805 réponses à ce sujet

[LadyVaJedi]

Don't forget that Laura Croft has big ass breast. And men love big breast, that still would be a big male selling point.

[Riona45]

Ahisgewaya wrote...

And yet women EXIST in the game. Whereas non caucasians do not (other than arguably the chasind).

Maybe start a thread about it then, if you haven't already?

[Ahisgewaya]

C9316 wrote...

Ahisgewaya wrote...

elebamf wrote...

Hawke and Shepard are also default white people.. where are complaints about that?

Uh....look three posts up from yours.

Oh no please don't bring THIS debate in here. We don't want this thread locked.(I'm also black)

Why not? It's every bit as valid. Not only that, but why on earth would they lock it? That would be a very bad PR move. If people don't speak up about these sort of things (including the issue of women in game as well) then there will be no change. 

[Monstruo696]

Riona45 wrote...

Ahisgewaya wrote...

And yet women EXIST in the game. Whereas non caucasians do not (other than arguably the chasind).

Maybe start a thread about it then, if you haven't already?

Already has been, already shot down.

This isn't "Politically Correct Age: The Game".

[iTomes]

Ahisgewaya wrote...

C9316 wrote...

Ahisgewaya wrote...

elebamf wrote...

Hawke and Shepard are also default white people.. where are complaints about that?

Uh....look three posts up from yours.

Oh no please don't bring THIS debate in here. We don't want this thread locked.(I'm also black)

Why not? It's every bit as valid. Not only that, but why on earth would they lock it? That would be a very bad PR move. If people don't speak up about these sort of things (including the issue of women in game as well) then there will be no change. 

guys, the last debatte with that topic became absolutely stupid after a short time, so please dont...

[Ahisgewaya]

Riona45 wrote...

Ahisgewaya wrote...

And yet women EXIST in the game. Whereas non caucasians do not (other than arguably the chasind).

Maybe start a thread about it then, if you haven't already?

hmm....chiefly because I hadn't thought of it yet. It's a very good idea though and I think I will do so now.

[RosaAquafire]

Monstruo696 wrote...

This isn't "Politically Correct Age: The Game".

Love how the people who whine about PC are straight white males. OMG guys why does anyone but us ever have to be pandered to??

Modifié par RosaAquafire, 22 juillet 2010 - 01:48 .

[Saibh]

Listen, most girls aren't saying that BioWare is made up of sexist, amoral pigs--they just wish they could see a change, even just a little one. That's not a bad thing to think. You're being represented, we're not. You'd probably feel way differently in our shoes, so don't judge. It's one thing to say "sorry, it's not going to happen" and it's another thing to say "stop bringing it up".

Obviously bringing it up let's the gaming industry know we exist, which is just a little helpful.

And what genre does that mostly fall into?

No goddamn clue, the study didn't say. Regardless, aren't there plenty of women here? I can guarantee you we don't make up some neglible (especially in the fantasy RPG genre) 10% or somesuch.

Ahisgewaya wrote...

Saibh wrote...
Complaints
are raised by the minority offended, generally, since they have the most
reason to be offended. Besides that, women are a larger minority--and
for every non-white man not being represented in marketing, there's a
non-white woman being doubly shorthanded.

And yet
women EXIST in the game. Whereas non caucasians do not (other than
arguably the chasind).

Not getting into that argument.

Modifié par Saibh, 22 juillet 2010 - 01:56 .

[RosaAquafire]

Saibh wrote...

Listen, most girls aren't saying that BioWare is made up of sexist,
amoral pigs--they just wish they could see a change, even just a little
one. That's not a bad thing to think. You're being represented, we're
not. You'd probably feel way differently in our shoes, so don't judge.
It's one thing to say "sorry, it's not going to happen" and it's another thing to say "stop bringing it up".

Absolutely, that's the entire point

The same applies to people of different races, sexualities, any minority who are marginalized by majority share marketting and attitudes.

[Lyssistr]

elebamf wrote...

Hawke and Shepard are also default white people.. where are complaints about that?

 In games taking place in fantasy worlds like medieval Europe, I find it pretty reasonable to default to white people. Pretty much as reasonable I find it for JE to default to asian people, Prince of Persia to default to arabic people or for e.g. a game called "you are the president" defaulting to black people, at least while Obama is the president.

 I can't see why these choices should be a basis for complaints. For Mass Effect specifically however, any racial background would be fit for purpose. Who knows, in the next ME trilogy, you may see a default protagonist with a different background.

[mopotter]

iTomes wrote...

mopotter wrote...

Andrastee wrote...

As a woman, I find it annoying, but I guess I can see where they're coming from. When games do get promoted with female characters, the tone is almost invariably 'look at this sexy chick wearing next to nothing!' which I would find even more annoying. So I guess Mike Hawke is the lesser of two potential evils from the marketing department.

I also find it annoying, and yes the sexy chick with the chainmail bra that would annoy me more because it would not be aimed at potential women players it would be aimed at the same male group they are trying for now.  And they are missing a whole group of potential buyers.  Women of all ages, who like a great story and think all video games are like Halo or Street Fighter.

I don't smoke, but I think the marketing people should look at how cigarettes were marketed to women and how many took up the habit because of the marketing.  I'm not comparing the two, although my husband does say I'm addicted to video games, but I am saying that if they marketed their games showing that women do enjoy playing them, and use some of the fan base they already have to show it, since we are a diverse group of women, more would be interested in trying them which would be more profits for the company.

hmmmm i think theres a difference: woman appearently have another liking area for video games. rpgs for example have a big female touch. but you cant compare it with cigarettes or something. if -for example- DA2 would do marketing with a female figure the game wouldn't sell very much. i mean, someone who (for example) started smoking will continue smoking, but a male who walks through a shop and would see a female market DA2 box would think ohhh its like the sims or something. and a female propably still wouldn't buy it because of the blood. so, after all, much less copies are sold. and not selling many copies of an game expensive to produce is not an option.

The smoking thing may not work, but my idea is that the guy, or girl who walks by and sees a game by a company they know, will probably buy the game no matter who is on the cover.  And typically a guy or girl  who walks buy and has played a lot of video games, knows that the cover may not mean anything other than, here check me out.  

But a lot of women, who would be interested in a game like DA or ME or any other BioWare game, won't even think about checking it out because it has someone like Hawke or Shepard on the cover and they immediately think it's a mindless game that their son would like -  not their daughter or them-self.  (not sure that's spelled right but there isn't any red line under it so maybe it is).

We have to start breaking the mind set somehow.  It may not happen till my granddaughter (that I don't have yet) is in marketing but hopefully someday this - women only play tetris - idea will die. (I do play tetris but I also play DA, FO3 and the like).

On the ME "official FemSep Fan thread (which I can't find now to give cedit where credit is due)  someone had suggested that in BioWare advertisement they have some that emphasize the character choices you have and that the image of Shepard (or Hawke) morph into many different faces young, old, different race, male and female and ends with something about What choice will you make.  I think that's a great marketing idea.  

[Lyssistr]

mopotter wrote...

 think it's a mindless game that their son would like -  not their daughter or them-self.  (not sure that's spelled right but there isn't any red line under it so maybe it is).

I just love when people who whine about stereotypes have their own 

[mopotter]

Slidell505 wrote...

Majority of gamers are male. They're just trying to appeal to the main demographic.

 

That is exactly the problem.   Which came first the chicken or the egg.  

If they did some of the advertisement towards women, or not directly towards guys,  the number of women players would increase.  I don't think the number of male players would decrease and I don't think all advertisement should be towards women.  But they are losing money by ignoring this potential buyer. 

[Ahisgewaya]

Lyssistr wrote...

elebamf wrote...

Hawke and Shepard are also default white people.. where are complaints about that?

 In games taking place in fantasy worlds like medieval Europe, I find it pretty reasonable to default to white people. Pretty much as reasonable I find it for JE to default to asian people, Prince of Persia to default to arabic people or for e.g. a game called "you are the president" defaulting to black people, at least while Obama is the president.

That's just the thing though, pretty much All fantasy games are set in a medieval Europe.  Jade Empire is the only one I've ever played with Humans who were something other than caucasian. BUT even in that game, there was ONE white guy. Not so with Dragon Age....

[Quinnzel]

Really Bioware, where is my beard wearing half naked female elf weilding a weapon 3 times the size of her? Face it, the big beefy action hero is what symbolises 'action adventure' to a lot of people (why do you think that for so long actors like Stallone and Arnie were the ONLY ones making action films?) thats not to say I dont want to see women on my front covers (I actually prefer it, lets face it, women are prettier than us men) but it's the human reaction and mental image to a lot of people. Lara Croft did chnage that, but has became more male centric sex appeal than overall action appeal.

The lack of any femShepard concept art however was total balls, players should at least get to see some of that if theyre being given the option to be a femShepard.

Modifié par Quinnzel, 22 juillet 2010 - 02:00 .

[Saibh]

Ahisgewaya wrote...

Lyssistr wrote...

elebamf wrote...

Hawke and Shepard are also default white people.. where are complaints about that?

 In games taking place in fantasy worlds like medieval Europe, I find it pretty reasonable to default to white people. Pretty much as reasonable I find it for JE to default to asian people, Prince of Persia to default to arabic people or for e.g. a game called "you are the president" defaulting to black people, at least while Obama is the president.

That's just the thing though, pretty much All fantasy games are set in a medieval Europe.  Jade Empire is the only one I've ever played with Humans who were something other than caucasian. BUT even in that game, there was ONE white guy. Not so with Dragon Age....

That one white guy was a racist a**hole. Funny. But racist a-hole. Just fact-checking for ya.

[Sabariel]

Yes, I'm a little tired of the: white, brunet, and male combination that not just Bioware puts forth, but I don't see it changing anytime soon.

[mopotter]

Lyssistr wrote...

mopotter wrote...

 think it's a mindless game that their son would like -  not their daughter or them-self.  (not sure that's spelled right but there isn't any red line under it so maybe it is).

I just love when people who whine about stereotypes have their own 

Stereotypes are exactly that, a generalization.  I do know women who would not buy their daughter a game like ME but would buy it for their son.  They exist.     

[Heimdall]

Ahisgewaya wrote...

Lyssistr wrote...

elebamf wrote...

Hawke and Shepard are also default white people.. where are complaints about that?

 In games taking place in fantasy worlds like medieval Europe, I find it pretty reasonable to default to white people. Pretty much as reasonable I find it for JE to default to asian people, Prince of Persia to default to arabic people or for e.g. a game called "you are the president" defaulting to black people, at least while Obama is the president.

That's just the thing though, pretty much All fantasy games are set in a medieval Europe.  Jade Empire is the only one I've ever played with Humans who were something other than caucasian. BUT even in that game, there was ONE white guy. Not so with Dragon Age....

I thought that's what Sten was there for...

[Saibh]

mopotter wrote...

Lyssistr wrote...

mopotter wrote...

 think it's a mindless game that their son would like -  not their daughter or them-self.  (not sure that's spelled right but there isn't any red line under it so maybe it is).

I just love when people who whine about stereotypes have their own 

Stereotypes are exactly that, a generalization.  I do know women who would not buy their daughter a game like ME but would buy it for their son.  They exist.     

Right. There's an "M" rating, you know? And most gamers aren't teenagers? And there are plenty of moms who would allow their daughter Mass Effect? In fact, I'm sure moms might be more willing to let their daughter play a game with sex than a son, the same way some parents are more trusting of the more "innocent" daughters over their sons.

[Lyssistr]

Ahisgewaya wrote...


That's just the thing though, pretty much All fantasy games are set in a medieval Europe.  Jade Empire is the only one I've ever played with Humans who were something other than caucasian. BUT even in that game, there was ONE white guy. Not so with Dragon Age....

That's pretty much equivalent to saying that JRPGs should not have asian people. Honestly, I don't see the point in this, is it a complaint about too many RPG games in medieval Europe? there's not too many of them anyhow, at least not too many of them that are good.

If the complaint is about all *fantasy* games being in a european medieval setting, I think you should be "blaming" Tolkien and the landscape of Oxfordshire instead of looking for a bias. Again, this is not correct because apart from Tolkienesque games there are JRPGs with a fantasy setting. There, default protagonists have an asian background, I'd find it out of context if they didn't do so.

I'd be on your side if it was Mass Effect you were talking about here -where no background makes more sense than any other- but for medieval European settings I expect the demographic to be representative of what it was like, same goes for JRPGs, games in Persia etc.

[C9316]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Ahisgewaya wrote...

Lyssistr wrote...

elebamf wrote...

Hawke and Shepard are also default white people.. where are complaints about that?

 In games taking place in fantasy worlds like medieval Europe, I find it pretty reasonable to default to white people. Pretty much as reasonable I find it for JE to default to asian people, Prince of Persia to default to arabic people or for e.g. a game called "you are the president" defaulting to black people, at least while Obama is the president.

That's just the thing though, pretty much All fantasy games are set in a medieval Europe.  Jade Empire is the only one I've ever played with Humans who were something other than caucasian. BUT even in that game, there was ONE white guy. Not so with Dragon Age....

I thought that's what Sten was there for...

Technically he is a qunari, I'm unsure an entirely different species lacking the racial stigmas of ours qualifies for a "black guy".

[iTomes]

mopotter wrote...

iTomes wrote...

mopotter wrote...

Andrastee wrote...

As a woman, I find it annoying, but I guess I can see where they're coming from. When games do get promoted with female characters, the tone is almost invariably 'look at this sexy chick wearing next to nothing!' which I would find even more annoying. So I guess Mike Hawke is the lesser of two potential evils from the marketing department.

I also find it annoying, and yes the sexy chick with the chainmail bra that would annoy me more because it would not be aimed at potential women players it would be aimed at the same male group they are trying for now.  And they are missing a whole group of potential buyers.  Women of all ages, who like a great story and think all video games are like Halo or Street Fighter.

I don't smoke, but I think the marketing people should look at how cigarettes were marketed to women and how many took up the habit because of the marketing.  I'm not comparing the two, although my husband does say I'm addicted to video games, but I am saying that if they marketed their games showing that women do enjoy playing them, and use some of the fan base they already have to show it, since we are a diverse group of women, more would be interested in trying them which would be more profits for the company.

hmmmm i think theres a difference: woman appearently have another liking area for video games. rpgs for example have a big female touch. but you cant compare it with cigarettes or something. if -for example- DA2 would do marketing with a female figure the game wouldn't sell very much. i mean, someone who (for example) started smoking will continue smoking, but a male who walks through a shop and would see a female market DA2 box would think ohhh its like the sims or something. and a female propably still wouldn't buy it because of the blood. so, after all, much less copies are sold. and not selling many copies of an game expensive to produce is not an option.

The smoking thing may not work, but my idea is that the guy, or girl who walks by and sees a game by a company they know, will probably buy the game no matter who is on the cover.  And typically a guy or girl  who walks buy and has played a lot of video games, knows that the cover may not mean anything other than, here check me out.  

But a lot of women, who would be interested in a game like DA or ME or any other BioWare game, won't even think about checking it out because it has someone like Hawke or Shepard on the cover and they immediately think it's a mindless game that their son would like -  not their daughter or them-self.  (not sure that's spelled right but there isn't any red line under it so maybe it is).

We have to start breaking the mind set somehow.  It may not happen till my granddaughter (that I don't have yet) is in marketing but hopefully someday this - women only play tetris - idea will die. (I do play tetris but I also play DA, FO3 and the like).

On the ME "official FemSep Fan thread (which I can't find now to give cedit where credit is due)  someone had suggested that in BioWare advertisement they have some that emphasize the character choices you have and that the image of Shepard (or Hawke) morph into many different faces young, old, different race, male and female and ends with something about What choice will you make.  I think that's a great marketing idea.  

well im not sure... but im pretty sure just trying it and getting the female players by the cover wont work. too less females are interested in video game like DA compared to guys. i mean, if were looking what dragon age is all about its not a game a woman buys by looking at it (blood and violence and stuff). but if youre putting those out, too youre not attracting males anymore...

[Ahisgewaya]

Lyssistr wrote...

If the complaint is about all *fantasy* games being in a european medieval setting, I think you should be "blaming" Tolkien and the landscape of Oxfordshire instead of looking for a bias. Again, this is not correct because apart from Tolkienesque games there are JRPGs with a fantasy setting. There, default protagonists have an asian background, I'd find it out of context if they didn't do so.

I'd be on your side if it was Mass Effect you were talking about here -where no background makes more sense than any other- but for medieval European settings I expect the demographic to be representative of what it was like, same goes for JRPGs, games in Persia etc.

Sorry, but the JRPG anology doesn't work. Why? Because I rarely ever see anyone with a different skin tone in those games either. Hell, some of the characters are blonde or redheads. You show me one naturally blonde full asian. 

[Saibh]

C9316 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Ahisgewaya wrote...

Lyssistr wrote...

elebamf wrote...

Hawke and Shepard are also default white people.. where are complaints about that?

 In games taking place in fantasy worlds like medieval Europe, I find it pretty reasonable to default to white people. Pretty much as reasonable I find it for JE to default to asian people, Prince of Persia to default to arabic people or for e.g. a game called "you are the president" defaulting to black people, at least while Obama is the president.

That's just the thing though, pretty much All fantasy games are set in a medieval Europe.  Jade Empire is the only one I've ever played with Humans who were something other than caucasian. BUT even in that game, there was ONE white guy. Not so with Dragon Age....

I thought that's what Sten was there for...

Technically he is a qunari, I'm unsure an entirely different species lacking the racial stigmas of ours qualifies for a "black guy".

...sigh...I really hate getting into this argument (I must escape, I must escape!), but considering that I really really really doubt we'll ever see black people being presented as the slaves of white men, you'll never see that social stigma in a fantasy RPG.

Besides that, we're not entirely sure what the Rivaini count as, in terms of parallel races. I will say that two of the native Orlesians you meet (out of three total) have Asian-looking features. Marjolaine has black hair and pale skin, but her eyes and features look pretty Caucasoid, to me.