49 réponses à ce sujet

[dabbister]

Exactly, couldn't agree more. Besides if you want to talk about fire elemental for druid you can talk about animate dead for cleric, but I digress.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

By the way, even if a cleric can reach strength 25 without it, damage wise Crom Faeyr is still one of the best weapons for them.

[corey_russell]

The only thing about the Crom Faeyr is you don't get it until late in the game. I think the flail of ages is a solid performer for a cleric. I had a fighter/cleric who dual-wielded the flail of ages and the wyvern's tail (+2 flail, plus poision damage) and he did great with that setup for most of SoA.

[Irrbloss]

dark-lauron wrote...

For me Tank doesn't mean aided by summons. If it would be so then a mage with a Planetar and Mordy-swords and haste everything up would be invincible (along with the mage battling up the ranks of enemies with spells like Tenser transformation and many other). But that's not my point. Summons will make someone a summoner, not a Tank. I am talking straight alone one single class tank, the cleric, against the druid and its defensive abilities. No AoE spells or summons or other spells that damage. Only protective/boosting spells. A fighter doesn't rely on attacking spells for the battles. Just on a few defenses potions can grant or other party members' defensive spells.

Iron Skins alone still beat the cleric spells when it comes to tanking. Clerics don't have enough HP to benefit much from partial damage resistance (DoE and Armor of Faith). Their spells help a little, but only last 1 round per level and casting both Holy Power and Righteous Magic takes a little less than 2 rounds. Additionally, since druids don't take physical damage as long as they have Iron Skins up, it is possible for them to renew the spell in the heat of battle.

But I grow weary of this.

Modifié par Irrbloss, 20 juillet 2010 - 10:12 .

[Ponce de Leon]

Err... Yes, but try remembering the Flail of Ages.

Ok, enough of this, I wouldn't like to make a flame war out of this. I was just pointing out my "ideas"... ya know, cleric lover, druid hater.

[Irrbloss]

dark-lauron wrote...

Err... Yes, but try remembering the Flail of Ages.

Are you going to dual-wield them? Clerics can only put one pip in Two Weapon Style, so that's making their already bad THAC0 (spells only last 1 round per level, after that they have to run away and refresh) significantly worse.
But FoA isn't tanking, it's offence. Without DoE they don't stand a prayer as tanks.

Okay, this is my last post (because now I'm going to bed. So there.)

[Ponce de Leon]

Goodnight!

But I am not considering timers so much, because if you play the right way, battles end pretty fast (unless it's a big bad battle that is going the wrong way )

as for FoA... it's a good weapon, especially because of mage-killing. Don't really understand why it isn't a tanking weapon, but oh well, I still love its color (yes the golden color of it )

[Humanoid_Taifun]

@ Irrbloss: Why do you think FoA is not a tanking weapon? Reducing the enemy's attack speed improves your survival chances and getting through a mage's stoneskins does the same.

[Dante2377]

If the single-class cleric you're looking at is your PC or self created if doing multiplayer and you're planning on going through to TOB, there's almost no reason not to start as fighter or ranger and dual immediately. You're trading off 89,000 XP, which at higher levels is less than 1 level. In exchange you're going to be able to put *** in dual wield and ** in weapon of choice. That will put you at 3 attacks/rd once your fighter levels get reactivated (going to 6 when your mage improved hastes you), plus higher hit points with better con modifier, plus way better thaco. If that character is going to be a front-line character, all of that is way more valuable than 1 level of cleric spells. Any semi-experienced BG2 player will be able to play through the early dual class.



As for FoA, it's one of the top weapons available in SOA - an early game +3 weapon, that's free, that is great against casters (triple elemental damage) and melee (slow no save). Once you get to higher levels in SOA and then TOB, most enemies are going to make their saves, so the weapons with effects that have saves become less effective. the FOA is upgradeable AND with NO save also plays defense as it cuts enemy attacks in half. I usually leave it as +4 so I can use improved haste on that character.



Whenever I'm planning a power game (e.g. when i had difficultly mods like SCS2), the first weapon i assign to the character that will get the most main hand attacks is the FoA.

[Shadow_Leech07]

cipher86 wrote...

Thinking of making a four person party to go from BG1 to the end, want the Cleric to be the only frontline fighter.

They are pretty good tanks I'll say.  But in BG1 it is best to use ranged weapons, so equip a sling and let it rip!

[Irrbloss]

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...

@ Irrbloss: Why do you think FoA is not a tanking weapon? Reducing the enemy's attack speed improves your survival chances and getting through a mage's stoneskins does the same.

I don't count FoA as a tanking weapon because a it's effectiveness is entirely dependent on your offensive capabilities. Yes, FoA can effectively boost your defence by slowing your opponent but clerics do not have the APR for this to happen. Maybe if they are up against a single opponent, but what kind of tank only functions against single opponents? Clerics are second row characters and they remain second row characters even with FoA. Druids are also second row characters, but unlike clerics they have something that allows them to survive at the front, should they find themselves there.

Shadow_Leech07 wrote...

They are pretty good tanks I'll
say.

Arguments, please. What will allow a cleric to function as a tank?

Modifié par Irrbloss, 21 juillet 2010 - 11:46 .

[Guilebrush]

I really don't see the point of arguing the merits of single class Druid tanking vs single class Cleric tanking. We can safely conclude that Druids have the higher potential when it comes to absorbing damage through the sheer power of Ironskins, plus having Nature's Beauty and Regeneration can't hurt the cause either. Druids however do have the nasty drawback of being stuck at level 14 (lower spell count and caster levels) for an obnoxious amount of time and this coupled with their stricter gear selection keeps them from being ideal tanks as a -single class- character.

Clerics as we know have a more versatile buff set, some nice added tools to their arsenal (such as turn undead) and have access to a superior gear pool. One item in particular deserves specific mention, I'm sure most of you know which I'm talking about, but since this is a no spoiler section I wont go further than that. Remember the OP wasn't exactly asking which class could absorb damage the best as a single class divine caster frontliner, which if that was the case the Druid inarguably has the superior card in his/her deck.

Remember effective tanking isn't always simply about simple damage absorption. Control and prevention while technically not traditional tanking achieves the same role in most cases. A running/dead/otherwise unaware (fiends) enemy is an enemy that deals no damage. Here the single class Cleric has the Druid beat. At the very least, the simple fact that you don't slog through 150000xp stuck at the same level, giving you more spells, hitpoints, superior saving throws and a better Thac0 to draw from to handle more varied situations without resorting to resting too often. Things once again tip back to the favor of the Druid once this barrier is broken but that's a huge portion of the trilogy.

Can we all just agree that a single class Divine caster does not make an ideal front line character for a majority of the Trilogy? It can most certainly be done but why suffer unless you're doing it for a specific gameplay challenge? Dualling from a fighter kit or using a ranger/cleric or fighter/druid multiclass achieves the desired goal so much more efficiently without really breaking the spirit of the idea.

Modifié par Guilebrush, 21 juillet 2010 - 02:11 .

[Ponce de Leon]

Irrbloss wrote...

I don't count FoA as a tanking weapon because a it's effectiveness is entirely dependent on your offensive capabilities. Yes, FoA can effectively boost your defence by slowing your opponent but clerics do not have the APR for this to happen. Maybe if they are up against a single opponent, but what kind of tank only functions against single opponents? Clerics are second row characters and they remain second row characters even with FoA. Druids are also second row characters, but unlike clerics they have something that allows them to survive at the front, should they find themselves there.

I said it and repeat it : those somethings are NOT tanking abilities. I don't consider a fighter as a tank if it uses Vhailor's helm to make a twin of the tank. 
Tank for me is something that gets into battle, (after minimal preparations) and kills everyone without a use of offensive, or summoning spells. If a tank would use other abilities, then it would be a semi-tank. 
In real life, it's not like a tank (the armored vehicle) can use a super laser ray to destroy enemies just because a mad scientist is driving it. However should the scientist provide a harder armor to the tank BEFORE the battle, that's a different story.
Long story short : Defensive, power boosting abilities BEFORE the battle can be considered tank-ish. Summoning and letting the SUMMONS do the tanking is not tank-ish. 
My opinions though. 

[Dante2377]

Seems like you're just arguing about the definition of "tank". In many games, tank just = decoy/meatshield to absorb damage while your high dps (damage per second) guys take out the enemy. Similar to creating a high-AC (72 AC) decoy in Icewind Dale 2 to deal with the HoF mode monsters - all that guy does is absorb enemy hits and his role is just to "not die".

For me, "tank" = front line character who engages with the enemy at the frontline with melee weapons.

Also when talking about how effective they are, how often you're engaging in battle vs resting plays a large part. Just talking about one battle, where you can use a lot of buff spells on a multi or dual class character or using once-per-day magic items (like the mirror image on Ilbratha), that will enhance a tank as opposed to a non-spellcaster, but being able to go through a series of battles or dungeon/part of a map without resting (since that's not always an option) is also a factor.

Obviously d-lauron defines a tank one way (probably a more traditional 1st/2nd edition D&D view of a tank), whereas Irrbloss defines it as "don't die, absorb damage".

Two different types of roles.

Modifié par Dante2377, 21 juillet 2010 - 03:40 .

[Irrbloss]

Guilebrush wrote...

Remember effective tanking isn't always simply about simple damage absorption. Control and prevention while technically not traditional tanking achieves the same role in most cases. A running/dead/otherwise unaware (fiends) enemy is an enemy that deals no damage.

Nice try, but d-l outlawed that in an attempt to favour clerics. Druids have the more offence-oriented spell book and they win in spellcasting and disabling unless you place arbitrary restrictions on what spells you are allowed to cast.

Can we all just agree that a single class Divine caster does not make an ideal front line character for a majority of the Trilogy?

Why does that sound familar?

Irrbloss wrote...

Clerics are unimpressive as tanks [because the majority of their spells are about enhancing melee but clerics do not have the APR to take effective advantage of that].
Druids are better [because of Iron Skins]. Neither are good for melee without fighter
levels.

dark-lauron wrote...
I said it and repeat it : those somethings
are NOT tanking abilities. I don't consider a fighter as a tank if it
uses Vhailor's helm to make a twin of the tank. 
[...]
Long story
short : Defensive, power boosting abilities BEFORE the battle can be
considered tank-ish. Summoning and letting the SUMMONS do the tanking is
not tank-ish. 
My opinions though. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/ninja.png[/smilie]

Didn't
we already go over this? Oh yeah, we did:

Irrbloss wrote...



Iron Skins alone still beat the cleric
spells when it comes to tanking.

[Guilebrush]

@Irrbloss

I agree with pretty much all the points you've made (re-read my post ) except for one caveat: Druids getting stuck at level 14 and to a lesser extent their poor item draw. Both Divine classes have their pros and cons. Both have ways to disable tough enemies albiet each is better against a different set. The bottom line though is Ironskins trumps anything a Cleric can pull out of its bag of tricks for pure physical damage avoidance. The problem is -Single class- Druids have terrible level progression until you get to ToB levels.

The problem with both is they have terrible APRs and the litany of weaknesses either choice has as a single class front line character is so easily alleviated by taking advantage of the multi or dual class system that I really see zero point on why people are arguing which one would be better. I think what everyone who's provided input in this thread has pointed out is neither case is anywhere close to the ideal solution. I posit that unless one has a certain masochistic approach or is playing within a certain challenge rule set, either single class choice will simply lead to uneeded extra resting or reloading with no real benefit.

[Reticent]

Guilebrush wrote...

@Irrbloss

I agree with pretty much all the points you've made (re-read my post ) except for one caveat: Druids getting stuck at level 14 and to a lesser extent their poor item draw. Both Divine classes have their pros and cons. Both have ways to disable tough enemies albiet each is better against a different set. The bottom line though is Ironskins trumps anything a Cleric can pull out of its bag of tricks for pure physical damage avoidance. The problem is -Single class- Druids have terrible level progression until you get to ToB levels.

Actually, the level 14 thing with Druids isn't nearly as bad in practice as it sounds.  The Druid has a big level advantage all through BG1 and the early part of SoA so that's already effectlvely half the saga (and from a simple survival/no-reload standpoint I'd say it is better to have the advantage early than late).

For the Druid, level 14 is not a bad place to be stalled at if you have to stall.  The game is spoiling you for XP at that point, so while other classes do catch up and pull ahead on level count the actual amount of time isn't that bad (especially if in a small party or solo).  The Druid has a level 7 spell slot so that is one free automatic win per rest (Nature's Beauty).  The Staff of Arundel can supplement level 5 and 6 spells so the spells per rest gap isn't so bad.  The Shapeshifter kit has Greater Werewolf at 14 so that de facto wins the tanking competition without bringing specific magic items into the comparison.

Then you hit level 15 and your Druid becomes superman.

[Ponce de Leon]

Irrbloss wrote...
Didn't
we already go over this? Oh yeah, we did:

Irrbloss wrote...



Iron Skins alone still beat the cleric
spells when it comes to tanking.

I didn't agree on THAT :crying:
You must be happy now, YOU MADE ME CRY!!!

[Irrbloss]

dark-lauron wrote...

You must be happy now, YOU MADE ME CRY!!!

Does that mean I can cash out my nerd victory and forget about this thread?

[Humanoid_Taifun]

I'm asking a lot of questions here, but why are summons disregarded in this comparison again?

It's like asking a soldier to kill somebody and when they draw their gun you stop them to explain: "I told you to do the job, not your gun. Now get over there and do it!"

[Ponce de Leon]

A gun is like a crossbow. Summons are like breeding an army of EVIL babies...

@Irrbloss : your decision actually. I still remain of my idea, although you did make me feel bad.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

H_T, being a hive mind of evil clone babies (with rabies), does not understand the problem.

[Ponce de Leon]

Let's put it this way. Summons are like breeding an army of completely ill-free Paladin babies with each their own mind.

[nimzar]

I seem to remember my Uber-priest being pretty good in the frontlines.



She was an Elven priest, rolled to have 19 dex, 18 str, 18 wis and some other stats. With the stat books in BG1 that put her Str:19, Dex:20, and Wis:21. Then with her fighting buffs she was a beast!

[mad cat from hell]

priest buffs are cool and strong until someone hurls remove magic at your party and it happens pretty much every caster battle Then you are like ok i would rebuff if only these guys stopped beating me.