702 réponses à ce sujet

[Haexpane]

Tirigon wrote...

 
Imo, it would be better if you had a character with certain skills and this character doesn´t change at all during the game.

Character growth and development is core to the RPG genre.  It sounds like you prefer story driven action games.  There are already a million of them

[Tirigon]

Haexpane wrote...


Character growth and development is core to the RPG genre.  It sounds like you prefer story driven action games.  There are already a million of them

If this is true, I haven´t discovered them yet. Can you suggest me some (I´m really interested)?

All I know so far are Dark Messiah and Alien vs Predator.

[captain.subtle]

Tirigon wrote...

Haexpane wrote...


Character growth and development is core to the RPG genre.  It sounds like you prefer story driven action games.  There are already a million of them

If this is true, I haven´t discovered them yet. Can you suggest me some (I´m really interested)?

All I know so far are Dark Messiah and Alien vs Predator.

Resistance : Fall of Man... Up'n'at'em!

[Haexpane]

Tirigon wrote...

Haexpane wrote...


Character growth and development is core to the RPG genre.  It sounds like you prefer story driven action games.  There are already a million of them

If this is true, I haven´t discovered them yet. Can you suggest me some (I´m really interested)?

All I know so far are Dark Messiah and Alien vs Predator.

Uncharted
God of War
Red Dead Redemption
GTA4
Halo
Metroid
Lego Star Wars
Prince of Persia
Batman AA
Resident Evil
The Sabateur
Red Faction G
Assassin's Creed
Way of the Samurai 3
Dead Space

the list goes on and on.   The Action genre is one of the biggest in the USA, and story driven action games are huge right now

[Vandrayke]

Haexpane wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

 
Imo, it would be better if you had a character with certain skills and this character doesn´t change at all during the game.

Character growth and development is core to the RPG genre.  It sounds like you prefer story driven action games.  There are already a million of them

I agree completely that growth & development are core functions, and they should be significant enough so that it's fun to "build" different types of characters.

I also think, however, that the model we're used to is outdated.  I'm waiting for a game to get it right, but it's a delicate balance... I say dump XP per kill, dump significant HP increases, dump exponential strength and agility increases, even dump the whole leveling process.  But you'd have to replace it with some type of skill based system that lets you learn new customizable abilities as part of the story that are significant without being overpowered.  Which is tough to do, admittedly.  

[Sidney]

Vandrayke wrote...
I also think, however, that the model we're used to is outdated.  I'm waiting for a game to get it right, but it's a delicate balance... I say dump XP per kill, dump significant HP increases, dump exponential strength and agility increases, even dump the whole leveling process.  But you'd have to replace it with some type of skill based system that lets you learn new customizable abilities as part of the story that are significant without being overpowered.  Which is tough to do, admittedly.  

I think it is the "dump significant HP increases, dump exponential strength and agility increases" I agree with most. The insane progression in most RPG's drives me nuts.

You are a tough guy in order to make it in to the Warden's. So you're already a cut above the normal guy but by level 10 you put your level 1 self to shame.  The exponential power growth fuels the silly level scaling encounters with backwater bandits that are silly tough.

I'd much rather see your skills expand at, for example, the current rate but attributes and hit points could really get throttled back a ton.

[In Exile]

I liked the progression in the Witcher, though I think it can be scaled down re: stat growth even more. It was heavily skill based, though, and I liked how attribute points in things like intelligence were required for skills like herbalism.

[Haexpane]

Vandrayke wrote...
 

I also think, however, that the model we're used to is outdated.  I'm waiting for a game to get it right, but it's a delicate balance... I say dump XP per kill, dump significant HP increases, dump exponential strength and agility increases, even dump the whole leveling process.

 But you'd have to replace it with some type of skill based system that lets you learn new customizable abilities as part of the story that are significant without being overpowered.  Which is tough to do, admittedly.  

Games like Star Wars the Force Unleashed and God of War do this.

They don't have true XP per kill or stat increases.  Only skills.  TFU you get more skill points as you collect them, and then pick and choose which abilities to level up.

You don't go from level 1-20 and from STR 15 to STR 80 or anything like that.

It sounds decent on paper, but in practice, it's very boring and makes the combat much more "grindy" than if you got XP for it.

In the end, most people just max the best skills and ignore the other skills.  Leading to less diversity in the gameplay and lower replay value.

It also feels alot "less" like an RPG , even tho it's an action game, they tried to God of War ify /RPG lite it.

Mass Effect 2 is killing me w/ the "this gun immediately makes all other guns worthless" "RPG" system.  At times I feel like I'm playing Halo again or something.

Once you max a few Biotics, the balance is ruined in that game and combat becomes completely trivial

ME2 is a very good game, but IMO the streamlining hurt the fun and depth a lot.  Removing or "streamlining" those RPG features dumbed it down.

For instance, you go on a mission and you don't level up until the mission is 100% complete.  So lets say you are trying to level up a character you bring, you don't get the chance until the mission is done.  At that point, you are on the ship.  For me, I almost lose interest in leveling up that character.

Now that you have the chance to unlock a skill or something, you need to take on another 40 minute mission to use that skill.

I like the immediacy and anticiaption of the DAO/BG2 system.  If i need another 2STR to equip an item, I can plow ahead and grind XP to get it.  Once I get it, I can equip that item and go nuts.

Constant reward as you play.

ME2 is fragments the experience into a "Mission Complete" screen. that just summarizes everything.  Very "immersion breaking" IMO

[In Exile]

Haexpane wrote...

Uncharted
God of War
Red Dead Redemption
GTA4
Halo
Metroid
Lego Star Wars
Prince of Persia
Batman AA
Resident Evil
The Sabateur
Red Faction G
Assassin's Creed
Way of the Samurai 3
Dead Space

the list goes on and on.   The Action genre is one of the biggest in the USA, and story driven action games are huge right now

I have to disagree dramatically. Those  games largely have an absolute fixed protagonist, with scripted scenes, with no player input. To really capture the kind of interactive story players want, you really do need to look at a game like Mass Effect or the Witcher.

[AlanC9]

I think Haexpane was doing a list of story-driven action games there. ME and TW don't make the list because they are RPGs.

Modifié par AlanC9, 05 août 2010 - 07:21 .

[AlanC9]

Haexpane wrote...

In the end, most people just max the best skills and ignore the other skills.  Leading to less diversity in the gameplay and lower replay value.

You see something like this in PnP RPG systems with no levels. Players will simply throw all their points into their primary attack or defense modes if the game is based on combat. In other settings the player will throw more points into whatever his role is, unless he's already so good at that role that he doesn't feel a need to improve performance. class-based systems have some issues themselves, but they do make it easier to have well-rounded characters.

For instance, you go on a mission and you don't level up until the mission is 100% complete.  So lets say you are trying to level up a character you bring, you don't get the chance until the mission is done.  At that point, you are on the ship.  For me, I almost lose interest in leveling up that character.

Now that you have the chance to unlock a skill or something, you need to take on another 40 minute mission to use that skill.

I guess this doesn't bug me because I'm used to it in in PnP, where you typically don't get XP awarded until the end of the adventure. Like no kill XP, its a PnP feature that CRPG gamers aren't used to.

I like the immediacy and anticiaption of the DAO/BG2 system.  If i need another 2STR to equip an item, I can plow ahead and grind XP to get it.  Once I get it, I can equip that item and go nuts.

This just highlights the lameness of the stat requirement system, though.

[In Exile]

AlanC9 wrote...

I think Haexpane was doing a list of story-driven action games there. ME and TW don't make the list because they are RPGs.

I get that. I'm just trying to say that this is a category mistake. What I see as an interactive story-driven game is something like ME, and these other games listed dramatically fail to have these elements. So while they might have a well-written and coherent story, I would not say they might be the answer to the taste of a gamer that wants a particular kind of storytelling in DA.

[Sidney]

Haexpane wrote...

For instance, you go on a mission and you don't level up until the mission is 100% complete.  So lets say you are trying to level up a character you bring, you don't get the chance until the mission is done.  At that point, you are on the ship.  For me, I almost lose interest in leveling up that character.

Doesn't it feel sort of stupid that *blammo* Morrigan learns a new spells while standing in the middle of the deep roads? What? Here, in the middle of nowehere in the Breciallian Forest I have suddenly learned how to, let's see, yes, mix potions because I killed a Hurlock. You talk about immersion and yet none of that goofiness bothers you?

At least the mission complete stuff sort of gives you the feel that you've gone back to the base and maybe trained or learned a new skill. There's really never a good reason to level up mid-adventure in terms of immersion and, well, making any sense. It is all about that immediate gratification jones people have.

[In Exile]

Sidney wrote...

At least the mission complete stuff sort of gives you the feel that you've gone back to the base and maybe trained or learned a new skill. There's really never a good reason to level up mid-adventure in terms of immersion and, well, making any sense. It is all about that immediate gratification jones people have.

I thought the mediation idea in the Witcher worked well. You level up, but you have to actually spend some time in contemplation. I would have had a forced 24hr period, but the principle idea IMO is good.

[btthegeek]

I can't stand the mission-based xp. It feels like I have accomplished nothing. In ME2, it forces you to go to the level-up screen, otherwise I would completely forget to check and see if I had gained any xp. I don't want something as complicated as some of the JRPGs, but the mission xp in ME2 is just boring as hell.

[AlanC9]

I'm starting to think the "rat chow" argument will win the day.

[Sidney]

btthegeek wrote...

I can't stand the mission-based xp. It feels like I have accomplished nothing. In ME2, it forces you to go to the level-up screen, otherwise I would completely forget to check and see if I had gained any xp. I don't want something as complicated as some of the JRPGs, but the mission xp in ME2 is just boring as hell.

Huh? That's the only time you've accomplished something. Killing random animals in the Brecillian Forest is functionally doing nothing otherwise deer hunters should be leveling up all the time.

[In Exile]

Sidney wrote...

btthegeek wrote...

I can't stand the mission-based xp. It feels like I have accomplished nothing. In ME2, it forces you to go to the level-up screen, otherwise I would completely forget to check and see if I had gained any xp. I don't want something as complicated as some of the JRPGs, but the mission xp in ME2 is just boring as hell.

Huh? That's the only time you've accomplished something. Killing random animals in the Brecillian Forest is functionally doing nothing otherwise deer hunters should be leveling up all the time.

And have several PHDs at the rate you learn skills from killing things.

[Vaeliorin]

In Exile wrote...

Sidney wrote...

btthegeek wrote...
I can't stand the mission-based xp. It feels like I have accomplished nothing. In ME2, it forces you to go to the level-up screen, otherwise I would completely forget to check and see if I had gained any xp. I don't want something as complicated as some of the JRPGs, but the mission xp in ME2 is just boring as hell.

Huh? That's the only time you've accomplished something. Killing random animals in the Brecillian Forest is functionally doing nothing otherwise deer hunters should be leveling up all the time.

And have several PHDs at the rate you learn skills from killing things.

I suddenly wish the real world worked like this...

[AlanC9]

How many XPs for fishing? Those guys on Deadliest Catch must be leveling up constantly.

[In Exile]

Vaeliorin wrote...
I suddenly wish the real world worked like this...

It would make studying for the LSAT a lot easier. Instead of studying, I could instead just stab some rats for hours.

[Haexpane]

In Exile wrote...

 

I have to disagree dramatically. Those  games largely have an absolute fixed protagonist, with scripted scenes, with no player input. To really capture the kind of interactive story players want, you really do need to look at a game like Mass Effect or the Witcher.

I said story driven, not "interactive story"

[Haexpane]

Sidney wrote...

 

Doesn't it feel sort of stupid that *blammo* Morrigan learns a new spells while standing in the middle of the deep roads? What? Here, in the middle of nowehere in the Breciallian Forest I have suddenly learned how to, let's see, yes, mix potions because I killed a Hurlock. You talk about immersion and yet none of that goofiness bothers you?

At least the mission complete stuff sort of gives you the feel that you've gone back to the base and maybe trained or learned a new skill. There's really never a good reason to level up mid-adventure in terms of immersion and, well, making any sense. It is all about that immediate gratification jones people have.

Not at all.  Learning in the field IMO is more realistic.  Yes, going back to "base" and researching certainly has it's place.  I'm more in favor of a blend of the systems.

DAO sort of has this already. You "learn" in combat but you can also do some "gud darn buk learnin gosh dern it"

If we want to talk immersion, the "mission complete" screens in ME2 IMO are 100X more "immersion breaking" than XP numbers.

Also the fact that bosses and mini bosses drop NO LOOT, no armor, no weapons, no credits, nothing. Again I feel that is far more destructive to immersion.  I kill a boss and there is not even a corpse to examine.  It' just disappears, like barrels rolling off screen in Donkey Kong

[Haexpane]

Sidney wrote...
 

Huh? That's the only time you've accomplished something. Killing random animals in the Brecillian Forest is functionally doing nothing otherwise deer hunters should be leveling up all the time.

I'm glad you brought up Deer Hunting

1. Deer hunting is a great example of broken balance.  The hunters are extremely over powered, using high tech military grade weapons, tricks(cheats) like deer urine or food bait, and they exploit this advantage to a disgusting degree.

This is equivalent to using cheat mods in DAO and the broken level scaling.

Instead imagine not a super powered warden, but a warrior or mage starting at a true level 1 and growing.  Learning as they kill/steal/blast whatever against other formidable foes.

Instead of "rat chow" for "rats"  instead imagine worthy opponents who are not 1 hit kills.  Imagine a battle that lasts more then 1 minute.

Imagine a game when instead of 1 minute of battle against hordes of weak chumps,  and then 25 minutes of running around empty hallways (Deep Roads)  the battle actually lasting a while because the enemies are tough.

[Haexpane]

AlanC9 wrote...

How many XPs for fishing? Those guys on Deadliest Catch must be leveling up constantly.

They are cheating using mods.

Show me a guy holding his breath, with a wooden spear fishing and I will show you someone leveling up their skills.

Show me a redneck w/ an motorized fishing boat using high tech gear and we are looking at a cheater/exploiter.