702 réponses à ce sujet

[Dick Delaware]

joriandrake wrote...
this is especially true for mystery/detective books


oh, how I would love to have a proper detective RPG, or an RPG focusing on that a lot

I'd love to see an RPG based on something like The Wire. Now that would be bad-ass.

[joriandrake]

iTomes wrote...

"this is especially true for mystery/detective books"

indeed, but were talking about fantasy here ^^

those are not mutualy exclusive

[joriandrake]

Dick Delaware wrote...

joriandrake wrote...
this is especially true for mystery/detective books


oh, how I would love to have a proper detective RPG, or an RPG focusing on that a lot

I'd love to see an RPG based on something like The Wire. Now that would be bad-ass.

or on some victorian/pre-WW2 era England with all the rain, multiple known real and media characters (Poirot, Sherlock, Jack the Ripper) and of course fog!

We would be able to create our own character and mess up London as our very own unique detective in this setting

[winter troll]

it would take out the fun of killing though , although vampire bloodlines made use of system which rewarded you for completing quests . So instead of fighting your way though , you could just sneak around steal what you were send for and then escape

[iTomes]

joriandrake wrote...

Dick Delaware wrote...

joriandrake wrote...
this is especially true for mystery/detective books


oh, how I would love to have a proper detective RPG, or an RPG focusing on that a lot

I'd love to see an RPG based on something like The Wire. Now that would be bad-ass.

or on some victorian/pre-WW2 era England with all the rain, multiple known real and media characters (Poirot, Sherlock, Jack the Ripper) and of course fog!

We would be able to create our own character and mess up London as our very own unique detective in this setting

only acceptable if im allowed to be the villain.... i wanna show these detectives what true power is mwahahaMWAHAHAHAAAAAA.... sorry.... uuummm i got lost in thought^^

[Dick Delaware]

winter troll wrote...

it would take out the fun of killing though , although vampire bloodlines made use of system which rewarded you for completing quests . So instead of fighting your way though , you could just sneak around steal what you were send for and then escape

If combat is not fun because an XP bar doesn't filling you up and as a result giving your brain a nice dopamine surge that encourages you to fill more bars up, your combat is the problem, not the lack of XP being rewarded for killing rats. Why would it take out the fun? There are tons of shooters and strategy games that consist entirely of combat and they have no XP system. They've gotta be fun somehow, right?

[Kenrae]

I'd love for that to happen. I've never liked this system on any game and, the few NWN mods that implemented a different functionality ended up being very good. BEsides, I play PnP RPGs but no d&d, I prefer other, more narrative, systems.

[joriandrake]

iTomes wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

Dick Delaware wrote...

joriandrake wrote...
this is especially true for mystery/detective books


oh, how I would love to have a proper detective RPG, or an RPG focusing on that a lot

I'd love to see an RPG based on something like The Wire. Now that would be bad-ass.

or on some victorian/pre-WW2 era England with all the rain, multiple known real and media characters (Poirot, Sherlock, Jack the Ripper) and of course fog!

We would be able to create our own character and mess up London as our very own unique detective in this setting

only acceptable if im allowed to be the villain.... i wanna show these detectives what true power is mwahahaMWAHAHAHAAAAAA.... sorry.... uuummm i got lost in thought^^

that also sounds cool

[Dick Delaware]

godlike13 wrote...

Slidell505 wrote...

Get. The. **** out.

This

Cool. Care to elaborate?

[Special_Agent_Goodwrench]

joriandrake wrote...

Dick Delaware wrote...

joriandrake wrote...
this is especially true for mystery/detective books


oh, how I would love to have a proper detective RPG, or an RPG focusing on that a lot

I'd love to see an RPG based on something like The Wire. Now that would be bad-ass.

or on some victorian/pre-WW2 era England with all the rain, multiple known real and media characters (Poirot, Sherlock, Jack the Ripper) and of course fog!

We would be able to create our own character and mess up London as our very own unique detective in this setting

That would be mindblowing if done right. Throw in some Elizabeth Bathory (I know noth the right time period, but all that "using blood of the virgins to reain youth" has huge potential), Sping-Heel Jack along with Jerkyll & Hyde, and you have a win right there.

[Aratham Darksight]

Haexpane wrote...

Aratham Darksight wrote...
 
..... God of War doesn't have mission XP. It, in fact, awards "XP" for kills.

Oh, been a while.  I havent even touched GoW 3.  Actually now that I think about it, wasn't it "style points" like you got more Orbs for more stylish kills or chaining combos?

You also got somes stuff at the "mission complete" screens to didnt you?  I remember getting a new weapon after beating a boss for example.

Sorry, I'm a bit late with this, but... God of War also didn't have mission complete screens. It gave you new weapons and powers as part of plot events, which were sometimes boss fights, but more often not.

And for the record, Halo, Gears of War and Call of Duty didn't have mission complete screens either, even though a lot of people here seem absolutely convinced that they did for some reason. I really want to know where they're getting their information from, to be honest.

[TMZuk]

TMZuk wrote...

There's been a lot of interesting pros and cons here, reading through the replies.

However, it strikes me as odd that some people seem to think I want to get rid of combat altogether. What I would like to see is options.

Example: A group of darkspawn commanded by a Hurlock Emissary occupies a village.

---------------------------------------One: The fighter approach --------------------------------------

Attack and Kill all the Darkspawn. You may succeed, kill all the darkspawn, save the villagers, everyone happy. Or you may kill all the darkspawn, but not before they killed some of the villagers. Or you may die against overwhelming odds.

Absolute succes: 1000 xp.

Partial succes: 500 xp.

Failure... well... death.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------Two: The sneak approach --------------------------------------

Sneak in and kill the emmisary. You may succeed. Darkspawn confused without leadership and flee, everyone happy. You may succeed partially, the emmisary manages to kill some villagers before you get to him. Or you are spotted and have to flee.

Succes: 1000 xp

Partial succes: 500 xp
Failure! Whole village dies.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now you have two different approaches, that gives variable xp, and many different outcomes. Combat is ONE option, instead of the ONLY option. This is a super-simplified example, and if you replace darkspawn with robbers or Lohgain sympathizers, you have more options opening up, such as diplomacy.

Put in bonus xp for discovering a planned raid on the next village, an apostate hiding in the village, or some such thing.

This would make fast and efficient killing worthwhile, but it would leave open other options as well, instead of the system we have now, where the ONLY option is to get the meatgrinder running.

I'm going to repeat myself, as it seems several of the posters have only given th OP the most cursory of glances, and not read anything in the thread since then.

NOONE wants a DA2 where you do nothing else than picking flowers, and dancing though lush meadows.

BUT it would be pretty damned cool if there were OTHER options than hack, slash, hack, slash. Like assasination. Like diplomacy. Like deception. Like seduction. I could go on. That would make for what Bioware claims they wish to make: A mature RPG.

*DA:O spoiler alert.*
It is not about making the game more lighhearted. On the contrary, I find that the casual approach to killing, (oh, there was a village called Heaven, we just viped it out, men, women and children, and so what?) trivilalizes the dark setting. Killing is of no consequence, apparantly, so what's dark about it? It's just about seeing the bar fill up.
*End spoiler*

And then the tired argument that wholesale slaughter is a tried and working rpg-mechanism. Only in games that have not progressed. What has hack'n slash to do with ROLEPLAY? Diablo is a hack'n slash game, but DA claims to be a Role Playing Game. So I'd like to see Role Play OPTIONS.

[Orchomene]

Overall, even if this is a side discussion, I think that having a bit less focus on combat (like having less than 50% of the game being combat) may bring some more interest into... well, into combat.

Combat in DAO becomes a bit boring when you have to kill a hundred of enemies. Having a balanced game that only put combat for some situations gives more emphasis to the battles you fight since the battles are rarer.

Sticking to Redcliff example, the preparation was fun but after that, there are those waves of enemies coming at following places (on the hill and at the harbor) that are just boring and don't really give the "dark" feeling. How can it be dark when you are slaughtering dozens of enemies after dozens ? It's as dark as playing Diablo.

On the other hand, you could have had some enemies at the front gate on the hill used by the demons as a diversion, then when you go back to the church, you just spot that half of the defenders have been killed and are raising from death by a demon. You would have a cinematic of a NPC you've talked to becoming an undead. You then dispatch the five or ten undeads and kill the demon. That brings a bit more of darkness.

Talking about Bioware lacks of freedom in games, it's sadly true. It's more or less always been the case and it's sade to see that it's what is acclaimed by customers and reviews more than developers that brings choices with a smaller budget (like Troika, Obsidian, ...). There are good things in the game Bioware develops, but they may strenghen their weakness.

[Tirigon]

Dick Delaware wrote...

Playing as a diplomat is not necessarily the same thing as being peaceful. You could trick, manipulate and lie your way through situations to benefit yourself too. 

There are some examples where forced combat encounters make sense, sure. Fighting the spirit army in Mask of the Betrayer at the end of Act I is a great example of this. But they are a drop in the ocean compared to forced boss fights. I find it really annoying when I meet some boss, he gives me the standard villain's exposition detailing what he wants to do, and we're having a civilized chat. Then I get three dialogue options that look like this, in order of how nice you are:

Option #1: I'm sorry, I can't let you live.
Option #2: Let's end this!
Option #3: I'm going to enjoy gutting you!

Dude, if you're going to railroad me, just have him fight me right away!

Quoted for truth.

[Tirigon]

winter troll wrote...

it would take out the fun of killing though , although vampire bloodlines made use of system which rewarded you for completing quests . So instead of fighting your way though , you could just sneak around steal what you were send for and then escape

I don´t get this argument.

If I play a violent character, or am angry in Real Life, I enjoy the killing just for the sake of seeing things die.

If I play a peaceful character who wants to avoid senseless death killing doesn´t become funnier because of a littel 33 XP! floating over the body.........

[joriandrake]

Tirigon wrote...

winter troll wrote...

it would take out the fun of killing though , although vampire bloodlines made use of system which rewarded you for completing quests . So instead of fighting your way though , you could just sneak around steal what you were send for and then escape

I don´t get this argument.

If I play a violent character, or am angry in Real Life, I enjoy the killing just for the sake of seeing things die.

If I play a peaceful character who wants to avoid senseless death killing doesn´t become funnier because of a littel 33 XP! floating over the body.........

really?  
:3

:3

xP

[Indoctrination]

Adopting the ME2 EXP system would be a very, very bad idea. (Mostly because it was a bad idea for ME2!)



I understand the argument that to get the most EXP out of the game you have to always choose to fight and ignore other ways of resolving conflicts and problems. The way to solve this is to give equal EXP for these alternate paths rather than stripping the soul out of the leveling up system. For example, let's say you have to break into a castle to rescue a princess. There are guards outside that are worth 500 EXP together. There's a secret tunnel in the back which you can use to avoid fighting the guards. If you use the secret tunnel, you should get 500 EXP, as much as you would have gotten for fighting your way in.



That's the most sensible solution which would probably make most people happy.

[Kenrae]

Indoctrination wrote...

Adopting the ME2 EXP system would be a very, very bad idea. (Mostly because it was a bad idea for ME2!)

I understand the argument that to get the most EXP out of the game you have to always choose to fight and ignore other ways of resolving conflicts and problems. The way to solve this is to give equal EXP for these alternate paths rather than stripping the soul out of the leveling up system. For example, let's say you have to break into a castle to rescue a princess. There are guards outside that are worth 500 EXP together. There's a secret tunnel in the back which you can use to avoid fighting the guards. If you use the secret tunnel, you should get 500 EXP, as much as you would have gotten for fighting your way in.

That's the most sensible solution which would probably make most people happy.

Why not just simply give 500 EXP for getting in, however you do it? Just when you get in, you get 500 EXP. We don't need a mission screen to do that (think Deus Ex).

[KethWolfheart]

Indoctrination wrote...

Adopting the ME2 EXP system would be a very, very bad idea. (Mostly because it was a bad idea for ME2!)

I understand the argument that to get the most EXP out of the game you have to always choose to fight and ignore other ways of resolving conflicts and problems. The way to solve this is to give equal EXP for these alternate paths rather than stripping the soul out of the leveling up system. For example, let's say you have to break into a castle to rescue a princess. There are guards outside that are worth 500 EXP together. There's a secret tunnel in the back which you can use to avoid fighting the guards. If you use the secret tunnel, you should get 500 EXP, as much as you would have gotten for fighting your way in.

That's the most sensible solution which would probably make most people happy.

They said this better than I did.  This is what I would prefer.  I would love many choices besides combat, but don't strip things out in the process - just add in more options.   Obviously there needs to be some balance so you don't get experience for both (or all) approaches but I have seen that doen before (closing out an area, changing flags to non-hostile, or just removing the XP after you solve something.  In other words if you sneak in and solve the problem that way it triggers a flag that sets Xp to 0 if you kill the mobs related to that quest line.

One issue, as pointed out, has to do with pacing.  If it takes 30 mins to fight through a dungone versus 5 mins to sneak and solve with diplomacy, then this can be a problem depending on how often it is used.  I suppose some of this is solved with puzzles, traps, mazes, etc.   I think there should be a good mix and there are ways of pacing the game besides combat.

EDIT: As for always giving the same experience.  I am against that.  I think it is good to provide different rewards.  Perhaps by fighting your way in you get 400 XP but extra loot.  By sneaking in you get 500XP but no loot and perhaps some skill bonus for rogue.

I know developers have to plan the game out based on levels,  but I LOVE to see flexibility.  For example when I played DAO I went through 3 times.  Each character ended up at a different level in the game - but the difference was only 2 at the most.  Some skipped certain content, some explored more, some killed more, etc.

The point is I hate when everything is always the same - regardless if between replays or even between different players.  There should be a little randomness, a little bit of difference, in results depending on approach.

Look - I know a lot of it is illusionary, most games are, but it is am important one to some folks.  I like to think my play throughs might be a little bit different than others based on how well I explored, my choices, etc.  Part of the fun is the illusion of uniqueness.  But this is a whole other thread ...

Modifié par KethWolfheart, 22 juillet 2010 - 11:58 .

[ElectricWizard]

because then, the problem becomes that people will STOP fighting and start taking the "secret route" everytime it is presented to them because "they get bored of fighting everything" (I can see it now)



in effect turning DA2 into a roleplayed espionage game.



Dragon Cell: Hawkeviction

[MaxQuartiroli]

Kenrae wrote...

I'd love for that to happen. I've never liked this system on any game and, the few NWN mods that implemented a different functionality ended up being very good.

Indeed... And I had to kill anyway allmost the enemies in the game, because the areas you had to explore where those ones.. and the enemies were there.. therefore you can't avoid them.

Therefore if people fear this system could remove combats from the game is wrong before the gameplay don't change...The only difference was that I didn't lose xp if I forgot to kill that lonely goblin in the remote corner of the map

[Tirigon]

joriandrake wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

winter troll wrote...

it would take out the fun of killing though , although vampire bloodlines made use of system which rewarded you for completing quests . So instead of fighting your way though , you could just sneak around steal what you were send for and then escape

I don´t get this argument.

If I play a violent character, or am angry in Real Life, I enjoy the killing just for the sake of seeing things die.

If I play a peaceful character who wants to avoid senseless death killing doesn´t become funnier because of a littel 33 XP! floating over the body.........

really?  
:3

:3

xP

Lolwut?

[Tirigon]

ElectricWizard wrote...

because then, the problem becomes that people will STOP fighting and start taking the "secret route" everytime it is presented to them because "they get bored of fighting everything" (I can see it now)

in effect turning DA2 into a roleplayed espionage game.

If people enjoy playing like that more, why should they not be able to do so?

[KethWolfheart]

ElectricWizard wrote...

because then, the problem becomes that people will STOP fighting and start taking the "secret route" everytime it is presented to them because "they get bored of fighting everything" (I can see it now)

in effect turning DA2 into a roleplayed espionage game.

Dragon Cell: Hawkeviction

But then the developers have to ask themselves .. if everyone stops fighting because it is boring .. doesn't that indicate that maybe the combat needs to be less boring or perhaps people don't like combat as much as developers think they do?

The problem is not hacving the secret route and people avoiding the combat - the issue is providing a bunch of different paths that will appeal to different people and role playing.  Some people love combat and want that approach, others may want to chat, others may want a puzzle, etc.

As I said before I also think the rewards should be different, not the same.  So the combat approach yeilds less XP but adds in loot.  The sneak yeilds more XP but less loot.  Just examples of course.  But I am sure there are many ways one could give various rewards for different approaches.

[Costin_Razvan]

ElectricWizard wrote...

because then, the problem becomes that people will STOP fighting and start taking the "secret route" everytime it is presented to them because "they get bored of fighting everything" (I can see it now)

in effect turning DA2 into a roleplayed espionage game.

Dragon Cell: Hawkeviction

That's a pile of bull****. Some people prefer straight up fighting, some people prefer other methods.

Giving a player viable options is the key to any game.