34 réponses à ce sujet

[Captain Crash]

One of the Biotic upgrades you collect is on Jack's Loyalty Mission on Pragia.    Its attached to a console right next to one of the experiment tables.

Now my first couple of playthroughs I had no problem picking it up and using it as its part of the game.  But then it hit me, how has this biotic research been achieved.

The story on Pragia is heavily based on a rogue Cerberus Cell which used children in deadly experiments to enhance biotic powers.   The fact you collect this research on a medical table with restraints gives rise to the question of how this upgrade/research was obtained.  

If the upgrade was obtained because of these experiments on children (which the location of biotic upgrade would suggest) surely this is morality decision which Bioware haven't included or chose not to in game.  Effectively your enhancing your biotic powers based on the research done to Jack and the other children on Pragia.  Not a nice prospect if you ask me!

[wulf3n]

The damage is already done, no sense letting their suffering go to waste. At least you know what you'll do with it, will do some good in the galaxy so their deaths weren't in vain.

[kondel]

It is only data.



It is there, it has been done. There is no gain in leaving it be.



With other words: The evil has been done, it is over; lets learn what we can from it.

[Captain Crash]

I agree somewhat but its the same morality issue with the paragon end to destroying the Reaper Base. Your quite willing to accept horrific research done on children but your unwilling to accept horrific research done to create a baby Reaper?

[Dave of Canada]

Captain Crash wrote...

I agree somewhat but its the same morality issue with the paragon end to destroying the Reaper Base. Your quite willing to accept horrific research done on children but your unwilling to accept horrific research done to create a baby Reaper?

One involve experimentation, the other required genocide.

[Xenomorphwut]

would u object to the U.S. using human data gathered by the vivisection of living human beings, because we did, and the person who did it DIDN"T recieve punishment. But the U.S. didn't do the research, the japs did in WWII.

[Landline]

You know how much modern technology was developed or started development in 1930-1945 Germany? (Why is the shortened version of Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei consored?)

It's actually worse not to use the tech, if you don't their suffering was for nothing.

Modifié par Landline, 22 juillet 2010 - 01:17 .

[krasnoarmeets]

In terms of moral dilemmas, I think it's worse to leave it behind, because if destroyed in the blast it means that the 'research' served no purpose at all. Taking the data and applying it does not justify the means by which the data was obtained. In my opinion destroying the data is only adding insult to injury.

[klf]

So would you want to use data that n@ziss gained during the holocaust?

Modifié par klf, 22 juillet 2010 - 01:20 .

[Landline]

klf wrote...

So would you want to use data that ****s gained during the holocaust?

You do use tech that was developed then.

Ever heard of "Operation Paperclip"?

[Schuey19]

Captain Crash wrote...

I agree somewhat but its the same morality issue with the paragon end to destroying the Reaper Base. Your quite willing to accept horrific research done on children but your unwilling to accept horrific research done to create a baby Reaper?

I can't say I'd ever given it any thought until reading this thread, but now I think about it I would agree with you that it is a morality decision that hasn't been included.

I think a better comparison would be the Genophage research on Tuchunka.

Essentially it is the same moral choice: use/destroy research gathered in objectional circumstances.

The research on Tuchunka was gathered in pretty much the same way, and in fact was ultimately going to be used for a better cause.

[Inquisitor Recon]

I don't question where the loot comes from.

[Nashiktal]

A very creative way to look at a normally mundane video-game mechanic. I applaud your imagination and attachment to Jack.



Perhaps ill think twice before doing such mundane things in the ME3 playthroughs.

[Alexein]

Its an interesting question.



One of the moral reasons not to use information that was obtained immorally is that it on some level condones what they did. And may give some deluded individuals a reason to keep doing it.



Let's say right now, today, I am a scientist and i had an idea to cure cancer. Problem is i need human test subjects. So i go out and draft some volunteers.



I know that what i'm doing is incredibly illegal, immoral, inhuman, monstrous and evil too!



But i know that if i do find the cure, the world will use it, the world will not let such "knowledge go to waste". So even if i am imprisoned and executed for my actions, i die knowing i did good for the world.



yeah, i'm twisted and a lunatic but that's what i'm thinking.



By not using my cure, the world says to me "the ends do not justify the means. Sure you accept whatever punishment we dish out, but your victims didn't. What makes YOU so special that you can make the call and choose to sacrifice people just YOU can accept that sacrifice? You're not God buddy. By taking your cure we say that your sacrifice washes our hands of your crimes."



Is it our fault if we take the cure or the biotic upgrades? Ofcourse not, but are we being immoral in using it? i think we are. Because we're saying "if someone pays the price then it's ok."



The thing with morality is that some prices are too high to ever be paid.



Anyway, i'm just throwing it out there. Personally, I would take the data and use it. But i'm just an ass like that and what to kick ass harder in the game.

[TuringPoint]

It could easily be, and likely is, just generic information about biotics. The researchers needed to research information from other sources before running experiments, and from what we know their experiments weren't that successful. So the likelihood is, the upgrade is just general information about biotics that is floating out there in the galaxy, which they had the means to find - being a cell from Cerberus, and probably some of the best researchers and scientists out there.



If it were a moral dilemma, there would be some comment about it. It's not an unusual upgrade, and it's quite interchangeable with all the other biotic damage upgrades.

[Jigero]

Same can be said for using Jack entirely she's the product of the death of lots of children, shouldn't allowing her to help carry the same weight?

[Dave of Canada]

klf wrote...

So would you want to use data that n@ziss gained during the holocaust?

Most medical science these days has been accomplished only due to brutal experiments in WW2 from all around the world. It doesn't mean that those experiments were any worse, yet those who died can at least rest knowing that they didn't die in vain.

[Captain Crash]

Its quite an age old question actually when you do compare it to events in the past. Even though we may not like it a lot of research comes from the expense of suffering. Ultra-Sound for example has saved thousands of lives but the technology was developed as part of a military experiment designed to kill people.

To get back on topic, the issue is you dont have these experiments in your face so to speak. On Pragia your there witnessing first hand the cruel torture these children had. Yes you may do something good with the research but its come at a terrible price. One which is hard to justify in my book

Modifié par Captain Crash, 22 juillet 2010 - 09:58 .

[Kronner]

If you do not take it then the research was useless. Might as well make it useful against Collectors.

[Pacifien]

Sometimes I go digging into crates for credits...

Modifié par Pacifien, 22 juillet 2010 - 10:12 .

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

klf wrote...

So would you want to use data that n@ziss gained during the holocaust?

Yes. They data is already there. No more harm is being done. At that point it's a question between obtaining data or not obtaining data.

[Madman123456]

I never roleplayed that much to not get the upgrades.

If you do Roleplay, you should consider that quite a lot of Research with questionable Ethics has been done with the Goal in Mind to help Humanity.

"Scientists" have performed gruesome Experiments in Hopes that the Data they gathered would be used someday to help People. Since it's around, there would be no Harm.



You should consider that if you use Data from Experiments like that, you will validate the Experiments.



In my Opinion, such Data should not be used, not even to save People's lives, not even with the direct Permission of the Victim of those Experiments.

Not because the Data would be "tainted" or something; "Scientists" who would perform Experiments such as the ones on Pragia need to know that there is a distinct Possibility (which gets more probable with everyone that discards Data like that) that all the Work will be for nothing if they don't stay within basic ethical Boundaries.



"Unethical" Data may "further" the Goals of Humanity in one Way or another, but i'd rather develop new ways of reaching my Goals or, failing that, i prefer not reaching my Goals just so i'll be able to look at a Mirror.

[Spartas Husky]

wulf3n wrote...

The damage is already done, no sense letting their suffering go to waste. At least you know what you'll do with it, will do some good in the galaxy so their deaths weren't in vain.

Is just like the collector, base, this technology is based on taking lifes.

But unlike the base, you can keep it for yourself, and you can judge how to use it, or how not to.

So, since you can keep it for yourself, and decide how to best use it, there is no point in letting it go to waste.