Personally my Dragon Age with Mods is the epitome of pro-sex feminism. My guys are all modded out for more revealing armor while my women are in robes that go from their chins down to their feet showing no skin whatsoever. Add in the bonnet-hats and it's essentially a burqa.
Male driven marketing
Débuté par
paperclipgirl102
, juil. 22 2010 12:03
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#327
Posté 22 juillet 2010 - 06:24
RosaAquafire
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Addai67 wrote...
All games are like that, though. Seriously, a game store ranks just under an adult bookstore as a place where you... just don't fit in. And don't much care about the merchandise.
I'm in my 30s, though, and I think that will change for newer generations as more women tell their friends about games they like and younger women with a gaming habit grow up and start waving their wallets at game designers. Seriously, I can't fault Bioware at all, after playing a game that not only had such poignant story lines, a sweet romance story like Alistair's that practically doesn't exist anymore, AND pretty realistic female body models.
I really do absolutely agree with this, and let me say again that I REALLY think that BW is one of the best developpers out there for this, if not possibly THE best. Gay romances, playable women, such effort into the female-only paths (the Alistair romance for example) and so forth. Not only that, but while we might not look FANTASTIC in armour, we look like we're about to go into a melee and not a harem. I'll never say that Bioware isn't the best company to love as a woman and I deeply appreciate all that they do for us and other minorities.
But I don't think that's any reason not to hope for even more strides to be taken. In fact, I think the only reason why most of us feel comfortable bringing this issue up to BW is because they ARE so good to their female fans
#328
Posté 22 juillet 2010 - 06:24
Hawksblud
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Aristorum wrote...
Men are smart enough not to read it.joriandrake wrote...
what? if anything at all, it makes the men look stupid
Plenty of guys I know sat through the movies for a girlfriend.
We're all pretty simple creatures.
#329
Posté 22 juillet 2010 - 06:25
joriandrake
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Aristorum wrote...
Men are smart enough not to read it.joriandrake wrote...
Aristorum wrote...
It's pop culture media like that that leaves women looking stupid.SebastianDA wrote...
Maybe the poster for Dragon Age should be Bella Hawke frowning and looking depressed, while Edward Companion and Jacob Companion fight over her while some darkspawn look confused in the background.
what? if anything at all, it makes the men look stupid
nope
*smirks proudly while thinking about the description reminds him about some very funny anime moments*
#330
Posté 22 juillet 2010 - 06:26
London
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Okay, slight off topic. But one str8 guy I know was tricked into seeing Twilight Saga: New Moon. his girlfriend showed him the preview, which was 20 seconds of them running around the forrests and the werewolves fighting the vampires. She told him it was like Underworld. Then we got to the movie and it was 2 hours of talking and the same 20 seconds from the previews of action. So, he would be one pretty dumb guy.
#331
Posté 22 juillet 2010 - 06:26
Hawksblud
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To get back on topic, yes. I'm nodding along with all of this.RosaAquafire wrote...
I really do absolutely agree with this, and let me say again that I REALLY think that BW is one of the best developpers out there for this, if not possibly THE best. Gay romances, playable women, such effort into the female-only paths (the Alistair romance for example) and so forth. Not only that, but while we might not look FANTASTIC in armour, we look like we're about to go into a melee and not a harem. I'll never say that Bioware isn't the best company to love as a woman and I deeply appreciate all that they do for us and other minorities.
But I don't think that's any reason not to hope for even more strides to be taken. In fact, I think the only reason why most of us feel comfortable bringing this issue up to BW is because they ARE so good to their female fans
#332
Posté 22 juillet 2010 - 06:27
London
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Also back on topic, I agree. The fact that there are enough women to come here and feel comfortable enough and care enough to even have this topic (with mods responding) speaks volumes.
#333
Guest_Yenaquai_*
Posté 22 juillet 2010 - 06:41
Guest_Yenaquai_*
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Hmmm...
Personally, and I think most female games would agree, do not mind playing a male protagonist. I loved "Assassin's Creed", "The Witcher", I mostly play Bill or Francis in L4D. - The difference is that those game solely feature the mainprotagonist as a playable character (or in L4D's case four main characters) and it's absolutely logical to use those characters for videos, advertising etc.
With DA2 and ME there is a completely different game-concept that is supposed to tell the story of a character that YOU created, with your input, your choices, your morality and your playstyle.
So I find it horribly counterproductive to advertise the game as something that it is not.
I can completely understand that there needs to be a face for trailers. - Either male or female is pretty much not really important for me. I just don't understand why games like ME1&2 and now DA2 need a general face. Because in the end "Hawke" just stays this, a face. Like the default John Shepard. He is nothing more than a preset character with no more history and personality than any character YOU create.
That's why I've never played the default Shep, because he was this blank face I couldn't relate to, this character that was not mine.
In my opinion there doesn't need to be a face. The red dragon is the best icon you can get.
And if they need a face, then at least they should be clear about what they advertise. Ergo, give us a female Hawke as well.
Personally, and I think most female games would agree, do not mind playing a male protagonist. I loved "Assassin's Creed", "The Witcher", I mostly play Bill or Francis in L4D. - The difference is that those game solely feature the mainprotagonist as a playable character (or in L4D's case four main characters) and it's absolutely logical to use those characters for videos, advertising etc.
With DA2 and ME there is a completely different game-concept that is supposed to tell the story of a character that YOU created, with your input, your choices, your morality and your playstyle.
So I find it horribly counterproductive to advertise the game as something that it is not.
I can completely understand that there needs to be a face for trailers. - Either male or female is pretty much not really important for me. I just don't understand why games like ME1&2 and now DA2 need a general face. Because in the end "Hawke" just stays this, a face. Like the default John Shepard. He is nothing more than a preset character with no more history and personality than any character YOU create.
That's why I've never played the default Shep, because he was this blank face I couldn't relate to, this character that was not mine.
In my opinion there doesn't need to be a face. The red dragon is the best icon you can get.
And if they need a face, then at least they should be clear about what they advertise. Ergo, give us a female Hawke as well.
#334
Posté 22 juillet 2010 - 06:59
soteria
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As a man who plays female characters first, I just don't understand why you would want to see "Lady Hawke" in a trailer or something. That's not your character. At least, it's not my character, neither in looks nor in personality. Why should I care that they're not "acknowledging" my playstyle in marketing?
I already knew I would be able to play a female character from when the game was first announced... what need is there for "official acknowledgment" via marketing? Even before the official confirmation in the forums that you could play a female character, I thought the "Why do I have to play a male character" complaints were pretty stupid. In fact, the complaint, based as it was off those five bullet points and a single picture, almost seems sexist to me.
I already knew I would be able to play a female character from when the game was first announced... what need is there for "official acknowledgment" via marketing? Even before the official confirmation in the forums that you could play a female character, I thought the "Why do I have to play a male character" complaints were pretty stupid. In fact, the complaint, based as it was off those five bullet points and a single picture, almost seems sexist to me.
#335
Posté 22 juillet 2010 - 07:12
DaringMoosejaw
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Hawksblud wrote...
Aristorum wrote...
Men are smart enough not to read it.joriandrake wrote...
what? if anything at all, it makes the men look stupid
Plenty of guys I know sat through the movies for a girlfriend.
Rifftrax! Man, Mike & the gang can even make those two things survivable. Can't wait for them to put out one for Eclipse.
TEAM JACOB!
Good to see the thread calmed down, at least. Marketing is an evil, evil business, but it gets results.
Modifié par DaringMoosejaw, 22 juillet 2010 - 07:14 .
#336
Posté 22 juillet 2010 - 07:14
Altima Darkspells
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What most game companies seem to be forgetting is the rapid increase in female gamers *despite* their marketting departments acting like they're a dirty little secret.
I'm beginning to think that if the marketing actually started giving the girls a little love, that 40% 'minority' might not be so insignificant as to not warrant so much as a random screenshot or demonstration video at a third rate convention where you can actually see the female protagonist in action. Especially since it seems it'd increase their fan base for future games.
I think everyone will agree that, towards release, DAO's marketting was just awful. Would it be too much trouble for BioWare to release a few screenshots of she!Hawke and perhaps a concept release? I don't think it would be. Would take, what, thirty minutes, tops?
Or is the marketting department going to try to pull another bait-and-switch, this time with fans of the original?
I'm beginning to think that if the marketing actually started giving the girls a little love, that 40% 'minority' might not be so insignificant as to not warrant so much as a random screenshot or demonstration video at a third rate convention where you can actually see the female protagonist in action. Especially since it seems it'd increase their fan base for future games.
I think everyone will agree that, towards release, DAO's marketting was just awful. Would it be too much trouble for BioWare to release a few screenshots of she!Hawke and perhaps a concept release? I don't think it would be. Would take, what, thirty minutes, tops?
Or is the marketting department going to try to pull another bait-and-switch, this time with fans of the original?
#337
Posté 22 juillet 2010 - 07:16
Saibh
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soteria wrote...
As a man who plays female characters first, I just don't understand why you would want to see "Lady Hawke" in a trailer or something. That's not your character. At least, it's not my character, neither in looks nor in personality. Why should I care that they're not "acknowledging" my playstyle in marketing?
I already knew I would be able to play a female character from when the game was first announced... what need is there for "official acknowledgment" via marketing? Even before the official confirmation in the forums that you could play a female character, I thought the "Why do I have to play a male character" complaints were pretty stupid. In fact, the complaint, based as it was off those five bullet points and a single picture, almost seems sexist to me.
Because the men get a face, that's why. >[
...
Let me put it this way: the reason we have a "face" for male Hawke is so that he's instantly recognizable. When you see him in screenshots, or concept art, or in future trailers, you know who it is. I'm sure there are plenty of people who'd like to see variations, but that's the marketing reason and it's not going to change. So, if a female Hawke is presented, coming as one particular face tells us she's being marketed as a Hawke, instead of just showing off mage powers or dialogue wheels or whatever we see in the screenshot.
Also, just as some people like believing Shepard or the Warden or the Dog have one set name, they like seeing one set face, since when you see that character in artwork you go, "hey, that's my guy!"
#338
Posté 22 juillet 2010 - 07:39
soteria
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Let me put it this way: the reason we have a "face" for male Hawke is so that he's instantly recognizable. When you see him in screenshots, or concept art, or in future trailers, you know who it is. I'm sure there are plenty of people who'd like to see variations, but that's the marketing reason and it's not going to change. So, if a female Hawke is presented, coming as one particular face tells us she's being marketed as a Hawke, instead of just showing off mage powers or dialogue wheels or whatever we see in the screenshot.
Sure, the poster-boy Grey Warden for the various trailers, both in-game and CG, made it easier to tell who was the main character and who was the companion. Maybe I'm just tired, but that last sentence doesn't seem entirely coherent. Can you clarify?
Also, just as some people like believing Shepard or the Warden or the Dog have one set name, they like seeing one set face, since when you see that character in artwork you go, "hey, that's my guy!"
Personally speaking, I'm more likely to be annoyed if I see "my guy," as I prefer to be unique (even if it's only in my imagination). Whenever I see gameplay clips from ME, my normal thought is, "That's not what Shepard looks like."
#339
Posté 22 juillet 2010 - 07:42
Massadonious1
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Maybe it's just me, but I don't see how having a strapping, handsome male protagonist as their box art caters more towards male players. I understand the whole "badass" mythos, I'm going to see The Expendables partly because of it. But, I'm also going to see The Expendables because it looks like an awesome popcorn flick, not because Sylvester Stallone or Jason Statham are showing off their biceps on the movie poster.
Modifié par Massadonious1, 22 juillet 2010 - 07:44 .
#340
Posté 22 juillet 2010 - 07:43
joriandrake
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I see this as a possible pretext to create a canon Hawke for a possible future DA movie, just as what they do with ME
#341
Posté 22 juillet 2010 - 07:47
Guns3
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joriandrake wrote...
I see this as a possible pretext to create a canon Hawke for a possible future DA movie, just as what they do with ME
You mean a project that's a huge money sink and doesn't end up being released?
or
A "movie" that ends up being terrible and just tarnishing the game's name?
#342
Posté 22 juillet 2010 - 07:49
hangmans tree
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I find a more problematic issue here. The game is supposed to be of mature rating but still I have a feeling its like a ploy - coz the marketing will go for the teen audiences...
nevermind that.
To the topic: it's always good to present a cannonical figure, as to which gender is chosen - I do not find it a fault to make it a woman. Or a man for that matter. Although I always play my own gender when possible, reason behind this is easy - identefying with the protagonist.
I know males tend to play female toons more often and saying "when I play for so many hours I want to look at something I like, not a blokes arse". So promoting a female Hawke may be a better idea
But hey, give 'em a finger, they will take the arm! So next would be: why not a homosexual hero on the cover!?
Maybe a male in a female dress would do? Would that help?
C'mon people, you're not being omitted, ignored or the like, it's a choice. The game itself supports division and depends on player choices from the early beginning.
Unnecessary ruckus imo.
nevermind that.
To the topic: it's always good to present a cannonical figure, as to which gender is chosen - I do not find it a fault to make it a woman. Or a man for that matter. Although I always play my own gender when possible, reason behind this is easy - identefying with the protagonist.
I know males tend to play female toons more often and saying "when I play for so many hours I want to look at something I like, not a blokes arse". So promoting a female Hawke may be a better idea
But hey, give 'em a finger, they will take the arm! So next would be: why not a homosexual hero on the cover!?
Maybe a male in a female dress would do? Would that help?
C'mon people, you're not being omitted, ignored or the like, it's a choice. The game itself supports division and depends on player choices from the early beginning.
Unnecessary ruckus imo.
#343
Posté 22 juillet 2010 - 07:52
Orchomene
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Typical fantasy picture :
http://www.cracked.c.../conanintro.jpg
A strong male hero holding a weapon with an almost nude female at his feet. It has become some standard that takes time to culturally change.
http://www.cracked.c.../conanintro.jpg
A strong male hero holding a weapon with an almost nude female at his feet. It has become some standard that takes time to culturally change.
#344
Posté 22 juillet 2010 - 07:55
Firky
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Well, I'd love to know what proportion of DA players are female. I don't suppose there is any way to find out? Hanging around these forums give me impression there are a LOT of women who love this game, anyway.
Also, as a woman, I have to say I think Hawke is cute. And I generally play male protagonist first, for some reason. And was not bothered in the slightest by only playing Geralt in The Witcher.
(Sorry, I am really into fostering gender inclusivity in gaming too. I just like whatever character I'm thrown into the role of.)
Also, as a woman, I have to say I think Hawke is cute. And I generally play male protagonist first, for some reason. And was not bothered in the slightest by only playing Geralt in The Witcher.
(Sorry, I am really into fostering gender inclusivity in gaming too. I just like whatever character I'm thrown into the role of.)
#345
Posté 22 juillet 2010 - 07:58
hangmans tree
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I agree, this is exactly what I think when playing/watchin those games. I always have in mind my avatar not the default and generic created by the developer...soteria wrote...
Personally speaking, I'm more likely to be annoyed if I see "my guy," as I prefer to be unique (even if it's only in my imagination). Whenever I see gameplay clips from ME, my normal thought is, "That's not what Shepard looks like."
My always look better ;D
#346
Posté 22 juillet 2010 - 08:10
hangmans tree
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Oh, The Witcher is at some point a fine example. So many women loved the game and didn't find it difficult to sink in the story...but the other side of coin is that Geralt is a predefined character with rich and deep history. DA is different 'coz you start your journey from scratch. Gender and race alike.
BTW I wonder how the hell did they determined the 40-60 % rate of gamers? I find it doubtful at best. I asked and red on the forums so called hardcore gamers and the reply was that neither them or their freinds or their frends friends didnt participate in no survey. So who did? Companys generator?
BTW I wonder how the hell did they determined the 40-60 % rate of gamers? I find it doubtful at best. I asked and red on the forums so called hardcore gamers and the reply was that neither them or their freinds or their frends friends didnt participate in no survey. So who did? Companys generator?
#347
Posté 22 juillet 2010 - 08:15
Saibh
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soteria wrote...
Sure, the poster-boy Grey Warden for the various trailers, both in-game and CG, made it easier to tell who was the main character and who was the companion. Maybe I'm just tired, but that last sentence doesn't seem entirely coherent. Can you clarify?
Oh, sorry! I meant, if she has a particular face she's being marketed as a female Hawke across the board, rather than seeing a random woman using a mage spell in one shot and a bow in another.
#348
Posté 22 juillet 2010 - 08:16
joriandrake
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Guns3 wrote...
joriandrake wrote...
I see this as a possible pretext to create a canon Hawke for a possible future DA movie, just as what they do with ME
You mean a project that's a huge money sink and doesn't end up being released?
or
A "movie" that ends up being terrible and just tarnishing the game's name?
a movie that leaves you with a bad taste in mouth because once you see it you realize how much they canonized what the protagonist looks like, said and did and how very much these differ from your own choices
#349
Posté 22 juillet 2010 - 08:16
Lyssistr
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I know males tend to play female toons more often and saying "when I play for so many hours I want to look at something I like, not a blokes arse". So promoting a female Hawke may be a better idea
^^
this man speaks the truth
#350
Posté 22 juillet 2010 - 08:18
joriandrake
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toons?
what, Bioware now makes a Toonstruck 2 rpg?
what, Bioware now makes a Toonstruck 2 rpg?
