805 réponses à ce sujet

[Saibh]

Wishpig wrote...

PriscilaSSR wrote...
Still, is sad that men can't look outside themselves and identify with anything but their reflection.

Really???

Saibh wrote...

Kolos2 wrote...

female
heroes dont sell as well as testosterone;

And i find it amusing
that someone put Lara Croft as an example, as her hmm upper body
strenght got increased in every new sequel

To put this in
perspective, only Mass Effect has a man as a more obvious face than the
woman. Baldur's Gate and NWN don't even have people on them.

Mass Effect also out sold them all by a longshot... I think... don't quote me on that one.

Of course, but then you could argue Mass Effect only does so well based on the success of previous BioWare games--and

KotOR--http://www.vgchartz.com/worldtotals.php?name=knights%20of%20the%20old%20republic

ME--http://www.vgchartz.com/worldtotals.php?name=mass%20effect

Dragon Age (and the expansion)--http://www.vgchartz.com/worldtotals.php?name=dragon%20age#

I wouldn't say out sold them by a "longshot"--in fact, KotOR and DA did better than the first ME. ME2, I think, is their bestseller.

EDIT: My hyperlinks are failing.

Modifié par Saibh, 22 juillet 2010 - 05:10 .

[Clover Rider]

joriandrake wrote...

Some Geth wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

I was born in 83, but I played the oldest games first when I got my first PC, like Goblins and Larry 1-2 and lots of adventure games, I also love to play chess and was always easier to talk to older people than my own generation

anyway, my experience with old games allows me to say "good ol' days" despite my young age


EDIT: gosh people you type too fast

1993 here but I have a love of movies/books/comics/shows/games all the way back to the 40s 

you make me feel old ... dat not good

Just think that you are a baby .

[Riona45]

joriandrake wrote...

to be fair, in recent years most of the time when feminism comes into play it doesn't have the original meaning but women who complain about things use it as an excuse to demand things to be pro-female pro-their dominance, instead of wanting real equality, it is as if the worl starts to go from male dominated stuff to female dominated one

I am all for gender equality in jobs but to replace one inequality for another worries me too

Ah, a definition of feminism from a guy who obviously doesn't understand it.  That's helpful.

Not that I'm surprising, given certain other statements I've seen you make.

[iTomes]

joriandrake wrote...

Hawksblud wrote...

Saibh wrote...
2) Mages aren't an underrepresented minority. No one is going to identify with them. There isn't an apostate sitting behind his computer feeling left out.

This. This, so hard.

PriscilaSSR wrote...
Still, is sad that men can't look outside themselves and identify with anything but their reflection.

Yes. It's also sad that women are expected to always be able to identify with a male lead, whereas men shy away from having to identify with a female lead. In the RPG genre, we (supposedly) are focused on characterization, on stepping into a character who is not us. None of us are Ferelden Wardens, for example. Why the difficulty going one step farther? Again, I'll reiterate: why is it stranger to be a dominant woman than to cast spells that light your enemies on fire?

One of the best RPG-s I ever played was Septerra Core with a girl as main character

i really enjoyed venetica.. scarlett:wub:

[Arttis]

Hawksblud wrote...

Saibh wrote...
2) Mages aren't an underrepresented minority. No one is going to identify with them. There isn't an apostate sitting behind his computer feeling left out.

This. This, so hard.

PriscilaSSR wrote...
Still, is sad that men can't look outside themselves and identify with anything but their reflection.

Yes. It's also sad that women are expected to always be able to identify with a male lead, whereas men shy away from having to identify with a female lead. In the RPG genre, we (supposedly) are focused on characterization, on stepping into a character who is not us. None of us are Ferelden Wardens, for example. Why the difficulty going one step farther? Again, I'll reiterate: why is it stranger to be a dominant woman than to cast spells that light your enemies on fire?

A dominant woman constantly tests a man self control...jk
Anyways i think you guys are overreacting...Plenty of men play as women in RPGs and so on.Heck I bet a million or so men played as the woman in FF13.
Problem is.....you go one way or another because sometimes the half way is not effective or smart.
If this makes sense to anyone explain it to me:lol:

[Riona45]

Arttis wrote...

Its ok to hate men...I love women who hate men...The challenge...

I don't hate men, but I do have contempt for you if that makes you feel better.

[Amentep]

joriandrake wrote...

javierabegazo wrote...

JakePT wrote...

I don't see the need to market with a recognisable face. One of the most successful games of all time, Modern Warfare 2, didn't have one. Maybe it's different for an RPG, I don't know.

It's totally different for an RPG.   RPG's are totally story based, and thus character based.  MW2 is really at it's heart JUST a shooter, and thus the focus is on guns and multiplayer

was there any face for the marketing of Icewind Dale 1-2?

My memory isn't what it used to be.

But Icewind Dale had a 2 page magazine ad was was character portraits on the top left, two screenshots on the bottom left and the box logo and symbol on the right with a background taken from one of the settings.

Heart of Winter's ad was a dude with an axe fighting a white dragon (with two small screenshots and the logo) and a poster of some skeletons with some sort of ghostly dragon.

I seem to recall Icewind Dale II's advertising featured the twins (that are also at the center of the cover icon).

Baldur's Gate had a comic, but I can't remember the print ads.

Baldur's Gate II ad had the male guy in armor looking at an orb, the female thief and I believe one of Bodhi (or was that just wallpaper?) and a one page add with screenshots.

Modifié par Amentep, 22 juillet 2010 - 05:11 .

[joriandrake]

iTomes wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

Hawksblud wrote...

Saibh wrote...
2) Mages aren't an underrepresented minority. No one is going to identify with them. There isn't an apostate sitting behind his computer feeling left out.

This. This, so hard.

PriscilaSSR wrote...
Still, is sad that men can't look outside themselves and identify with anything but their reflection.

Yes. It's also sad that women are expected to always be able to identify with a male lead, whereas men shy away from having to identify with a female lead. In the RPG genre, we (supposedly) are focused on characterization, on stepping into a character who is not us. None of us are Ferelden Wardens, for example. Why the difficulty going one step farther? Again, I'll reiterate: why is it stranger to be a dominant woman than to cast spells that light your enemies on fire?

One of the best RPG-s I ever played was Septerra Core with a girl as main character

i really enjoyed venetica.. scarlett:wub:

Heh, I am just playing it myself, great developer team that, I also enjoyed their previous adventure game

[iTomes]

Riona45 wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

to be fair, in recent years most of the time when feminism comes into play it doesn't have the original meaning but women who complain about things use it as an excuse to demand things to be pro-female pro-their dominance, instead of wanting real equality, it is as if the worl starts to go from male dominated stuff to female dominated one

I am all for gender equality in jobs but to replace one inequality for another worries me too

Ah, a definition of feminism from a guy who obviously doesn't understand it.  That's helpful.

Not that I'm surprising, given certain other statements I've seen you make.

i actually think jorians right. i usually dont see what you would call a femenist really wanting equality, most are only focused on the women, and thats just sexism, too.

[Hawksblud]

Ulicus wrote...

It's a situation where you can really have your cake AND eat it... and it baffles me why they don't. 

They promised me cake... the cake is a lie!

joriandrake wrote...

One of the best RPG-s I ever played was Septerra Core with a girl as main character

Exactly. What the marketing team has not realized, apparently, is that men are capable of identifying with a female character and thus adding one to publicity does not hurt the game. Because this is the twenty-first century, and we've all played games which took us out of 'ourselves' and let us try on a different skin. This is why OP is so shocked at lack of femHawke visibility, of any sort-- because it is incongruous with the gamer base. 

[iTomes]

joriandrake wrote...

iTomes wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

Hawksblud wrote...

Saibh wrote...
2) Mages aren't an underrepresented minority. No one is going to identify with them. There isn't an apostate sitting behind his computer feeling left out.

This. This, so hard.

PriscilaSSR wrote...
Still, is sad that men can't look outside themselves and identify with anything but their reflection.

Yes. It's also sad that women are expected to always be able to identify with a male lead, whereas men shy away from having to identify with a female lead. In the RPG genre, we (supposedly) are focused on characterization, on stepping into a character who is not us. None of us are Ferelden Wardens, for example. Why the difficulty going one step farther? Again, I'll reiterate: why is it stranger to be a dominant woman than to cast spells that light your enemies on fire?

One of the best RPG-s I ever played was Septerra Core with a girl as main character

i really enjoyed venetica.. scarlett:wub:

Heh, I am just playing it myself, great developer team that, I also enjoyed their previous adventure game

now i want to play it again, too... ahh just lovin it^^

[Rogue Unit]

Riona45 wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

to be fair, in recent years most of the time when feminism comes into play it doesn't have the original meaning but women who complain about things use it as an excuse to demand things to be pro-female pro-their dominance, instead of wanting real equality, it is as if the worl starts to go from male dominated stuff to female dominated one

I am all for gender equality in jobs but to replace one inequality for another worries me too

Ah, a definition of feminism from a guy who obviously doesn't understand it.  That's helpful.

Not that I'm surprising, given certain other statements I've seen you make.

Yeah because a condesending and elitist attitude helps any cause.

[joriandrake]

Riona45 wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

to be fair, in recent years most of the time when feminism comes into play it doesn't have the original meaning but women who complain about things use it as an excuse to demand things to be pro-female pro-their dominance, instead of wanting real equality, it is as if the worl starts to go from male dominated stuff to female dominated one

I am all for gender equality in jobs but to replace one inequality for another worries me too

Ah, a definition of feminism from a guy who obviously doesn't understand it.  That's helpful.

Not that I'm surprising, given certain other statements I've seen you make.

I said the meaning of feminism in the recent years started to change, I never said it was that since the start, and if you read a lot of other comments you see it is not just my opinion

also, are you planning to flame me?

[II Relics II]

Woah, this whole topic just blew up into a gender war...

[Riona45]

Addai67 wrote...

I don't think that's the case here, and in the end it's just a video game.  Though that sensitivity kind of feeds on itself and permeates everything.  Personally I abhor the trend to stick a woman everywhere as a token.  Don't ruin good action movies by having Barbie with a machine gun show up, for instance. 

Because you know, if you're going to use a woman character, it just has to be Barbie.  Right.

[joriandrake]

Hawksblud wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

One of the best RPG-s I ever played was Septerra Core with a girl as main character

Exactly.

Maya

[Saibh]

iTomes wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

to be fair, in recent years most of the time when feminism comes into play it doesn't have the original meaning but women who complain about things use it as an excuse to demand things to be pro-female pro-their dominance, instead of wanting real equality, it is as if the worl starts to go from male dominated stuff to female dominated one

I am all for gender equality in jobs but to replace one inequality for another worries me too

Ah, a definition of feminism from a guy who obviously doesn't understand it.  That's helpful.

Not that I'm surprising, given certain other statements I've seen you make.

i actually think jorians right. i usually dont see what you would call a femenist really wanting equality, most are only focused on the women, and thats just sexism, too.

I said this earlier on the thread, but the loudest part of a group tends to be the smallest, which runs hand-in-hand with craziest. Anti-male is not what feminism is. If that's all the feminists you've been seeing it's because they throw up the biggest noise, and you don't notice the more reasonable, larger portion. Seriously, what you said was ignorant and offensive. Wanting equal rights is not a bad thing. Feminism =/= bad thing.

Modifié par Saibh, 22 juillet 2010 - 05:17 .

[joriandrake]

II Relics II wrote...

Woah, this whole topic just blew up into a gender war...

the topic pretty much started as gender war

[Hawksblud]

I guess, to better put my response: the issue is not that male gamers cannot identify with female characters-- the issue is that female characters are not shown, with the following explanation:

David Gaider wrote...

[...] I also suspect that the largest part is simply that the artists wanted to create someone they thought was cool. [...]

Now, no offense meant to Bioware, who are, as has been said, on the forefront of female visibility in Western RPG games, however the problem is a larger one. That our society does not think of a woman with equal possibility as a man for a cool hero character.

[Eleinehmm]

Riona45 wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

to be fair, in recent years most of the time when feminism comes into play it doesn't have the original meaning but women who complain about things use it as an excuse to demand things to be pro-female pro-their dominance, instead of wanting real equality, it is as if the worl starts to go from male dominated stuff to female dominated one

I am all for gender equality in jobs but to replace one inequality for another worries me too

Ah, a definition of feminism from a guy who obviously doesn't understand it.  That's helpful.

Not that I'm surprising, given certain other statements I've seen you make.

[Riona45]

joriandrake wrote...

I said the meaning of feminism in the recent years started to change, I never said it was that since the start, and if you read a lot of other comments you see it is not just my opinion

*shrug*  I don't really care that it's not just your opinion.  That has no bearing on the truth of the matter.

also, are you planning to flame me?

No.  Did you want me to? 

I probably could make you cry but I wasn't really interested in that.

[soteria]

1) I didn't say that archers/mages/whathaveyou shouldn't be, er, represented. I just said that some girls don't want just a throwaway screenshot of a random girl. That's not everyone--for some it's exactly what they want. I'm simply referring to the type of screenshot she'll be in, and I picked "girlier" classes, because that'd probably be the ones.

2) Mages aren't an underrepresented minority. No one is going to identify with them. There isn't an apostate sitting behind his computer feeling left out. That's a pretty offensive parallel you're making--it seems as if you're trying to say that it's unfair for women to want to see one female Hawke, when men want to see more iconic males representing classes.

And this is why I say there's an underlying sexist current against women in your argument. I never said anything about "more iconic males representing classes." I never mentioned gender at all, beyond "if Bioware uses a spear-wielding male warrior and a sword and board female warrior as game icons..." I'm not making that parallel (I said "people"), but you just did, I suppose. Neither the EA press release nor the DA2 homepage explicitly mentioned that you can play a male character, either, by the way--gender never came up. Why is the male dominance assumed? How do you expect to change society's perceptions and the way games are marketed if your own perceptions haven't changed?

And no, I don't buy that "Hawke" is a guy's name, any more than Smith, Torres, or Verner is a guy's name.

[Kolos2]

Hawksblud wrote...

Saibh wrote...
2) Mages aren't an underrepresented minority. No one is going to identify with them. There isn't an apostate sitting behind his computer feeling left out.

This. This, so hard.

PriscilaSSR wrote...
Still, is sad that men can't look outside themselves and identify with anything but their reflection.

Yes. It's also sad that women are expected to always be able to identify with a male lead, whereas men shy away from having to identify with a female lead. In the RPG genre, we (supposedly) are focused on characterization, on stepping into a character who is not us. None of us are Ferelden Wardens, for example. Why the difficulty going one step farther? Again, I'll reiterate: why is it stranger to be a dominant woman than to cast spells that light your enemies on fire?

Well might be that the two genders dont function or think the same way? i freely admit i cant reflect to a female lead; identify myself with it; nothing against equality but we aint the same

[Arttis]

Riona45 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

I don't think that's the case here, and in the end it's just a video game.  Though that sensitivity kind of feeds on itself and permeates everything.  Personally I abhor the trend to stick a woman everywhere as a token.  Don't ruin good action movies by having Barbie with a machine gun show up, for instance. 

Because you know, if you're going to use a woman character, it just has to be Barbie.  Right.

Barbies sell you know...young girls want them and young men and old men want them.It just works.

[joriandrake]

Saibh wrote...

iTomes wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

to be fair, in recent years most of the time when feminism comes into play it doesn't have the original meaning but women who complain about things use it as an excuse to demand things to be pro-female pro-their dominance, instead of wanting real equality, it is as if the worl starts to go from male dominated stuff to female dominated one

I am all for gender equality in jobs but to replace one inequality for another worries me too

Ah, a definition of feminism from a guy who obviously doesn't understand it.  That's helpful.

Not that I'm surprising, given certain other statements I've seen you make.

i actually think jorians right. i usually dont see what you would call a femenist really wanting equality, most are only focused on the women, and thats just sexism, too.

I said this earlier on the thread, but the loudest part of a group tends to be the smallest, which runs hand-in-hand with craziest. Anti-male is not what feminism is. If that's all the feminists you've been seeing it's because they throw up the biggest noise, and you don't notice the more reasonable, larger portion. Seriously, what you said was ignorant and offensive. Wanting equal rights is not a bad thing. Feminism =/= bad thing.

noone said that, but by now it would be perhaps better to say "I am for equality" instead of "I am feminist" to avoid misunderstanding,
nationalism was not a "bad word" neither before Hitler showed up, and the swatiska is a holy symbol that got defiled