702 réponses à ce sujet

[TMZuk]

That's right. Get rid of the killpoints, and let us attempt to create a more "realistic" feel to the game when it comes to killing, instead of the legalized and glorified mass-murderer approach.

XP per kill is a TERRIBLE oldfashioned idea, which most modern PnP RPG's, besides DnD, have long left behind.

It discourages any attempts at finding options other than fighting, and makes people chase around the whole map in order to wipe out every single opponent, and creates these absurd situations there was so many of in DA:O, where a party of four somehow manages to wipe out a forest full of werewolves.

One of the few good things that ME2 implemented was mission xp. A far better system, although it needs a lot of improvement over ME2. What it needs is:

-to actually present other options than fighting.

-hidden bonus xp for discovering stuff, finding solutions, sneaking past the guard etc, etc.

-more roleplay, as the combat in DA:O and even more in ME2 was so much just a filler between the actual RP situations.

-variable xp outcome, instead of the fixed amounts in ME2.

In ME2 the mission-xp system is marred by the fact that you have to fight all the time anyway. Playing a sneaky assasin type is impossile. That was perhaps possible to a degree in DA:O, but in order to get some xp, you had to kill, kill, kill. And truly, when reaching my fourth playthrough, I do wish I could fast-forward the combat.

Another thing I'd like to get rid of, or at least be able to disable is the achievements. Achievements are such a moodbreaker. It feels like some stupid arcade-game, and not as an RPG when those things suddenly flash on the screen. If people like them, then fine, just give those who don't like them the option of disabling them.

Modifié par TMZuk, 21 juillet 2010 - 01:51 .

[Chuvvy]

Get. The. **** out.

[joriandrake]

to tell the truth except important enemies you don't get XP in DDO neither, I would support a similar approach to it too, getting XP for missions and quests or achivements and such more instead

[Luke Bioware]

Yeah. It's way more realistic if you get a trillion points for handing in some ashes than if you get them kill for kill.

[Ravenwoud]

im only partialy agreeing,



its true that in DA:O i rather choose a way to kill my enemies rather then talking due to the xp (and sometiùmes the drop)

but i still think it has to stay there but at a lower rate.



also there will have to be a lot of substitutions for it then if we wanna lvl decently. thats something that was a big minus in GW as well. not enough lvls. so there should be more puzzles, more quests that aint all about killing. killing is needed and getting xp is needed ffrom it as well(otherwise nobody wants to kill anymore exept for sport).



you could for example split xp in 2 parts,

you have skill xp you get from using skills and techniques. combo's like shattering give more skill xp then normal skills.

and lvl xp for your attributes.



secondly, you should make talent points not based on your lvl(i think it sucks, especialy if you like mage or warior. rogues arent always more talented)

you should make it so you can achieve it by doing certain quests and undergo certain training. a bit like oblivion.

[Wittand25]

XP for sneaking by guards sounds good, but unless you go the route of the mission complete screen and don't allow players to go back or don't award combat XP at all, you get the problem that (like in Icewind dale 2 ) Players first sneak by the monsters and once they have received the XP for sneaking go back and no kill all the NPCs do also get the combat XP.

[Lord_Saulot]

No thanks. Exp is one of the things that make combat fun in a computer RPG; I'd prefer they kept that the same.

[nikki191]

now this is an old debate, each to their own i guess, but yeah handing in ashes makes you a better fighter or thief.. never really got how that work.

but regardless its a system that people are used to and is well implemented even if it doesnt really make logical sense but i agree there should be non combat ways for xp, etc

Modifié par nikki191, 21 juillet 2010 - 02:17 .

[Ravenwoud]

Lord_Saulot wrote...

No thanks. Exp is one of the things that make combat fun in a computer RPG; I'd prefer they kept that the same.

i said that as well, but  it should only give lvl xp . that way we will use even more strategies to get a lot of skill xp for better skills.
lvling is otherwise way to easy and so is getting skills

[Tirigon]

Slidell505 wrote...

Get. The. **** out.

what an intelligent, well thought-out post. Your contribution is noted as worthy.

[Vaendi]

I disagree. although I would prefer that they remove the -notice- hovering above our heads when we kill someone, removing the actual EXP mechanic itself would take away from the "fun" factor in an RPG.



frankly, there is already bonus EXP awarded for "discovering stuff" - disarming traps, finding codex entries, and so on.

[Ravenwoud]

Tirigon wrote...

Slidell505 wrote...

Get. The. **** out.

what an intelligent, well thought-out post. Your contribution is noted as worthy.

totaly true

[Chuvvy]

Tirigon wrote...

Slidell505 wrote...

Get. The. **** out.

what an intelligent, well thought-out post.

I thought so.

[Tirigon]

The best leveling is the way it´s handled in Oblivion.

[joriandrake]

Tirigon wrote...

The best leveling is the way it´s handled in Oblivion.

NO

[Radahldo]

jesus christ no

[nikki191]

Tirigon wrote...

The best leveling is the way it´s handled in Oblivion.

i liked it but its open to abuse more than an xp system is.. casting a spell over and over to raise your skill .. yeah it should happen that way but people will abuse it

[iTomes]

Tirigon wrote...

The best leveling is the way it´s handled in Oblivion.

well....yeah. but i think its hard to implement that into an party rpg. same for the removing of xp for kill: you get your xp when you fullfilled a quest. problem is: the guys who did all the work can simply be removed from the party and instead you can put in a member that is currently too low-leveled. and -dang- many xp for standing arround in camp and looking pretty...thats realistic.

[Chuvvy]

Tirigon wrote...

The best leveling is the way it´s handled in Oblivion.

Oblivions leveling system is broken, it's so open to exploit. It's great on paper, just not in practice. Like communisim.

[filetemo]

nikki191 wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

The best leveling is the way it´s handled in Oblivion.

i liked it but its open to abuse more than an xp system is.. casting a spell over and over to raise your skill .. yeah it should happen that way but people will abuse it

oblivion:

run
get stuck against a wall while running
leave the computer and go buy groceries
maximized running skill
profit

[Tirigon]

filetemo wrote...

nikki191 wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

The best leveling is the way it´s handled in Oblivion.

i liked it but its open to abuse more than an xp system is.. casting a spell over and over to raise your skill .. yeah it should happen that way but people will abuse it

oblivion:

run
get stuck against a wall while running
leave the computer and go buy groceries
maximized running skill
profit

So what? If you run for 3 hours, your skill in running DOES improve, even in real life.


And most skills are learned by repetition. Casting a spell over and over is what the mages in the circle do to learn their skills, after all.........

[Chuvvy]

filetemo wrote...

nikki191 wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

The best leveling is the way it´s handled in Oblivion.

i liked it but its open to abuse more than an xp system is.. casting a spell over and over to raise your skill .. yeah it should happen that way but people will abuse it

oblivion:

run
get stuck against a wall while running
leave the computer and go buy groceries
maximized running skill
profit

I just do it right before I go to sleep.

[Tantum Dic Verbo]

Luke Bioware wrote...

Yeah. It's way more realistic if you get a trillion points for handing in some ashes than if you get them kill for kill.

Wait--realistic?  You're talking about a fantasy game in a fictitious setting with magic and elves and dragons.  It uses a hit point system, which means that characters can take hammer blows and sword thrusts (dozens of them) without any degradation in combat performance.  In the case of Dragon Age (which mirrors more modern trends in RPG design in this regard) resources are replenished after a fight, meaning that the axe stroke your mage (you know, the one wearing the dress and the placemat on his head) just took in the face will take care of itself with about 45 seconds of rest.

Ah, but you're addressing the real-life problem of experience points for killing things.  It's well established that bomber pilots have returned from missions with enormous increases in personal power.  In fact, it was common for experienced bomber crews to have more hit points than the bombers in which they flew.  They would sometimes drape themselves over essential parts of the aircraft, since they could handle machine-gun damage better than the airplane itself.  The crew of the Enola Gay actually ascended into godhood because of the incredible xp totals they racked up on a single mission.

And, of course, the xp derived from killing people in real life makes people better at all of their skills.  Want to be better at theoretical physics?  Take the skill and get to mass-murdering.  Those xp with secure that top university research post in no time at all.

To clarify, game design is game design.  D&D derivatives, like Dragon Age, don't exist to simulate reality; they exist to simulate a certain kind of play experience.  If you want to debate whether xp should exist in the entrails of monsters or in the goodwill of quest givers, have at it.  Just understand that the debate is about achieving a certain game experience.

[C9316]

[EnderZak]

Is the issue with killing..."legalized and glorified mass-murderer approach"...or truly about leveling and an RPG experience? The darkspawn were meant to be killed in their entirety. It's not like there were good ones and bad ones.



I do agree with multiple options to solve an issue. Having said that, no system is going to be perfect. It makes sense to me that the more fireballs you throw, the better you become at it. But a system like that creates level 50 characters who spent 10 straight hours throwing fireballs at a tree stump (I'm looking at you Oblivion). Or sneaking past someone sleeping, etc.



There are attributes I like and dislike with all the RPG's out there. And no matter what system is used, some people will prefer this one over that one. At this point in my gaming life, I'm just happy developers are making RPG's in general. (good ones)