49 réponses à ce sujet

[cipher86]

Thinking of making a four person party to go from BG1 to the end, want the Cleric to be the only frontline fighter.

[Ponce de Leon]

In BG1, cleric is not as good as a fighter as it is in BG2, but it has higher HPs than Mages or theives, and can wear heavy armors as well as offer some healing spells. Also remember that on level 5 onwards, cleric can cast skeletons. 1 per level, level 8 max, 8 skeletons per casting x4 (I believe 4 is max in BG1) = army of 32 skeletons... which is good.



Still, outside of the casting zone, Clerics can still offer some punch with draw upon holy might, chant, bless, aid and other combat aiding spells. I won't say it will be easy, but certainly doable.

[Irrbloss]

Clerics are unimpressive as tanks. Druids are better. Neither are good for melee without fighter levels.

[wise grimwald]

I would get grandmastery in one clerical melee weapon as a fighter before dualling to cleric.

As a cleric you can then put proficiencies in sling and whichever fighting style you want.



Alternatively as another race you can have a fighter/cleric. With one of the standard mods you can still get grandmastery in a weapon I believe, so long as you are a fighter as well as another class.

[Reticent]

Irrbloss wrote...

Clerics are unimpressive as tanks. Druids are better. Neither are good for melee without fighter levels.

I'm not sure I would just blanket say that Druids are better tanks.  A normal Druid needs really uncommon gear to get their AC into tank-worthy ranges.  This would probably be the hierarchy I'd put them in:

Very high level Cleric/Mages > Ranger/Cleric > Figther/Druid > Fighter/Cleric > Shapeshifter* > very well geared Druid > Priest of Helm > all other Clerics > all other Druids

*assuming non-modded Shapeshifter monopolizing stackable AC gear

Though I'd say anything at the "all other Cleric" stage or better can tank in the meatshield sense if their Con is high.

Modifié par Reticent, 20 juillet 2010 - 03:53 .

[Ryuken87]

If you go with a Priest of Lathander you can get bonus attacks with their special ability. Priests of Helm can boost their attacks as well but you are stuck with their weapon (which isn't bad iirc). Their AC should be decent in SoA as you get the best armour and shields. In ToB things will be tougher since enemies hit harder with better thac0s, but you can still get an ok damage resistance with Armour of Faith, Defender of Easthaven, Roranach's Horn etc, but you lack Hardiness. An R/C or dwarf F/C will be a MUCH better frontliner offensively and defensively.



@Reticent, Druids get Ironskins, so will be able to tank better against tougher enemies who will hit often een if your AC is decent.

[Reticent]

@Reticent, Druids get Ironskins, so will be able to tank better against tougher enemies who will hit often een if your AC is decent.

Oh I know that well, it is just that most single class Druids have poor AC for the majority of their adventuring careers.  While they can eventually get equipment that would qualify as spoilers, it isn't like they start out able to wear platemail in BG1.

[Guilebrush]

Just to reinforce Reticent's point, single class Druids also hit a large leveling wall midway through SoA. This could prove problematic if the druid is your lone front line character throughout the trilogy.

Modifié par Guilebrush, 20 juillet 2010 - 04:43 .

[Irrbloss]

Reticent wrote...

Irrbloss wrote...

Clerics are unimpressive as tanks. Druids are better. Neither are good for melee without fighter levels.

I'm not sure I would just blanket say that Druids are better tanks.  A normal Druid needs really uncommon gear to get their AC into tank-worthy ranges.

Tanks only need to be able to absorb damage. AC helps, but Ironskins doesn't strictly require it. My point was that druids have something going for them in the tank area, whereas clerics mainly have spells that make them better at melee (but they still need APR of they're going to be hopeless, buff spells or no).

Modifié par Irrbloss, 20 juillet 2010 - 06:00 .

[Reticent]

Irrbloss wrote...

Tanks only need to be able to absorb damage. AC helps, but Ironskins doesn't strictly require it. My point was that druids have something going for them in the tank area, whereas clerics mainly have spells that make them better at melee (but they still need APR of they're going to be hopeless, buff spells or no).

For ToB and a handful of the toughest fights in SoA I completely agree as those opponents tend to render the defense provided by AC trivial.

However, when considering the saga as a whole from walking out of Candlekeep at level 1 onward, I would think the vast majority of fights favor AC- particularly considering Druids won't have Ironskins until something like level 11.

One minor caveat- BGII Druids can't provide their own protection from fear and have limited avenues for acquiring it.  This can actually be quite the big disadvantage relative to Clerics depending on the rest of the party make-up.

Modifié par Reticent, 20 juillet 2010 - 06:53 .

[Irrbloss]

Well, In BG1 you have Ankheg plate and druids level very quickly in the beginning.

Ankheg plate allows druids to have comparable AC to clerics. Druids "only" need 200k XP to reach level 11. Even if you play BG1 with the XP cap in place there isn't much of a gap before they get level 5 spells. Of course, saying that is rather wiley, as the Ironskins cast by a lower-level druid will disappear in a hurry, especially with low AC. But I never said druids were good tanks, merely that they do better than clerics.

[Ponce de Leon]

I'm still not that convinced. I prefer Clerics still.

And besides, druids can only be the boring true neutral alignment.

If we look from a Tutu/Trilogy point of view though : as casters, Druid win for their kits in general... make them quite strong. Avenger can throw those nasty chromatic orbs or disable enemies with Web (note that I killed Drizzt with a level 10 Avenger. It's very possible, especially with a super fast sword spider). Shapeshifters, truth to be told I never actually tried. That last one, the animal one gets those insane spirit thingies which only the casual magic missile appear to harm.



Clerics on the other hand get the Boon of Lathander which is obviously a good combat ability, especially on higher levels, while even dual-wielding (but I am talking about levels higher than the BG1 cap)

Or that Helm Sword which is rather nasty, especially at low levels where casting is not all that important (it's also a backstab weapon, for low-level PoH turned thieves)

Or the elemental barrier from the PoT, which is also a great way to keep yourself out of lightning bolts and other casual stuffies that can kill you fast.



Also, the three priest spells (at least on Tutu) on level 1 don't last just 6 seconds... or at least, in the older version they didn't.

[Reticent]

Irrbloss wrote...

Well, In BG1 you have Ankheg plate ....

True, there is that (I wasn't so sure how spoiler sensitive this forum is so I was avoiding mentioning it).  Still, I'd say that a BG1 Druid isn't a tank at all until and unless it is gotten and that might make the OP's scenario pretty rough in the beginning.
Regardless, yeah- neither class is by itself an ideal tank.

[Ponce de Leon]

Well, I soloed a cleric through ToB... the guy had a pretty darned low AC and dual wielded the flail of ages and... something else (I don't remember! ) and had a THAC0 of -16 and -11 with 4 APR. With a thief dual or multi, that could have been 5 with no problem. And not to mention clerics can do max damage with a weapon for a very long time... As well as having 25 strength and higher Dex and Con.... As well as an auxiliary army...



And yeah, Cleric is my favorite class, so it's natural I'll defend it.

[Sicio Starstra]

The BG1 Druid was a weaker version of the cleric that still couldn't fight. if you looked at them comparatively , i think there was one or two spells a druid could cast that a cleric couldn't, while a cleric had at least 5 or 6 decent ones a druid couldn't use.

In BG2 options got a lot better, more magical weapons, better armor and magic items, anything is possible in BG2, you just have to tweak it.

Speaking as a strictly vanilla player though, clerics can use crom faeyr, while druids end up with the staff of rillifane, which wasn't that great as I recall

[Ponce de Leon]

Crom is good, but only if you don't have time to buff up. Normally, Righteous magic (I believe, or was it Holy Power? or Both?) and Draw Upon Holy might together will lower your THAC0 heavenly, as well as give you HPs and a great boost to strength which reaches 25 even in the quicker SoA stages. Not to mention NPP which is nice (but I think Druid have those too?). Clerics can use Balduran's Cheese shield too, and have less troubles with those floating lads. But of course, all this is NOT Baldur's Gate.

[dabbister]

dark-lauron wrote...

Well, I soloed a cleric through ToB... the guy had a pretty darned low AC and dual wielded the flail of ages and... something else (I don't remember! ) and had a THAC0 of -16 and -11 with 4 APR. With a thief dual or multi, that could have been 5 with no problem. And not to mention clerics can do max damage with a weapon for a very long time... As well as having 25 strength and higher Dex and Con.... As well as an auxiliary army...

And yeah, Cleric is my favorite class, so it's natural I'll defend it.

While I agree with you that Clerics make better tanks than Druids Im puzzled how you got so many attacks?

I recently completed a run with my Priest of Lathander/Thief (dual class) and with belm and the other weapon that gives you + attacks I had 4 attacks. Using boon of lathander I had 5 attacks.
Using Improved haste, 10 attacks.

So much fun

But Im not sure how you had 4 attacks with your pureclass cleric, were you counting haste/improved haste with it?

[Ponce de Leon]

1 with main weapon

2 with second weapon

3 with boon

4 with haste

Sure you can transform it into 6 with improved haste (those gauntlets I believe? That give Imp. Haste for 30 secs?)



Note : potions were used for haste effect. The boots don't really work this way (only accelerate you). It's a bit of an unconventional mean to reach the 4 APRs but it still works one way.

[Reticent]

Druids are actually my favorite class, I just wouldn't try to tank with one at level one (especially if I had no idea what magic items were in the game or how to get them).



...and if I recall correctly, Shapeshift Greater Werewolf + Bhaalspawn DUHM = STR 25 DEX 24 CON 25 with no equipment at all

[Ponce de Leon]

But DuHM won't last forever (not the spell... I mean, you know)

Still, yeah, that's quite a high set of offensive stats.

[Irrbloss]

dark-lauron wrote...

But DuHM won't last forever (not the spell... I mean, you know)

I hope you aren't trying to argue that in favour of a class that's entirely dependent on its short-lasting spells. Druids get Ironskins, Fire Elementals and eventually Nature's Beauty to help them tank, all of which last forever.
Clerics get what to help them tank? Holy Power and Righteous Magic give them a few hit points but 20-40 extra HP don't help you that much. They get a few other nice spells to help them with their damage, but that's not tanking (and it's not like druids are lacking in that department either).

[dabbister]

dark-lauron wrote...

Note : potions were used for haste effect. The boots don't really work this way (only accelerate you). It's a bit of an unconventional mean to reach the 4 APRs but it still works one way.

Ah, the duration of those potions is quite long so I catch your drift.
Also if you factor in Defender of Easthaven the cleric looks even better, if people are only thinking about damage absorbing. Sure that doesnt replace ironskins but still.

Modifié par dabbister, 20 juillet 2010 - 08:20 .

[Sicio Starstra]

[/quote]
I hope you aren't trying to argue that in favour of a class that's entirely dependent on its short-lasting spells. Druids get Ironskins, Fire Elementals and eventually Nature's Beauty to help them tank, all of which last forever.
Clerics get what to help them tank? Holy Power and Righteous Magic give them a few hit points but 20-40 extra HP don't help you that much. They get a few other nice spells to help them with their damage, but that's not tanking (and it's not like druids are lacking in that department either).

[/quote]

But those spells, apart from Iron Skin, make the Druid come across more as a mage then a tank, call on lightning, summons, fire storm, all of these really are just nature based mage spells

Modifié par Sicio Starstra, 20 juillet 2010 - 08:22 .

[Irrbloss]

Sicio Starstra wrote...

But those spells, apart from Iron Skin, make the Druid come across more as a mage then a tank, call on lightning, summons, fire storm, all of these really are just nature based mage spells

I fail to see your point. It helps them tank and that's that.
Besides, mages are the best tanks in the game.
(Clerics are not restricted from using Fire Storm.)

Modifié par Irrbloss, 20 juillet 2010 - 08:30 .

[Ponce de Leon]

For me Tank doesn't mean aided by summons. If it would be so then a mage with a Planetar and Mordy-swords and haste everything up would be invincible (along with the mage battling up the ranks of enemies with spells like Tenser transformation and many other). But that's not my point. Summons will make someone a summoner, not a Tank. I am talking straight alone one single class tank, the cleric, against the druid and its defensive abilities. No AoE spells or summons or other spells that damage. Only protective/boosting spells. A fighter doesn't rely on attacking spells for the battles. Just on a few defenses potions can grant or other party members' defensive spells.