wrote...
As far as I've read that's not the case. All settings related to Forgotten Realms are part of that license. If the lawsuit leads to the forfeiture of the license, there is no way Atari can release the game in this form.

If anything, I actually hope this leads to Hasbro pressing the case harder.

So you may be right.  I am merely speculating here.  However, I did state "From Atari's way of seeing things" which covers a whole range of ills.  If they have a reasonable speculation that developing this product is not an infringement of that contract, (regardless of if it ACTUALLY IS or not) becomes irrelevent.

And owing to the fact that your interpratation would seem to preclude Cryptic from working on the project at all, yet they have, I would think that would lend towards your suppostion being wrong.  I can't see Cryptic (or any other development company) putting their necks out working on a project, and then making a public statement about same if there was any chance they could get slammed for it.  That's just bad business.

I have seen it stated that the license is multi-tiered and that is where my supposition comes from.  I am guessing that the license isn't all D&D or DDO would never have flown.  So I am guessing that it is not anywhere near as cut and dried as it may appear (i.e. "all Forgotten Realms").  But I am open to being wrong.  Just saying the facts don't seem to support the conclusions.

[SFF19]

It'll be good to play a 4E rpg.  I honestly don't get the blind hate it gets.  I actually like the stuff it added, like classes and races.

[MasterChanger]

LotRS, I'd get behind the idea of a petition.

[Kanten]

Thorne_underfoot wrote...

I have seen it stated that the license is multi-tiered and that is where my supposition comes from.  I am guessing that the license isn't all D&D or DDO would never have flown.  So I am guessing that it is not anywhere near as cut and dried as it may appear (i.e. "all Forgotten Realms").  But I am open to being wrong.  Just saying the facts don't seem to support the conclusions.

DDO was covered under the license though. Hasbro signed the licensing agreement with Atari for the use of D&D mechanics and settings in video games.

Hasbro is currently suing Atari for that license back on the grounds that Atari breached the terms of that agreement. If Atari loses that case and forfeits the license, this game can't be made, that's how it is.

Modifié par Kanten, 24 août 2010 - 11:48 .

[Sir_Rule]

If only Atari and Bioware could come back to an agreement. Dosn't Atari know that Bioware is the fan-favourite for a D&D PC game? Maybe it's a money problem? 0_0

[Kanten]

Sir_Rule wrote...

If only Atari and Bioware could come back to an agreement. Dosn't Atari know that Bioware is the fan-favourite for a D&D PC game? Maybe it's a money problem? 0_0

Bioware being an EA subsidiary sort of puts a block on that scenario.

Modifié par Kanten, 25 août 2010 - 02:30 .

[NeoDarke]

Seagloom wrote...

Thanks for the find Tonytobinus. A pity it's bad news from my perspective. Those who posited this would be a Guild Wars/City of Heroes sort of game look to have been proven correct if that interview is any indication. I was clinging to the hope that this forge system was a fancy name for their custom content creator, but it looks to be an in-game feature. No toolset and more so, no DM client has essentially eliminated my interest in Neverwinter. There is always the next single player D&D game, I guess...

I would say that the Architect system was pretty awesome,but then  remembered. That was after Paragon studios plit from Cryptic, so... Yeah... I have no idea how good this will be. *sigh* Why couldn't it have been Paragon doing it? CoH has been doing good after the split. Less nerfs.

*edit* Sorry about that stupid long post. I have no idea what's wrong with this stupid thing. It's like a broken string.

[moderator's edit: yanked out the gobbledegook]

Modifié par dunniteowl, 25 août 2010 - 12:31 .

[Haplose]

SFF19 wrote...

It'll be good to play a 4E rpg.  I honestly don't get the blind hate it gets.  I actually like the stuff it added, like classes and races.

Some people do like variety. For example spell - type effects limited to caster classes, etc. Unique, distinct classes. I don't want my Barbarian to have caster-like "powers".
Spells having actual meaning and value - even the humble Magic Missile being cast only when the need calls.

Interesting, complex builds and multiclassing. Yes, also power-building.

From what I read 4th ed. reduced options, instead of adding them. Sure, there are lots of classes. So what, if most play the same - or rather there are a few archetypes and within each archetype there are multiple class names which play the same.

Variety is the spice of life, you know.

[Urk]

Legally there's a difference between an existing property and a property in development. That's why the big rush to release. It sounds to me like Atari's lawyers have decided they can't win, and Hasbro has no desire to settle for anything less than getting rid of Atari completely (a wise decision IMHO considering Atari's grossly incompetent handling of NWN2). The D&D license is one of Atari's biggest meal tickets.Their only hope is to delay the court proceedings and try to get NWN3 out before they lose the franchise, then hope the judge is stupid enough to believe that the property was developed in good faith.

Modifié par Urk, 25 août 2010 - 08:21 .

[The Fred]

So, Wizards have actually acknowledged Neverwinter. Given they say it's "hugely popular", might they see the vaule of NWN games?

[Sir_Rule]

Oh, the barbarians and non-caster classes don't actually have "magic powers", that's a misconception.  That's what I thought at first as well until I really looked into it.  The options, I guarantee are still plentiful. 

For example:  Fighter's have a power called 'Grappling Strike'.  That's not an actual "power" per-say.  It just means that on your turn, you may hit then choke a biatch .  In no way, shape or form is your fighter 'waggling his fingers' to cast 'Grappling Strike' and the only 'finger waggling' that is happening really, is the fingers around your opponent's neck.

Haplose wrote...

SFF19 wrote...

It'll be good to play a 4E rpg.  I honestly don't get the blind hate it gets.  I actually like the stuff it added, like classes and races.

Some people do like variety. For example spell - type effects limited to caster classes, etc. Unique, distinct classes. I don't want my Barbarian to have caster-like "powers".
Spells having actual meaning and value - even the humble Magic Missile being cast only when the need calls.

Interesting, complex builds and multiclassing. Yes, also power-building.

From what I read 4th ed. reduced options, instead of adding them. Sure, there are lots of classes. So what, if most play the same - or rather there are a few archetypes and within each archetype there are multiple class names which play the same.

Variety is the spice of life, you know.

[dunniteowl]

Licensing: The indicators I have read regarding licensing are these:

1) Atari has exclusive rights to publish/produce all video games with the D&D IPs

2) Atari has to have approval of all D&D projects from WotC/Hasbro before any project can be fully developed.

3) Atari must coordinate with WotC/Hasbro on any major feature or aspect of mechanics or storyline that may have an effect (or a percieved one) on any IP Canon material.

4) All products slated for development are processed through an information line that includes WotC/Hasbro final say on any aspect of the project.

In other words, while Atari may hold the license to produce and publish, they tend to be on a very short leash.

That said, this indicates to me that:

1) Atari is either grossly reckless and intends to flout WotC/Hasbro's license by saying, "It's D&D and we have the exclusive license to publish and produce it, so there:

Taking this tack would suggest that they believe that they can do so, because they presented to WotC/Hasbro the NWN O idea in May of 2009 and the lawsuit began in December 2009. As nothing seems to have happened in court since January of this year, maybe they decided to gamble on producing anyway. Completely speculative on my part. This may also be due to the issue that there is no 'official' indication from WotC/Hasbro to cease and desist any production/development of current projects.

2) or: Atari and WotC/Hasbro have decided to table their differences for 'current' projects in this economic climate (which is hard on both companies) and see what happens with the new venture.

Taking this tack seems to be more accurate to what's going on. The approval process as outlined a while back by OEI (when making NWN2 and just prior to going "gold") indicates that changes are made, submitted to Atari (from the developer), then Atari vettes it, sends it on to WotC/Hasbro for further inspection, W/H makes suggestions or stipulations (either for or against certain things), sends it back to Atari, who then determine what to do about it, then send those requests/demands back to the developer. The changes are made and the process repeats itself.

The above process is paraphrased, though it is indicative of the way things run for any D&D product being developed. As the IP holder, WotC maintains final say (with Hasbro, their parent company's, say so) in any of these things, including whether or not the plug can even be inserted into the wall socket. In other words, WotC has the power to kill a project at any time simply by saying, "No."

According to several comments in the interview, it is clear that the process is moving along with WotC oversight and communication. There is nothing official about the lawsuit, but that doesn't mean that nothing in the lawsuit has changed. In fact, all indicators are there that say the lawsuit may be moot. Atari is pressing forward with an official announcement of this IP, which was leaked, but not confirmed officially, back in May of 2009, 5 months after Atari bought Cryptic outright. The lawsuit wasn't filed until December.

This may be one of two things: Atari argued effectively that, as they were already working on this before the lawsuit that the lawsuit shouldn't affect it. If so, then it would be in WotC/Hasbro's best interests to see their way to allowing to the development to continue (no money comes out of their pocket directly) and provide Atari with the opportunity to save itself or hang itself with what rope they allow Atari to have.

The other possibility that presents itself is: Atari, in a fit of desperation, made all sorts of backchannel negotiations (remember, the lawsuit was filed in December, the issues cropped up, according to the filing, way back in June/July just post sale of their European outfits (Atari's parent, Infogrames) to Namco Bandai) that we are not yet privy to where they promised the moon to WotC/Hasbro, using this product as a 'last chance' sort of thing to prove they deserve to hold onto the license.

In either case, it's officially announced and the project is moving forward. It does appear WotC at least is providing regular oversight and feedback, based on key comments made in the interview first posted. That it's being tied in with the release of the new books penned by R. A. Salvatore also indicates a strong lock step with WotC, as they are the ones that make those kinds of decisions for the books in the D&D multiverse.

I can only conclude that a lot has occurred with regard to the lawsuit that we just don't have the 'fly on the wall' ability to hear of just yet. Irrespective of that, this is a very strong indication that if we do hear anything more about the lawsuit, it should be relatively definitive.

Any extra D&D video game is (conditionally) a good thing. If nothing else it helps to promote other D&D related products already out there. And, as I know both NWN and NWN2 will still be around for a good many years to come, when folks get tired of "not grinding for XP and just killing the same old monsters" again and again, in these UGC (user generated content) offerings that cannot possibly hold a candle to what either NWN or NWN2 can do in terms of story and variety, then they'll quite possibly wander on over to these older, more richly complex systems and first go, "Whoa," then they'll be like, "whoa," and then they'll be like, "WHOA!"

So I see this as an overall positive for this Community. And again, if the lawsuit isn't so much an issue as to allow this to move, then maybe we can get a 1.24 patch after all our patience.



dunniteowl

(who also happens to like the petition idea very, VERY much.)

[dunniteowl]

Please, folks, let's place any further discussion of NWNO in the appropriate thread and let's leave this one to a possible NWN3 or at least a spiritual successor to a moddable cRPG w/Toolset game.

Here's that link: About Neverwinter MMO

Thanks,

dunniteowl

[Thorne_underfoot]

Thanks for the clarification Dunniteowl.

[Tonytobinus]

Sounds good.



P.S.,dunniteowl - I just went and checked out what's going on at the NW Citadel link you posted a few pages back, and good lord! I'm definitely adding that site to my hotbar.

[dunniteowl]

Glad to hear you're excited. I know I am. If nothing else, I fully believe that what we're doing there with a potential Open Source Community Driven effort is to provide a blueprint and what amounts to a Community Manifesto of our Minimum Expectations in cRPG w/Toolset Games. At best, it will be the spiritual successor to these two great games already out.

dunniteowl

[Count Buggula]

Completely underwhelmed by the new Neverwinter game. I've completely given up on Hasbro/WotC and D&D in general, after the 4th edition fiasco. Screw them and their lawsuits - work with Paizo intead and make a CRPG based off the Pathfinder RPG. THAT would be a good spiritual successor to Neverwinter Nights.

[Urk]

That would be a perfect world solution, Buggula. And there are a few mad-hatters thinking about it. It might even start to happen if NWN3 is a total pooch screw. But the amount of work involved with creating a 3d engine and filling it with enough content to make it useful out of the box is awe inspiring. Very few fan projects of that magnitude even make it to Beta.



We do have a head start in content, but if Atari wanted to be richards about it: technically they own all the fan created CC that's been released for NWN. That could mean starting from scratch with art assets.

[dunniteowl]

Actually, all the original models in all art assets made outside of the toolset are still the property of the respective creators. Most models in their initial form and creation are not ready for any specific game, per se and the caveat in the EULA is that the items have to work ONLY in the NWN/2 Game engine alone. This means a GMax or 3DS Max model (or some other application's creation) is, for all intents and purposes, not subject to the EULA as they don't meet that condition of exclusivity.



Models released on the Vault or used in PWs? Well, the blueprints and .2da's, yes, those are 'officially' technically Atari owned once used in that fashion. However, the original base models are not made inside the application known as the toolset and are not ONLY able to run on the NWN engine(s) alone. Thus, if artists Community wide were invited to share their talents and models for a new endeavor that didn't use the NWN/2 blueprints and .2da's, etc, then they would be legally able to do so.



I suppose it might require them to 'pull' their support from the older games, but I think that might not be the case.



This is to provide assurance that the EULA, due to it's specific stipulations, voids the problem of using the art assets that were not created in the game's toolset and that do not operate ONLY inside the NWN/2 Engine. Art assets fall into this category of not fulfilling those legal requirements and thus escape the black hole of vengeful copyright.

Now, IANAL, however, the way the EULA reads is pretty straightforward and the art assets (ne: models) made by the Community do not actually fit the restrictions as long as the original models made from their respective applications are what's being used and not the ones that are tweaked to run in NWN/2.



Just so you know it has been being paid attention to. In this case, pending Community support, the Plan9 Project (okay okay, we'll get a better name later) could be light years ahead in this endeavor just because art assets is such a time consumer. And, if the authors of the Community either release those original assets in whatever form is required to run in the engine being made, or desire to redo their original creations, then, potentially, the assets race is already well under way.

Something to consider.

best regards,

dunniteowl

[Count Buggula]

Urk wrote...

That would be a perfect world solution, Buggula. And there are a few mad-hatters thinking about it. It might even start to happen if NWN3 is a total pooch screw. But the amount of work involved with creating a 3d engine and filling it with enough content to make it useful out of the box is awe inspiring. Very few fan projects of that magnitude even make it to Beta.

We do have a head start in content, but if Atari wanted to be richards about it: technically they own all the fan created CC that's been released for NWN. That could mean starting from scratch with art assets.

I know some of the higher-ups over at Paizo have stated that they're perfectly willing to do a CRPG, but they don't have the resources to do it in-house - so they're open to licencing out to a "reputable" development studio to do such a game.  Honestly, though, I'm not sure who is left in the video-game market that could do it.  I don't see Bioware as a possibility at all, seeing as how gung-ho they are about their own IP now.  Obsidian, maybe.  Bethesda would be cool but I don't really see that happening - not when they have their hands full with their own IP.  Aside from Obsidian, who's still around that could make such an RPG (and has enough credibility for Paizo to give them the green light)?