702 réponses à ce sujet

[Tirigon]

Haexpane wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...


An actual argument as to why kill XP is needed would be kind of nice here. I assume you've got a reason, but since I'm not telepathic I don't know what it is.

This is flawed logic. Your asking someone to disprove something that has not been proven in the first place.  It's like asking him to prove why Santa Claus doesnt exist.  He doesn't need to  prove it, since no one has established it even exists.

In the case of DAO, XP per kill has *already been established* as something that works.

Now the argument is, lets change something that works, into something we don't know if it will work in DA, and then challenge people who defend the original proven system into proving why it worked?

Thats like people who say we can fix the economy by giving huge tax cuts to corporations.  We already tried that in the 1980s and all the jobs went to 3rd world countries.

And this, Haexpane, is where you´re wrong.

Considering that the combat in DAO is not as interesting as in a good hack´n´slash or shooter, but still enjoyable due to the tactical approach, shows that the combat XP does NOTHING to improve the fun.
If I notice the numbers at all I´m more annoyed by the low amount of exp I get than that I feel rewarded.....

[captain.subtle]

Tirigon wrote...

Haexpane wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...


An actual argument as to why kill XP is needed would be kind of nice here. I assume you've got a reason, but since I'm not telepathic I don't know what it is.

This is flawed logic. Your asking someone to disprove something that has not been proven in the first place.  It's like asking him to prove why Santa Claus doesnt exist.  He doesn't need to  prove it, since no one has established it even exists.

In the case of DAO, XP per kill has *already been established* as something that works.

Now the argument is, lets change something that works, into something we don't know if it will work in DA, and then challenge people who defend the original proven system into proving why it worked?

Thats like people who say we can fix the economy by giving huge tax cuts to corporations.  We already tried that in the 1980s and all the jobs went to 3rd world countries.

And this, Haexpane, is where you´re wrong.

Considering that the combat in DAO is not as interesting as in a good hack´n´slash or shooter, but still enjoyable due to the tactical approach, shows that the combat XP does NOTHING to improve the fun.
If I notice the numbers at all I´m more annoyed by the low amount of exp I get than that I feel rewarded.....

Vampire : Bloodlines?

[Tirigon]

Haexpane wrote...

The problem is always, people will analyze a system, and developers would rather you ignore the system, and just play the game.  But we cant, humans want to learn and understand.

If that is the case, maybe leveling should be removed entirely so that people can finally enjoy the game.

[Tirigon]

captain.subtle wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

And this, Haexpane, is where you´re wrong.

Considering that the combat in DAO is not as interesting as in a good hack´n´slash or shooter, but still enjoyable due to the tactical approach, shows that the combat XP does NOTHING to improve the fun.
If I notice the numbers at all I´m more annoyed by the low amount of exp I get than that I feel rewarded.....

Vampire : Bloodlines?

What has that to do with my post?

[Sylvius the Mad]

AlanC9 wrote...

Sylvius... you're defending a leveling system that you yourself accidentally broke?

It just needs some minor tweaks.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 03 août 2010 - 10:08 .

[captain.subtle]

Tirigon wrote...

Haexpane wrote...

The problem is always, people will analyze a system, and developers would rather you ignore the system, and just play the game.  But we cant, humans want to learn and understand.

If that is the case, maybe leveling should be removed entirely so that people can finally enjoy the game.

An extremophile (from Latin extremus meaning "extreme" and Greek philiā (φιλία) meaning "love") is an organism that thrives in and may even require physically, psychologically or geochemically extreme conditions that are detrimental to the majority of life on Earth.

[captain.subtle]

Tirigon wrote...

captain.subtle wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

And this, Haexpane, is where you´re wrong.

Considering that the combat in DAO is not as interesting as in a good hack´n´slash or shooter, but still enjoyable due to the tactical approach, shows that the combat XP does NOTHING to improve the fun.
If I notice the numbers at all I´m more annoyed by the low amount of exp I get than that I feel rewarded.....

Vampire : Bloodlines?

What has that to do with my post?

Sorry thought it would be obvious.. But I was wrong...

Have you played it? Its a nice game with NO XP for normal kills (of course for bosses there is XP) so you can play according to your style: Rambo or Ninja Hattori.

[Haexpane]

Tirigon wrote...

Haexpane wrote...
 

In the case of DAO, XP per kill has *already been established* as something that works.

 

And this, Haexpane, is where you´re wrong.

Considering that the combat in DAO is not as interesting as in a good hack´n´slash or shooter,  

but still enjoyable due to the tactical approach, shows that the combat XP does NOTHING to improve the fun.
If I notice the numbers at all I´m more annoyed by the low amount of exp I get than that I feel rewarded.....

Play Mass Effect 2 then come back and tell us DAO combat is not as good.  I dare you :happy:  The combat in DAO is 10x more interesting than ME2's "tactical" shooting.

I love hack and slash RPGs, (diablo) if that is what you mean by hack and slash.  If you mean Bayonetta, we can't talk

[markeyp]

ME2 and DA:O combat systems are both excellent but I have to say ME2 combat diden't live up to all this tactical stuff

[Haexpane]

markeyp wrote...

  ME2 combat diden't live up to all this tactical stuff

I would also argue that the Crouch Shooting design flattened out the games levels.  If you found a good cover spot, there is really no reason to move until everything is dead.

IDK how other people play ME2, but once I find good cover I shield/freeze/crack. No need to move unless you get really bored.

I guess this is also more realistic.  In the military, if you find cover, you stay there unless ordered to do otherwise.  Since Shepard is the commander, Peek and Pop

[Tirigon]

Haexpane wrote...


Play Mass Effect 2 then come back and tell us DAO combat is not as good.  I dare you :happy:  The combat in DAO is 10x more interesting than ME2's "tactical" shooting.

I agree. However, that´s not because of exp but because ME isn´t tactical at  all. imo, ME would be better if combat was completely shooter...

And of course, because DAO is better in EVERY other aspect.
Let me put it like that: In DAO, I enjoy the combat, but I also enjoy the camp talk, parts like the Landsmeet, the Gauntlet etc... I wouldn´t enjoy the combat without context.

In ME2 I enjoy ONLY the combat. I actually made a save before some of the best fights so I can do them without all the boring ship talk and the many boring missions. Except for combat, ME2 sucks. DAO would be fine with much less combat, too.

I love hack and slash RPGs, (diablo) if that is what you mean by hack and slash.  If you mean Bayonetta, we can't talk

I know neither; I mostly refer to Dark Messiah of Might and Magic, cos that´s the best Hack´n´Slash I know.

[Tirigon]

Haexpane wrote...

markeyp wrote...

  ME2 combat diden't live up to all this tactical stuff

I would also argue that the Crouch Shooting design flattened out the games levels.  If you found a good cover spot, there is really no reason to move until everything is dead.

IDK how other people play ME2, but once I find good cover I shield/freeze/crack. No need to move unless you get really bored.

I guess this is also more realistic.  In the military, if you find cover, you stay there unless ordered to do otherwise.  Since Shepard is the commander, Peek and Pop

Play Vanguard, much more action then

[KLUME777]

XP per kill should definitely stay, BUT



i noticed that when you get the option to do something peacefully, you get no xp, for eg.



in the gnawed noble tavern in Denerim your asked by the sergeant to get rid of the rowdy Mercs. You can kill them all, or persuade/intimidate them to leave. I persuaded them to leave, but i noticed i got no xp, when i could have gotten like 250xp for killing them.

[KLUME777]

Tirigon wrote...

If I notice the numbers at all I´m more annoyed by the low amount of exp I get than that I feel rewarded.....

What are talking about, i always feel rewarded when i see the floating xp when i kiil an enemy

[captain.subtle]

Tirigon wrote...


I know neither; I mostly refer to Dark Messiah of Might and Magic, cos that´s the best Hack´n´Slash I know.

Are you sure you have played Dark Messiah?

Its not  exactly hack and slash!!  classic example of Hack and Slash is Diablo, which you haven't played bu here is a list to generalize:


This is Dark messiah:
http://en.wikipedia....Might_and_Magic

[Vaeliorin]

slimgrin wrote...
I really would like someone to elaborate why this is a 'new' idea for RPG's. Still waiting...

It really isn't.  It's been around in PnP forever.  There haven't been a ton of cRPGs that have gone with a system other than kill XP, though, which is sad.

I think DA2 is the perfect vehicle for them to introduce such a system to more gamers (if you're going to limit our dialogue choices, why not expand our quest solving choices?)

[Biotic Budah]

How about XP per quest completed?

[Tirigon]

captain.subtle wrote...

Tirigon wrote...


I know neither; I mostly refer to Dark Messiah of Might and Magic, cos that´s the best Hack´n´Slash I know.

Are you sure you have played Dark Messiah?

Its not  exactly hack and slash!!  classic example of Hack and Slash is Diablo, which you haven't played bu here is a list to generalize:


This is Dark messiah:
http://en.wikipedia....Might_and_Magic

Well, your skill in fighting determines your success, not dice rolls or stats. Therefore, It´s hack´n´slash imo.

[AlanC9]

I'm not sure that's how most people use the phrase "hack 'n slash." Action-RPG, maybe?

[mhanna211]

Hack 'n slash is an RPG that is combat heavy. It has nothing to do with dice rolls, stats, how well you hit the left mouse button to swing a weapon, etc. Diablo is a good example; tons of combat, little dialogue.



Anyway, on topic.... I think that some people would like to see combat xp eliminated, but that would greatly take away from any warrior. If you're a warrior, you'll get more xp for doing what you know, as opposed to trying to sneak past darkspawn. The game uses rogues, but you only get xp for unlocking and disarming traps.



Maybe warriors get more xp for actually fighting. Rogues get xp for using their skills, but less from killing than warriors would get (unless they get kills by backstabbing). Mages get xp from using their skills and spells; they would get the same xp warriors would get for killing with their spells, or less xp for each spell cast to benefit an ally or hinder a foe.



This way, everyone still gets some xp for killing, but it's dependant on how it was done. This forces players to "play" their class' abilities. Yes, you can still make a combat-oriented rogue, but you won't get as much xp from direct fighting as a warrior would (unless you are backstabbing, again); you also will lose xp from missing out on other rogue abilities that you could have used (traps, disarming, etc.).



Also, giving xp for successfully using the conversation challenges (Intimidate/Persuasion/Coercion). A rogue getting xp for being able to sneak past a small group of darkspawn to get in a flanking position or lay a trap. That is what some people would want...it makes sense and that is good roleplaying, IMO.

[Tirigon]

AlanC9 wrote...

I'm not sure that's how most people use the phrase "hack 'n slash." Action-RPG, maybe?

Well, Action-RPG is not what I want, because the RPG-part with leveling your skills was actually the one thing about Dark Messiah that annoyed me. It is a great game, but it would be even better without leveling.

[captain.subtle]

Tirigon wrote...

Well, Action-RPG is not what I want, because the RPG-part with leveling your skills was actually the one thing about Dark Messiah that annoyed me. It is a great game, but it would be even better without leveling.

I don't get you... Care to explain in full?

What do you mean by leveling?

[Tirigon]

captain.subtle wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Well, Action-RPG is not what I want, because the RPG-part with leveling your skills was actually the one thing about Dark Messiah that annoyed me. It is a great game, but it would be even better without leveling.

I don't get you... Care to explain in full?

What do you mean by leveling?

In Dark Messiah, you get skill points at certain points in the story. These can be used to buy a skill - improved damage, health, mana, new spells, new meelee combinations like jump + attack etc....

Imo, it would be better if you had a character with certain skills and this character doesn´t change at all during the game.

[captain.subtle]

Tirigon wrote...
In Dark Messiah, you get skill points at certain points in the story. These can be used to buy a skill - improved damage, health, mana, new spells, new meelee combinations like jump + attack etc....

Imo, it would be better if you had a character with certain skills and this character doesn´t change at all during the game.

I thoroughly agree... But that can be readiliy remedied, right? I mean use the current RPG system from NWN2 (I mean LIKE NWN2 NOT DnD directly) and mix it up with Dark Messiah.... You can fairly implement hit chance there also... It would then be:

Combat efficeincy = Chance + Skill, like in the Witcher! Which was nearly a WIN.