805 réponses à ce sujet

[Heimdall]

C9316 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Ahisgewaya wrote...

Lyssistr wrote...

elebamf wrote...

Hawke and Shepard are also default white people.. where are complaints about that?

 In games taking place in fantasy worlds like medieval Europe, I find it pretty reasonable to default to white people. Pretty much as reasonable I find it for JE to default to asian people, Prince of Persia to default to arabic people or for e.g. a game called "you are the president" defaulting to black people, at least while Obama is the president.

That's just the thing though, pretty much All fantasy games are set in a medieval Europe.  Jade Empire is the only one I've ever played with Humans who were something other than caucasian. BUT even in that game, there was ONE white guy. Not so with Dragon Age....

I thought that's what Sten was there for...

Technically he is a qunari, I'm unsure an entirely different species lacking the racial stigmas of ours qualifies for a "black guy".

It makes a kind of sense though.  The white characters are from the Tolkeinesque medieval europe based fantasy continent while the qunari appear to be from an entirely different continent.  If we're taking this from a medieval european perspective.

[C9316]

Lord Aesir wrote...

C9316 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Ahisgewaya wrote...

Lyssistr wrote...

elebamf wrote...

Hawke and Shepard are also default white people.. where are complaints about that?

 In games taking place in fantasy worlds like medieval Europe, I find it pretty reasonable to default to white people. Pretty much as reasonable I find it for JE to default to asian people, Prince of Persia to default to arabic people or for e.g. a game called "you are the president" defaulting to black people, at least while Obama is the president.

That's just the thing though, pretty much All fantasy games are set in a medieval Europe.  Jade Empire is the only one I've ever played with Humans who were something other than caucasian. BUT even in that game, there was ONE white guy. Not so with Dragon Age....

I thought that's what Sten was there for...

Technically he is a qunari, I'm unsure an entirely different species lacking the racial stigmas of ours qualifies for a "black guy".

It makes a kind of sense though.  The white characters are from the Tolkeinesque medieval europe based fantasy continent while the qunari appear to be from an entirely different continent.  If we're taking this from a medieval european perspective.

In my opinion I figured the various Chasind and Harren were supposed to be "black".

[SirGladiator]

To me what they're doing is not so marketing to males so much as it is simply marketing badly. I enjoyed that Game Informer article, it was full of interesting information, but one of those pieces of information was, if all you knew about the game was what you read in the article, that you could only play as a male character. They never actually said those exact words (naturally, since its not true) but it was VERY much implied by the way the article was written. I would be surprised if the person who wrote the article didn't actually believe that in fact Hawke 'was' a male, that there was no female option, he certainly seemed to believe that by the way he always referred to Hawke as 'he' and never made any reference whatosever to the fact that you could in fact play as a female lead.



This may be some kind of attempt to market to males, but really what it actually is, more than anything else, is simply marketing really badly. Most players, male or female, like to play as female characters, either all or at least part of the time. To have one of the first major articles about the game, an article that will go a long way toward deciding for a LOT of people whether or not they're interested in the game, practically tell the reader that Hawke is strictly a male character, is just total stupidity at best. The result will not be people saying to themselves "Awesome, I can only play as a male character!" they will either not care, or look for other sources and find out that in fact you can play as a female character, or they won't bother and decide they aren't intested in the game. It's just a bad move, no two ways about it.



How many people have we seen on these very forums, where basicly the most informed Bioware fans are, asking whether they can play as a female in DA2? Its not because they dont know Bioware has a history of allowing you to play as a male or female, its because all the marketing so far has very strongly implied that you cant play as a female. We only know that you can play as a female at all because the Devs themselves have said that you can, the marketing people are basicly sending the opposite message, and that's what really should change.

[Ahisgewaya]

Lord Aesir wrote...

It makes a kind of sense though.  The white characters are from the Tolkeinesque medieval europe based fantasy continent while the qunari appear to be from an entirely different continent.  If we're taking this from a medieval european perspective.

A medieval Europe with elves, dwarves, and a spirit world no less.  

And that's just it too. These sort of games Are almost ALWAYS medeival Tolkien. Other cultures have their myths and heroic figures too you know.

Modifié par Ahisgewaya, 22 juillet 2010 - 02:24 .

[Heimdall]

Saibh wrote...

Besides that, we're not entirely sure what the Rivaini count as, in terms of parallel races. I will say that two of the native Orlesians you meet (out of three total) have Asian-looking features. Marjolaine has black hair and pale skin, but her eyes and features look pretty Caucasoid, to me.

so far it seems they're french  

[DaringMoosejaw]

The guys making these decisions were put in charge of the marketing department for a reason: It works. It has nothing to do with sexism. If they really thought throwing the female protagonist would make more money than the male one, they'd do it in a HEARTBEAT. They love making money! That's their goddamn job. Take your problems up with society instead of marketing.

[Heimdall]

Ahisgewaya wrote...

A medieval Europe with elves, dwarves, and a spirit world no less. 

*Looks up from his copy of the Silmarillion*

Naturally

And that's just it too. These sort of games Are almost ALWAYS medeival Tolkien. Other cultures have their myths and heroic figures too you know.

Yes, they do.  And I hope game developers branch out more in the future but that isn't much on the topic of this particular franchise which has always been billed as classic fantasy (Well, dark fantasy)

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 22 juillet 2010 - 02:31 .

[UberDuber]

Because there are more male gamers than females, alot more ... but there are more female gamers now than there ever was.

[Saibh]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Besides that, we're not entirely sure what the Rivaini count as, in terms of parallel races. I will say that two of the native Orlesians you meet (out of three total) have Asian-looking features. Marjolaine has black hair and pale skin, but her eyes and features look pretty Caucasoid, to me.

so far it seems they're french  

No, they're Orlesian. This game doesn't have French people. In a fantasy setting, you're never going to find Asians from Asia.

DaringMoosejaw wrote...

The guys making these decisions
were put in charge of the marketing department for a reason: It works.
It has nothing to do with sexism. If they really thought throwing the
female protagonist would make more money than the male one, they'd do it
in a HEARTBEAT. They love making money! That's their goddamn job. Take
your problems up with society instead of marketing.

3rd time (I'm keeping a counter): BioWare has had games that feature a female face more predominately than a male face. If you change the skin of the forums to DA Origins, you'll see my point. There's a generic armor-dude on the left, Morrigan on the right.

[Ahisgewaya]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Ahisgewaya wrote...

A medieval Europe with elves, dwarves, and a spirit world no less. 

*Looks up from his copy of the Silmarillion*

Naturally

Okay, but that's my point. There are more setting like this than just the Silmarilion. Why can't we have a setting with African Kings and mythology?

Jade Empire was a HUGE step in the right direction, but I think the fact that it didn't sell very well means they won't be having another one anytime soon.

[Ahisgewaya]

Saibh wrote...

No, they're Orlesian. This game doesn't have French people. In a fantasy setting, you're never going to find Asians from Asia.

And yet Ferelden is supposedly medeival England? yeah....that's not even slightly hypocritical.

Modifié par Ahisgewaya, 22 juillet 2010 - 02:31 .

[Saibh]

Ahisgewaya wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Ahisgewaya wrote...

A medieval Europe with elves, dwarves, and a spirit world no less. 

*Looks up from his copy of the Silmarillion*

Naturally

Okay, but that's my point. There are more setting like this than just the Silmarilion. Why can't we have a setting with African Kings and mythology?

Jade Empire was a HUGE step in the right direction, but I think the fact that it didn't sell very well means they won't be having another one anytime soon.

Why can't we have women featured more predominately in marketing, even though we make up a larger minority that non-whites (given that we're half of that minority)?

[DA Trap Star]

You act like female gamers outnumber male, there are a lot less female gamers. Its called marketing 101, aim toward your target audience who will result in the most sales.

[mopotter]

Saibh wrote...

Can I just point out to all those going "it wouldn't make sense to have a female blatantly being advertised for the game!", that KotOR and DA have a woman predominant as their main face? 

Again, not saying they should change their marketing strategy, I'm just saying that it's not like it's never worked, and you're wrong to think that it hasn't.

I agree  BioWare has had some great covers that did not show the main character. 

JE  great game.  And a great cover one of the male characters, Furious Ming and one of the female, Wu.  
KOTOR great game, great cover.  It didn't have Revan on the cover at all, just Bastila, Darth Malak and images from the game.
NWN has a striking cover.

Actually, I think ME and DA might be the only two that just shows the default male on the cover.  A change in their marketing and not a good change as far as I'm concerned.  

[Monstruo696]

DaringMoosejaw wrote...

 Take your problems up with society instead of marketing.

The following is not directed at DaringMoosejaw:

Or don't take them up at all.

This isn't making you money, ruining your gameplay experience, affecting your life or the life of others.

You are discussing a symbol which represents nothing but the game it's trying to advertise.  Take your cause to somewhere where it matters, like an association that supports females from third world countries less fortunate than yourself if you care that much.

Modifié par Monstruo696, 22 juillet 2010 - 02:32 .

[Saibh]

[quote]Ahisgewaya wrote...

[quote]Saibh wrote...
so far it seems they're french  [/quote]

No, they're Orlesian. This game doesn't have French people. In a fantasy setting, you're never going to find Asians from Asia.
[/quote]

And yet Ferelden is supposedly medeival England? yeah....that's not even slightly hypocritical.
[/quote]

Point being: other ethnicities do exist. If Orlais (and we don't know this) is populated by many Asian people, then Ferelden can be populated by many white people. Again, we know Rivainis have darker skin, but it's yet to be seen if they have African features. It's called a Fantasy Counterpart Culture.

It's not hypocritical.

[Heimdall]

Ahisgewaya wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Ahisgewaya wrote...

A medieval Europe with elves, dwarves, and a spirit world no less. 

*Looks up from his copy of the Silmarillion*

Naturally

Okay, but that's my point. There are more setting like this than just the Silmarilion. Why can't we have a setting with African Kings and mythology?

Jade Empire was a HUGE step in the right direction, but I think the fact that it didn't sell very well means they won't be having another one anytime soon.

You must have added the last bit after I typed.  I edited my initial response.

Also, didn't TLOTR + Silmarillion pretty much invent the modern idea of settings like this?

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 22 juillet 2010 - 02:38 .

[Ahisgewaya]

Saibh wrote...

Ahisgewaya wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Ahisgewaya wrote...

A medieval Europe with elves, dwarves, and a spirit world no less. 

*Looks up from his copy of the Silmarillion*

Naturally

Okay, but that's my point. There are more setting like this than just the Silmarilion. Why can't we have a setting with African Kings and mythology?

Jade Empire was a HUGE step in the right direction, but I think the fact that it didn't sell very well means they won't be having another one anytime soon.

Why can't we have women featured more predominately in marketing, even though we make up a larger minority that non-whites (given that we're half of that minority)?

THat's a very good question that I honestly can't answer. I think there should be more marketing toward women gamers, as I know quite a few women who play video games. Roleplaying video games no less. It seems like a big market to me. But I was just pointing out that at least women exist in ferelden. 

[Lyssistr]

Ahisgewaya wrote...

Sorry, but the JRPG anology doesn't work. Why? Because I rarely ever see anyone with a different skin tone in those games either. Hell, some of the characters are blonde or redheads. You show me one naturally blonde full asian. 

Hair color is totally irrelevant, people dye their hair anyhow and have been doing so since ancient times. I still don't understand though, is your complaint about racial background? I'd guess not because JRPGs also do that. If it is skin color, again I'd be happy to hear that in games referring to modern times & futuristic times, where all colors are equally fit.

 Fantasy games, at least in their current forms are usually set either in medieval Europe-like landscapes or mediaval Asia-like landscapes, in both cases, indeed while these two sub-genres default to different racial backgrounds, they are still of one color, however, isn't that the background of mediaval europe & asia anyhow? why seek a bias where there isn't one.

 I'd be all for a black Shepard or Alpha protocol protagonist because it is as believable a background as any other. In a medieval settings it just isn't though.
 

[Saibh]

Monstruo696 wrote...

The following is not directed at DaringMoosejaw:

Or don't take them up at all.

This isn't making you money, ruining your gameplay experience, affecting your life or the life of others.

You are discussing a symbol which represents nothing but the game it's trying to advertise.  Take your cause to somewhere where it matters, like an association that supports females from third world countries less fortunate than yourself if you care that much.

I'm going to quote myself: "Listen, most girls aren't saying that BioWare is made up of sexist, amoral pigs--they just wish they could see a change, even just a little one. That's not a bad thing to think. You're being represented, we're not. You'd probably feel way differently in our shoes, so don't judge. It's one thing to say "sorry, it's not going to happen" and it's another thing to say "stop bringing it up".

Obviously bringing it up let's the gaming industry know we exist, which is just a little helpful."

mopotter wrote...

I agree  BioWare has had some great covers that did not show the main character. 

JE  great game.  And a great cover one of the male characters, Furious Ming and one of the female, Wu. KOTOR great game, great cover.  It didn't have Revan on the cover at all, just Bastila, Darth Malak and images from the game. NWN has a striking cover.

Actually, I think ME and DA might be the only two that just shows the default male on the cover.  A change in their marketing and not a good change as far as I'm concerned.
 

Actually, DA has Morrigan as their face. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie]

Which, essentially, means it only applies to ME, evidently. And somewhat on JE. It's a matter of marketing a female PC correctly.

Modifié par Saibh, 22 juillet 2010 - 02:41 .

[RosaAquafire]

Monstruo696 wrote...

The following is not directed at DaringMoosejaw:

Or don't take them up at all.

This isn't making you money, ruining your gameplay experience, affecting your life or the life of others.

You are discussing a symbol which represents nothing but the game it's trying to advertise.  Take your cause to somewhere where it matters, like an association that supports females from third world countries less fortunate than yourself if you care that much.

This honestly just makes me ill.

Why do you have to treat us like this? All we're saying is that it sucks being a minority and feeling invisible, and it would be great if we could even get a 25% representation on the side. This DOES matter. This is promoting "male" as "default." If you don't see a problem with that, honestly, that sucks, but it's not my place to tell you that you should.

Just as it's not yours to tell the girls to shut up and stop whining.

We have the right to want to feel represented. We don't neccessarily have the right to get what we want, but we DO have it to vocalize that we feel marginalized and be given ear and respect as a result.

[Clover Rider]

Lyssistr wrote...

Ahisgewaya wrote...

Sorry, but the JRPG anology doesn't work. Why? Because I rarely ever see anyone with a different skin tone in those games either. Hell, some of the characters are blonde or redheads. You show me one naturally blonde full asian. 

Hair color is totally irrelevant, people dye their hair anyhow and have been doing so since ancient times. I still don't understand though, is your complaint about racial background? I'd guess not because JRPGs also do that. If it is skin color, again I'd be happy to hear that in games referring to modern times & futuristic times, where all colors are equally fit.

 Fantasy games, at least in their current forms are usually set either in medieval Europe-like landscapes or mediaval Asia-like landscapes, in both cases, indeed while these two sub-genres default to different racial backgrounds, they are still of one color, however, isn't that the background of mediaval europe & asia anyhow? why seek a bias where there isn't one.

 I'd be all for a black Shepard or Alpha protocol protagonist because it is as believable a background as any other. In a medieval settings it just isn't though.
 

That and not all in JRPGs are asian look at Mr.T in FF7 <_<.

[iTomes]

oh and if anyne asks why there are no blacks in the game (except for the europe part): being black doesn't fall out of the sky. black persons are the result of evolution, as white and asian and every else. thatfore there must be a reason for that evolution. what we saw so far from thedas isn't africa, its geographically pretty much like europe. and if youre searching for a game with african king setting and stuff: guild wars nightfall.

[Saibh]

iTomes wrote...

oh and if anyne asks why there are no blacks in the game (except for the europe part): being black doesn't fall out of the sky. black persons are the result of evolution, as white and asian and every else. thatfore there must be a reason for that evolution. what we saw so far from thedas isn't africa, its geographically pretty much like europe. and if youre searching for a game with african king setting and stuff: guild wars nightfall.

...It seems as if you're saying it's a possibility black people don't exist? Just so you know, everyone was black before we moved to other places and changed pigmentations.

EDIT: To clarify, saying we evolved without black people is like saying we evolved without hands--it stretches the willing suspension of disbelief.

Modifié par Saibh, 22 juillet 2010 - 02:44 .

[Monstruo696]

And if the game doesn't have African or Asian counterpart, will everyone throw a hissy fit about it?

Saibh wrote...

...It seems as if you're saying it's a possibility black people don't exist? Just so you know, everyone was black before we moved to other places and changed pigmentations.

Nonsense, it's obvious we come from the stars, or are the child of a man and a woman expelled from the Garden of Eden, or some other intelligent lifeform left us here.

Oh wait, I wasn't there and couldn't care less.

Modifié par Monstruo696, 22 juillet 2010 - 02:47 .