702 réponses à ce sujet

[Haexpane]

Aratham Darksight wrote...

Haexpane wrote...

If there was no XP for killing, it would be boring.

We already have 10,000 games that are not RPGs and don't give XP for killing, do we really need another NON RPG?

So, if a game that doesn't award XP for killing is not an RPG, would you argue that all the White Wolf pen&paper RPGs are in fact NON-RPGs? What would you call them instead, then?

I am only talking about Video Game RPGs.

[Haexpane]

triggerhappy456 wrote...

oblivions way of levelling was very good, but couldnt work in dragon age origins
and the idea of this is that talking to people should grant as much experience as killing people?
experience which is then used to make your character a better and stronger fighter?

Yep, that's what the "Story matters, everything else is trash" crowd wants.   They'd be happy with removing combat altogether and turning DA2 into the Sims4 with swords :innocent:

[Aratham Darksight]

Haexpane wrote...

Aratham Darksight wrote...

So, if a game that doesn't award XP for killing is not an RPG, would you argue that all the White Wolf pen&paper RPGs are in fact NON-RPGs? What would you call them instead, then?

I am only talking about Video Game RPGs.

Why the distinction? If a Storytelling System game is an RPG in pen&paper form, why does it suddely lose its RPG-ness when the rules faithfully adapted into Video Game form?

[Sylvius the Mad]

Aratham Darksight wrote...

Why the distinction?

I was about to ask the same question.

The point of a CRPG is to reproduce the experience of a tabletop RPG without the need for other people.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 23 juillet 2010 - 09:09 .

[AlanC9]

Haexpane wrote...
Yep, that's what the "Story matters, everything else is trash" crowd wants.   They'd be happy with removing combat altogether and turning DA2 into the Sims4 with swords :innocent:

Wait a minute... what good would the swords be without the combat?

No, I'm not being serious. Just saying that the joke needs work.

[Aratham Darksight]

slimgrin wrote...

There is nothing wrong with awarding xp for alternative solutions to problems in a game (diplomacy vs combat vs stealth) but surely people must realize this is not a feasible approach for every single encounter. Some situations yes, where maybe you stealth your way through a dungeon instead of hacking through with a sword. But in every scenario? I just don't think any dev would make a game that expansive and flexible - time and resources couldn't allow it.

Yes, we do realize that. I don't recall anyone in this thread demanding that all encounters must have a non-combat resolution. Maybe I'm forgetting someone. The OP's point was that tying XP gain more to general progress and less to individual kills would make these optional non-combat approaches more viable and thereby maybe encourage more of them to be implemented.

There are more options than the two extremes and even if quest completion really were the sole source of XP in a game, it would still not prevent it from being combat-heavy and having mandatory combat situations.

Lastly, if people are so offended to know how much xp is earned per kill as it happens (or think themselves above it, which is laughable...xp elitists, who could have saw that one coming?) when if ever do they want to know this information?

You're missing the point here. Nobody is offended by the way XP is displayed, or even the traditional system of XP gain in general. What I do find pretty sad is people claiming that the only part of a game they enjoy is getting the XP, without which the whole thing would be boring and unmotivating for them. Doesn't that sound like there's something gone horribly wrong there? I can offer choice quotes from this very thread.

I just see leveling up with xp as part of developing my character.

As do most of the people you're arguing with. I don't know what gave you the impression otherwise.

Bloodlines really is worth playing, although you'll probably want the fanmade patches because the game was realeased in a terribly buggy state and never really fixed.

[Haexpane]

Aratham Darksight wrote...

Haexpane wrote...

Aratham Darksight wrote...

So, if a game that doesn't award XP for killing is not an RPG, would you argue that all the White Wolf pen&paper RPGs are in fact NON-RPGs? What would you call them instead, then?

I am only talking about Video Game RPGs.

Why the distinction? If a Storytelling System game is an RPG in pen&paper form, why does it suddely lose its RPG-ness when the rules faithfully adapted into Video Game form?

Because I haven't ever played a full campaing in a PnP RPG.  I have only casually played them, and I haven't been in a session in 15+ years.

Meanwhile I play almost every good wRPG I can get my hands on  (BG2 through The Witcher though Fallout 3, DAO)  and as many JRPGs that fit my tastes (Vagrant Story, FFtactics, Demon's SOuls etc..)

So it's not that "story driven" loses RPGness or anything of the sort.

It's that "story driven" gaming already exists, they call them adventure games like Dreamfall or Inidgo Prophecy.  Those games have no RPG elements (usually)

DAO already rewards you for quests, and I have no argument against rewarding for quest complete, however it is completed.

My only argument is AGAINST removing quest for kills in DA as DA is the "spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate 2" I'd like to hope Bioware will stay as true that that as possible.

Mass Effect is already heading in the direction of removing XP for kills so the whole "story action game" is already thriving on that Series, I'd hope they keep DA out of it.

[Haexpane]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The point of a CRPG is to reproduce the experience of a tabletop RPG without the need for other people.

Says who?  There are many of us who played videogames before tabletop RPGs.  Dungeons and Dragons on Intellivision or Adventure on Atari for example

Just because someone is old and a RPG fan doesn't mean we started w/ PnP

[Haexpane]

AlanC9 wrote...

Haexpane wrote...
Yep, that's what the "Story matters, everything else is trash" crowd wants.   They'd be happy with removing combat altogether and turning DA2 into the Sims4 with swords :innocent:

Wait a minute... what good would the swords be without the combat?

No, I'm not being serious. Just saying that the joke needs work.

It wasn't a joke!  OnlyStoryMatters people would have the swords to show off to their lovemaking NPC of choice.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I'm not saying you did. I'm saying that an RPG has certain qualities regardless of platform.

[Haexpane]

slimgrin wrote...

 

It doesn't matter to me when I get the info, before mission, during, after it in a gaudy mission accomplished screen...never mind, I don't want that. But as long as I know, thats all I care about. I just see leveling up with xp as part of developing my character.

Thank you!  God that "mission accomplished" screen actually makes me think Molyneux may actually have the right idea w/ his 3D tranny closet clothing change instead of a menu system

[Haexpane]

Aratham Darksight wrote...
 What I do find pretty sad is people claiming that the only part of a game they enjoy is getting the XP, without which the whole thing would be boring and unmotivating for them.

Doesn't that sound like there's something gone horribly wrong there? I can offer choice quotes from this very thread.

I just see leveling up with xp as part of developing my character.

As do most of the people you're arguing with. I don't know what gave you the impression otherwise.

Bloodlines really is worth playing, although you'll probably want the fanmade patches because the game was realeased in a terribly buggy state and never really fixed.

It's not getting the XP that's enjoyable, so much as the "constantly getting XP"  the carrot on the stick gameplay works, and works well.  I am killing the monster for the story yes, but really this is a game, and I want my character to grow, and I want that next ability or stat point so I can equip that nice piece of gear or try out the new ability.

This however is one of the major complaints about DAO in that getting new abilities isn't really all that different.    For instance, shield bash, or shield BASH or shield BASH BASH BASH BASH  never really feels all that satisfying.  Of course we didnt know how much of a let down it would be until we unlocked it.

I'm also a big anti fan of the AND THE FINAL ABILITY IS!  TO waste all your stamina in one swing!  Hooray?

But thats a whole different story.

[Sidney]

Orchomene wrote...
You can :
- kill the bandit and save the hostage 200 XP for the bandit, 500 for the hostage saved.
- kill the bandit but hostage is killed during the fight 200 XP for the bandit
- talk to the bandit to let the hostage go 500 XP for the hostage saved and bandit flees.

Yeah but this is exactly the problem.  Your goal is to save the hostage. Killing the hostage is a mission critical failure but you want to reward them killing the bandit.  If a SWAT team storms the bank, kills all 3 burglars but also all 5 hostagaes that isn't a win for the SWAT team.

In fact in your scenario why is killing bandit + saving hostage worth 700 XP while "merely" saving the hostage is worth only 500?  Was killing the bandit part of the mission?

Especially in Bioware games where any killing you do is in service of some job/quest/mission the people that sent you on that mission care about success or failure not process. In an MMO grinding away for XP might make sense but not in an objective oriented game.

Think about this in terms of real-world objectives:
You are tasked to seize a hill in the army. Do you get "partial" credit for killing a lot of bad guys or is the only thing that matters taking the hill?
Your boss wants a presentation done. Does he care how you finish said presentation, no. Is he happy if you spend a lot of time, and gain a lot of experience making copies or does he want the flippin' thing done?
In sports, do you get credit for anything other than the final score?

[gamekid9002]

Slidell505 wrote...

Get. The. **** out.

My thoughts exactly.

[Tirigon]

Haexpane wrote...

If there was no XP for killing, it would be boring.

We already have 10,000 games that are not RPGs and don't give XP for killing, do we really need another NON RPG?

Maybe you should stop playing the game if it´s so boring you need xp to enjoy it.

[Tirigon]

Haexpane wrote...


Yep, that's what the "Story matters, everything else is trash" crowd wants.   They'd be happy with removing combat altogether and turning DA2 into the Sims4 with swords :innocent:

I´d prefer that over turning it into Borderlands with swords, which is what Haexpane and his 7 her fellows want.

[nuclearpengu1nn]

i prefer that all party members including the pc gets the same xp whenever one of party or pc kills an enemy mob

[BomimoDK]

Experience is something earned when going hands on with it. Killing is hands on. so is talking. OP needs to play Fallout, Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale and then come back with this concept...

[BomimoDK]

GreyWarden36 wrote...

i prefer that all party members including the pc gets the same xp whenever one of party or pc kills an enemy mob

well, Infinity engine used to split up XP between members so that no matter how big or small the party was, the balance (overall strength of the party) was kept level. was a cool aproach and if DA:O had a ruleset included or more feedback we'd know if it runs with this or not.

[BomimoDK]

Tirigon wrote...

Haexpane wrote...

If there was no XP for killing, it would be boring.

We already have 10,000 games that are not RPGs and don't give XP for killing, do we really need another NON RPG?

Maybe you should stop playing the game if it´s so boring you need xp to enjoy it.

a game without a steady stream of XP would get boring because progression and sense of evolution would just not be there. Not saying that other genres are boring... but Da:O without XP... imagine the bore. no Dragon killing...

Modifié par BomimoDK, 24 juillet 2010 - 01:21 .

[tmp7704]

Sidney wrote...

In fact in your scenario why is killing bandit + saving hostage worth 700 XP while "merely" saving the hostage is worth only 500?  Was killing the bandit part of the mission?

You can always consider it a bonus objective -- that guy ain't going to take any new hostages ever again.

On the other hand nothing prevents the developer from rewarding the alternative. Say, a reward for capturing the criminal alive because he can be valuable source of information this way.