702 réponses à ce sujet

[The Edge]

What would you substitute exp. with? It might be a little shallow, but exp. is a rewarding aspect to combat that would be rather difficult to replace. There'll still be "kill,kill,kill" and taking the rewarding and exp. gaining aspects of combat would make combat a waste of time.

[AlanC9]

This isn't based on ME2, fchopin. Didn't you read the OP? It's based on PnP RPG design, which is more advanced than CRPG design.

@ The Edge: assuming you don't go to learn-by-doing, you still give out XP, but you give out XP for achieving meaningful things within the game. So when you complete a quest or a discrete step towards completing that quest, you get a lump of XP. The advantage is that you can be neutral about how the player chose to complete the quest. Essentially, all XP is quest XP.

Edit: combat wouldn't be a waste of time. Pointless combat would be a waste of time. REs still give you XP since they're an obstacle to you reaching whatever your destination is.

Modifié par AlanC9, 21 juillet 2010 - 04:18 .

[Fangirl17]

....



I dont agree with the OP BUT I do have a minor complant about the EXP. I hate it that the last person to hit the enemy gets ALL of the EXP.Alistair keeps stealing my EXP! I did most of the damage to the enemy,I want the most EXP! Gah its like a race to kill boss enemies because I want the huge boost of EXP.Anyway Im done ranting.

[Chuvvy]

Tirigon wrote...

Slidell505 wrote...

Tirigon wrote...
No. Seriously guys, stop having fun.

Fixed it.

Lol, fail.

In fact, I spend more time having fun here than you, I even got timebanned for having fun once....

So, funnily, no. You fail:kissing:

Are we seriously going to get into a debate about who has more fun? God ****ing damn it internet.

[Chuvvy]

Fangirl17 wrote...

....

I dont agree with the OP BUT I do have a minor complant about the EXP. I hate it that the last person to hit the enemy gets ALL of the EXP.Alistair keeps stealing my EXP! I did most of the damage to the enemy,I want the most EXP! Gah its like a race to kill boss enemies because I want the huge boost of EXP.Anyway Im done ranting.

Goes to everyone. I thought that as well untill I leveled up when someone else killed something.

[fchopin]

AlanC9 wrote...

This isn't based on ME2, fchopin. Didn't you read the OP? It's based on PnP RPG design, which is more advanced than CRPG design.

@ The Edge: assuming you don't go to learn-by-doing, you still give out XP, but you give out XP for achieving meaningful things within the game. So when you complete a quest or a discrete step towards completing that quest, you get a lump of XP. The advantage is that you can be neutral about how the player chose to complete the quest. Essentially, all XP is quest XP.

All i see is ME2 mentioned many times in the OP’s post, if op likes it so much maybe op should be playing the game.

[Quercus]

Slidell505 wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Slidell505 wrote...

Tirigon wrote...
No. Seriously guys, stop having fun.

Fixed it.

Lol, fail.

In fact, I spend more time having fun here than you, I even got timebanned for having fun once....

So, funnily, no. You fail:kissing:

Are we seriously going to get into a debate about who has more fun? God ****ing damn it internet.

Well, this is a mature community site, so why not? hahaha.

[searanox]

A simple system, for me, is one that gives the player experience based on solving quests. A given solution to a quest shouldn't reward any less experience than another, unless - and this is tough to figure out - that option is clearly an "easy way out" and requires far less effort on the player's behalf. Fallout 1 accomplished this to some degree in a few places, by subtracting a player's experience reward based on the number of quest-related enemies killed.



Of course, players should receive some sort of experience reward for defeating opponents - otherwise they may feel their approach to the game isn't validated. The difficult part, then, is really in choosing the game's focus, and building systems that work with it. Is your RPG primarily built around combat, or around interaction with NPCs and exploration? If you want to emphasise combat, then it makes sense to give a steady reward of experience to the player, but when combat is only one of many options, it starts to make a little less sense. What it's really all about is contextualising the violence the player commits. An RPG that focuses more on interaction, with combat as only one of many paths, needs to do a good job in making it clear why the player is fighting. The reasons can't be arbitrary, and for the game to believable, the player has to be allowed to question those. If the only option in a situation that makes sense to the player is violence, then the designer's goal has been accomplished.

[Tirigon]

Slidell505 wrote...

Are we seriously going to get into a debate about who has more fun? God ****ing damn it internet.

You started it.

[The Edge]

Fangirl17 wrote...

....

I dont agree with the OP BUT I do have a minor complant about the EXP. I hate it that the last person to hit the enemy gets ALL of the EXP.Alistair keeps stealing my EXP! I did most of the damage to the enemy,I want the most EXP! Gah its like a race to kill boss enemies because I want the huge boost of EXP.Anyway Im done ranting.

I had the same problem. My PC was really left out on the whole exp. binge the rest of the party was getting... It wasn't until the Fade sequence at the Mage's tower that my character got some exp. killings (because he was by himself).

[Fangirl17]

Slidell505 wrote...

Fangirl17 wrote...

....

I dont agree with the OP BUT I do have a minor complant about the EXP. I hate it that the last person to hit the enemy gets ALL of the EXP.Alistair keeps stealing my EXP! I did most of the damage to the enemy,I want the most EXP! Gah its like a race to kill boss enemies because I want the huge boost of EXP.Anyway Im done ranting.

Goes to everyone. I thought that as well untill I leveled up when someone else killed something.

WHAT?lol I knew that certian EXP goes to everyone but I didnt know THAT EXP goes to everyone too.Huh,well thanks for telling me that.

Edit:Hmm,are you sure it goes to everyone?I dont know..

Modifié par Fangirl17, 21 juillet 2010 - 04:24 .

[Dick Delaware]

Blackbaron15 wrote...

The old system works so what the hell is the point of changing it?

Because it's not a particularly good system. The problem is that it forces you into completing every mission the exact same way. When you're going through Jarvia's Hideout, the quest is completed the exact same way regardless of whether you've sided with Bhelen or Harrowmont, or whether your class is Mage, Warrior or Rogue. You don't have a way of intimidating her thugs, maybe getting in by lying and pretending you're working for Jarvia as a lyrium dealer (a nice alternate solution to the Rogek sidequest), pretending you're one of the Cartel if you're a Casteless Dwarf, sneaking past her guards, etc. You're just having trash mobs with the exact same tactics and abilities thrown at you in a poorly thought out manner. So of course you'll just kill them all for MOAR XP. It's just not particularly interesting and it makes the game feel more like a dungeon crawler with a few chatty bits in this place than a great RPG.

Compare this to something like Bloodlines, which had the best levelling system that I've seen in an RPG. Here, you don't gain XP for killing enemies, you gain it only for completing quests, regardless of the method. In fact, a diplomatic or stealthy approach might garner you extra XP in situations where it's appropriate.

This system is better because it allows you to truly role-play, as it doesn't limit reward simply to killing things. Though you can do that, too. So you can really do things in a variety of ways and solve quests in a manner that fits your character, like if you're playing as a silver-tongued rogue or a scheming blood mage. Providing XP per kill really limits your options if you want to play a different type of character than "monster slayer". It encourages you to go out and actively seek trash mobs, which isn't really all that interesting.

Realism has nothing to do with it - all RPG mechanics are meant to be an abstraction of real life anyways. You know anybody who can fit 70 Dragonbone Plate Mails inside of their little backpacks? Do you know any adventurers who can fight hordes of darkspawn, but never need to go to the bathroom? Neither do I. It has to do with good design, and I don't think it's good design to simply reward the player to just kill all the time every time as it's detrimental to role-playing. A combat-heavy build should be a viable way to play the game, of course, and obviously some enemies like the darkspawn aren't up to negotiating, but I think it really hampers the experience in a lot of quests where the only difference in how you play them is that instead of killing things with a big sword, you're killing things with fireballs instead.

Modifié par Dick Delaware, 21 juillet 2010 - 04:30 .

[Daewan]

Gotham’s Legendary Crime-Fighter Gradually Learns to Fight Crime



Adventurer Finds Killing Mole Rats Makes Him A Better Lockpick

[searanox]

The Edge wrote...

Fangirl17 wrote...

....

I dont agree with the OP BUT I do have a minor complant about the EXP. I hate it that the last person to hit the enemy gets ALL of the EXP.Alistair keeps stealing my EXP! I did most of the damage to the enemy,I want the most EXP! Gah its like a race to kill boss enemies because I want the huge boost of EXP.Anyway Im done ranting.

I had the same problem. My PC was really left out on the whole exp. binge the rest of the party was getting... It wasn't until the Fade sequence at the Mage's tower that my character got some exp. killings (because he was by himself).

Uh.  What?  The game shares experience points across all characters.

[Quercus]

searanox wrote...

The Edge wrote...

Fangirl17 wrote...

....

I dont agree with the OP BUT I do have a minor complant about the EXP. I hate it that the last person to hit the enemy gets ALL of the EXP.Alistair keeps stealing my EXP! I did most of the damage to the enemy,I want the most EXP! Gah its like a race to kill boss enemies because I want the huge boost of EXP.Anyway Im done ranting.

I had the same problem. My PC was really left out on the whole exp. binge the rest of the party was getting... It wasn't until the Fade sequence at the Mage's tower that my character got some exp. killings (because he was by himself).

Uh.  What?  The game shares experience points across all characters.

Shhhh, they don't need to know that...

[Orchomene]

The narration form as explained somewhere would make possible to have an XP system like in PST where you receive a bit of xp by kills and a big amount through dialogues by remembering what happened.

[Dick Delaware]

Orchomene wrote...

The narration form as explained somewhere would make possible to have an XP system like in PST where you receive a bit of xp by kills and a big amount through dialogues by remembering what happened.

That's good too. Really, anything is better than giving you the vast majority of XP just by killing random henchmen. In Diablo it's cool, because that's the entire point of the game, but for a game that isn't a hack-n'-slash, it sucks. The only thing that's worse is the Oblivion system, at least XP per kill doesn't actively encourage grinding and make you weaker for levelling, thanks to the brilliant Bethesda scaling system. 

The system in Oblivion is great in theory, and it would be great in execution too if there were more care taken into it's implementation.

[CybAnt1]

Dragon Age already awards you quest XP. You hardly notice, because there's almost never really any screen text telling you when XP have been awarded, or how much. You just have to notice your XP bar moves a few notches. 

That said, whether or not it awards combat XP (and I doubt any game that emphasizes combat as much as DA does would stop doing so), I agree with you it should also award XP for accomplishing other tasks. DA does give you XP for disarming traps, for example. But not for talking your way out of a situation, or other non-combat tasks. I agree the XP awards sources should be more diversified. 

[tmp7704]

Dick Delaware wrote...

This system is better because it allows you to truly role-play, as it doesn't limit reward simply to killing things. Though you can do that, too. So you can really do things in a variety of ways and solve quests in a manner that fits your character, like if you're playing as a silver-tongued rogue or a scheming blood mage. Providing XP per kill really limits your options if you want to play a different type of character than "monster slayer". It encourages you to go out and actively seek trash mobs, which isn't really all that interesting.

But as long as about the only benefit of gaining the xp is unlocking new moves that allow one to kill things even more efficiently, associating this with activities which avoid combat doesn't make much sense nor has much to do with "allowing true role-play". If there's problem with the system here then it runs quite deeper, and that's by not providing player with options other than combat to begin with.

On the other hand, while the idea of providing other options can feel great in one's head, when you translate it into the game it can quickly turn into something even more simplistic and boring than the combat -- if the alternatives are to stealth past enemy or to threaten them in dialogue, and these involve just hitting the "stealth" button or activating the dialogue and selecting "threaten" option... well, that's not really much fun, is that?

[AlanC9]

fchopin wrote...

All i see is ME2 mentioned many times in the OP’s post, if op likes it so much maybe op should be playing the game.

Well, I guess you could read it that way if you're being lazy or just really, really hate ME2. What I saw was:

XP per kill is a TERRIBLE oldfashioned idea, which most modern PnP RPG's, besides DnD, have long left behind.

It discourages any attempts at finding options other than fighting, and makes people chase around the whole map in order to wipe out every single opponent, and creates these absurd situations there was so many of in DA:O, where a party of four somehow manages to wipe out a forest full of werewolves.

This states the position. Then we have:

One of the few good things that ME2 implemented was mission xp. A far better system, although it needs a lot of improvement over ME2. What it needs is:

Which cites ME2 as an example of a design that moved towards the goal without being a perfect version of it.  It's not that he wants ME2, it's that ME2 came closer to the goal than DA did.

As a recent RPG ME2 is a reasonable example to use. I suppose he could have cited WW1, or any number of highly-rated NWN1 and 2 mods, but those are somewhat less useful here since not as many of us have played them. Citing PnP RPG designs would be even less useful since there really aren't very many PnP players here at all.

Modifié par AlanC9, 21 juillet 2010 - 05:05 .

[Ravenwoud]

they should also give xp if you succesfully persuade or intimidate someone cuz often you just WANT someone to attack you so you get more xp.



example: that knight at the denerim market wants a duel to death. i could pesuade him not to do it.

but it is even better to go to him and then make him attack you together with his guards. wich is more xp

[Majin Paul]

I wouldn't say no to that kind of exp system, I thought it was a decent system in ME2, my only problem is that it could make combat even less enjoyable, the combat in DA:O was the worst part of the game for me, I'm not sure if I'd like it more or less if the combat in DA2 meant that I went trhough a similar system but no exp to make it worth it.

[Tirigon]

Daewan wrote...

Gotham’s Legendary Crime-Fighter Gradually Learns to Fight Crime

Adventurer Finds Killing Mole Rats Makes Him A Better Lockpick

This is the incarnation of awesome.

[Blackbaron15]

AlanC9 wrote...

Blackbaron15 wrote...

The old system works so what the hell is the point of changing it?

Because a different system would work better?

I'ts OK to disagree that the change would actually make the game better; that's what the thread's for. But to say that there's no point to changing anything that works? So we should be playing Pool of Radiance now? Or Ultima 4?

Only if it is clear the new system works better the old sytem worked just fine and personally the new xp system people are talking about doesnt sound like a good idea.

[Dick Delaware]

Why?