805 réponses à ce sujet

[javierabegazo]

David Gaider wrote...

I don't doubt some amount of marketing went into the image you see-- they wanted a recognizeable "face" that a player could identify with-- but I also suspect that the largest part is simply that the artists wanted to create someone they thought was cool.

A femHawke would be nice to see, though, and I doubt there's any harm in asking for one.

Thats precisely what I mean, and is the reason why they chose Sheploo to be the 'face' of the Mass Effect Trilogy. Like it or hate it, that face is recognizable and does it's job, marketing wise

[Addai]

The fact that Bethany is shown in the promotional shots- a woman who's not there merely to provide "heroic cleavage" but to actually do something useful and interesting- in itself speaks pretty well for the early promotion.

Modifié par Addai67, 22 juillet 2010 - 05:29 .

[Riona45]

Hawksblud wrote...

The heart of the issue is not that we are bothered by the pictures of the male warrior, nor that we are trying to encroach upon male representation. What bothers me, at least, is the omission, the lack of a female counterpart. It is the empty space which I find dissuading. We are not asking that the man on the advertising be replaced with a woman, but that he be joined by a woman.

And, no matter how politely we bring the issue up, we're bound to get shouted down, condescendingly told it's not important and/or targeted by sexist comments.  I see it happen all the time (not only with women's issues either, and not only on "minor" issues).  And then people wonder why we feel angry.

[Ziggy]

javierabegazo wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
I don't doubt some amount of marketing went into the image you see-- they wanted a recognizeable "face" that a player could identify with-- but I also suspect that the largest part is simply that the artists wanted to create someone they thought was cool.

A femHawke would be nice to see, though, and I doubt there's any harm in asking for one.

Thats precisely what I mean, and is the reason why they chose Sheploo to be the 'face' of the Mass Effect Trilogy. Like it or hate it, that face is recognizable and does it's job, marketing wise

That's no reason to ignore femHawke altogether though...

[NKKKK]

Yes David, please make preview a femhawke, don't be like the ME guys

[Riona45]

SebastianDA wrote...
3. Other characters/companions will be revealed in time. Right now a lot of attention is being given to Cassandra/Bethany/Flemeth, all female. I'm not even aware of any male characters in the game except male-optional Hawke.

You know, that's a really good point.

PS:  I know of one male character so far--the dwarf Varric.

[Lyssistr]

David Gaider wrote...


I'm trying to picture what a single character would look like which would be politically neutral enough to be representative of everyone playing the game, appeasing those who feel the character should be female yet also attractive enough without being exploitive to appeal to the male audience and of a race that doesn't make anyone feel left out. It's not easy.

Not that I think there isn't a point here-- certainly these things deserve to be considered, as the issue of privilege is a touchy one (I think I just used that word in the same-sex romance thread... I have to be hitting my limit by now) but at some point trying to construct a character based primarily on minority profiling seems a bit futile to me. I don't doubt some amount of marketing went into the image you see-- they wanted a single recognizeable "face" that a player could identify with-- but I also suspect that the largest part is simply that the artists wanted to create someone they thought was cool.

A femHawke would be nice to see, though, and I doubt there's any harm in asking for one.

In that case, I demand(!) to be given the front cover artist job, I have the job already done!

 

Modifié par Lyssistr, 22 juillet 2010 - 05:35 .

[Hattie]

NKKKK wrote...
Yes David, please make preview a femhawke, don't be like the ME guys

Here, here!

[London]

I still don't mind them telling one comprehensive "marketing" story. They should just add a generic "Female Hawk" photo example on the website. But, I'd prefer them sticking to one Hawke so every time I look at a screenshot I don't have to wonder if this is some new companion teaser or some new character no one recognizes.



Again, I can't relate to the chosen Hawke image whatsoever. He looks like he should be toting a machine gun or something. But, I'm more concerned with the content in the game above a marketing image.

[RosaAquafire]

David Gaider wrote...

I'm trying to picture what a single character would look like which would be politically neutral enough to be representative of everyone playing the game, appeasing those who feel the character should be female yet also attractive enough without being exploitive to appeal to the male audience and of a race that doesn't make anyone feel left out. It's not easy.

Not that I think there isn't a point here-- certainly these things deserve to be considered, as the issue of privilege is a touchy one (I think I just used that word in the same-sex romance thread... I have to be hitting my limit by now) but at some point trying to construct a character based primarily on minority profiling seems a bit futile to me. I don't doubt some amount of marketing went into the image you see-- they wanted a single recognizeable "face" that a player could identify with-- but I also suspect that the largest part is simply that the artists wanted to create someone they thought was cool.

A femHawke would be nice to see, though, and I doubt there's any harm in asking for one.

I'd just like to say that I really appreciate how willing you are to comment on issues that are touchy, David, you're a beacon for transparency and communication in an industry that tends to be wary of both

[Super_Cat]

I don't see why man Hawke and woman Hawke can't be marketed side by side in the same promotional images. I'm not talking in game shots, that wouldn't make sense, but ones like the main image on the Dragon Age 2 website, it could have had a man and a woman standing beside each other instead of the lone male Hawke

[Riona45]

David Gaider wrote...

Not that I think there isn't a point here-- certainly these things deserve to be considered, as the issue of privilege is a touchy one (I think I just used that word in the same-sex romance thread... I have to be hitting my limit by now)...

Maybe, but I liked your post in that thread as well.

[Hawksblud]

I am absolutely thrilled to see this discussion being conducted in a
sane, logical manner. So, props to everyone for that.

David Gaider wrote...
I'm trying to picture what a single character would look like which would be politically neutral enough to be representative of everyone playing the game, appeasing those who feel the character should be female yet also attractive enough without being exploitive to appeal to the male audience and of a race that doesn't make anyone feel left out. It's not easy.

Oh, agreed, it's impossible to represent everyone. We live in a world of infinite possibilities, and any programmer will tell you that some things cannot be computed. But I think it's important to try, you know? Sometimes putting in the effort is equally important, and Bioware goes a long way towards putting in the effort. (It's absolutely amazing that I can have a female Warden, or a Jane Shepard, or a Revan who is, incidentally, a woman, and that's something that is rarely seen.) What I'm trying to say, is that it's not something that's ever over. It's a continual struggle towards representation, not just in this game but in every facet of some people's lives. When you're hitting a glass ceiling at work, or being called names in the street, you don't want to encounter that in your fantasy world, which is something of a safe space where you are the hero. So people get frustrated at not being represented because it's something they deal with on a daily basis. It's bigger than this, and so long as that doesn't get lost, as long as it gets considered, I think it'll all work out. 

[iTomes]

Super_Cat wrote...

I don't see why man Hawke and woman Hawke can't be marketed side by side in the same promotional images. I'm not talking in game shots, that wouldn't make sense, but ones like the main image on the Dragon Age 2 website, it could have had a man and a woman standing beside each other instead of the lone male Hawke

and all five minutes someone would ask in this very forum: "whose the gurl whos theh guyy?" and we all would waste another ten minutes of our lives explaining, while rumors would say the romance option would be fixated on one character..... 

[CalJones]

I'm a veteran female gamer and honestly, I don't care what character appears on the box art so long as I can determine how my character looks. My main beef is that the body models used for most females are too skinny and busty for me to identify with them. After 20+ years of lifting weights, I have a nice athletic shape and it irks me when characters like FemShep are narrow-shouldered and scrawny. It's partly down to this that I actually prefer playing male characters. I hope Bioware improves on the female character models this time around.



As for marketing, perhaps more focus should be placed on some other facet of the game. If you looked at the marketing for BG, it was all about Sarevok. Don't try to give us an iconic hero - give us an iconic villain. Much cooler, and still leaves us room to determine who we think we should be.

[RosaAquafire]

Riona45 wrote...

And, no matter how politely we bring the issue up, we're bound to get shouted down, condescendingly told it's not important and/or targeted by sexist comments.  I see it happen all the time (not only with women's issues either, and not only on "minor" issues).  And then people wonder why we feel angry.

I think this is part of why I'm so frustrated ... I've been looking at my posts earlier in the thread because apparently some people took offense to them, but I tried my absolute best to be polite and respectful and reasonable, if firm. It seems -- and I'm not making accusations here or pointing to one particular person -- that a lot of the times, the ugliness in these discussions tend to come from people annoyed that they're happening in the first place, thinking that it's a nonissue.

If a lot of people are concerned about it, it's not a nonissue.

I really liked Hawksblud's post about how nobody is asking for the BeardHawke to be replaced, just accompanied. That's fantastically well said

[Saibh]

Super_Cat wrote...

I don't see why man Hawke and woman Hawke can't be marketed side by side in the same promotional images. I'm not talking in game shots, that wouldn't make sense, but ones like the main image on the Dragon Age 2 website, it could have had a man and a woman standing beside each other instead of the lone male Hawke

I think "side-by-side" is a little much to ask--it gets pretty confusing on who exactly the girl is (most would assume female love interest). I think it's not too much to ask to see her get acknowledged at various points. 

Honestly, I think my quota would be filled by a female trailer (even if it's not a full-length "theatrical" one) and a unique female model, similar to (I just learned this term from javier) Sheploo.

I don't need these things to want to play the game, but if they were included I'd jump around like a pregnant lady with a pickle jar.

[Riona45]

CalJones wrote...
As for marketing, perhaps more focus should be placed on some other facet of the game. If you looked at the marketing for BG, it was all about Sarevok. Don't try to give us an iconic hero - give us an iconic villain. Much cooler, and still leaves us room to determine who we think we should be.

Hmm, well, Flemeth as mentioned before seems to be pretty prominent in the marketing so far, although whether or not she's really a villain isn't too clear at this point.

[Chairon de Celeste]

David Gaider wrote...

I'm trying to picture what a single character would look like which would be politically neutral enough to be representative of everyone playing the game, appeasing those who feel the character should be female yet also attractive enough without being exploitive to appeal to the male audience and of a race that doesn't make anyone feel left out. It's not easy.

Not that I think there isn't a point here-- certainly these things deserve to be considered, as the issue of privilege is a touchy one (I think I just used that word in the same-sex romance thread... I have to be hitting my limit by now) but at some point trying to construct a character based primarily on minority profiling seems a bit futile to me. I don't doubt some amount of marketing went into the image you see-- they wanted a single recognizeable "face" that a player could identify with-- but I also suspect that the largest part is simply that the artists wanted to create someone they thought was cool.

A femHawke would be nice to see, though, and I doubt there's any harm in asking for one.

Here you go: Aimo's officially unofficial alternate pre-alpha concept art

http://aimo.deviantart.com/#/d2u7vnv
and as said earlier - even with a better armor than the R2D2 tin can for females from da o :innocent:

Thanks to Beerfish for initially posting the link in page 7 of this thread!

Modifié par Chairon de Celeste, 22 juillet 2010 - 05:45 .

[David Gaider]

Em23 wrote...
That's no reason to ignore femHawke altogether though...

That depends. As I understand it, part of the point of branding is providing images that the viewer can immediately associate with the brand. You dilute the image, do you gain anything for it in return? I don't really know. Perhaps if you made a femHawke that was also recognizeable as part of the brand? I'm not a marketing person-- but I will say that you've seen all of, what? A few images of Hawke so far? I think it's a bit early to declare our intentions as set in stone.

But as I said, by all means, ask for what you'd like to see.

[Guns3]

There's not even a problem here. There are more males playing so the poster character is male. There is a smaller female population so there is a female counterpart if you wish to play one. Simple as that.

[javierabegazo]

Saibh wrote...

I don't need these things to want to play the game, but if they were included I'd jump around like a pregnant lady with a pickle jar.

I had no idea pregnant ladies were so entralled by a jar of pickles...

[soteria]

Why do people even want an archetypal femHawke image? You'll be creating your own character, why do you want to see the work-up of the art department which won't have any bearing on your own game? *confused*

I feel the same way. As a man who plays female characters first, I just don't understand why you would want to see "Lady Hawke" in a trailer or something. That's not your character. At least, it's not my character, neither in looks nor in personality. Why should I care that they're not "acknowledging" my playstyle in marketing? I already knew I would be able to play a female character from when the game was first announced... what need is there for "official acknowledgement" via marketing?



And as for the people who thought they would have to play a male character... I'm sorry, but all I can say is that was just stupidity on their part, unless you think saying "Hawke, a survivor of the Blight" implies a man. I'd call that reaction sexist, honestly, especially considered in the light of every other Bioware game out there.

[London]

To be fair, "Hawke" is a more masculine than feminine name.



If someone said "someone with the codename Hawke" how would you assign a gender to that person? I'd assume "Male."

[Guns3]

javierabegazo wrote...

Saibh wrote...

I don't need these things to want to play the game, but if they were included I'd jump around like a pregnant lady with a pickle jar.

I had no idea pregnant ladies were so entralled by a jar of pickles...

Neither did I? Care to elaborate?