101 réponses à ce sujet

[Titanium Man]

Let's think about this.  You've picked up an asari justicar, the paladins of the Mass Effect universe.  They're bound by a code which they fiercely live by, if most justicars are like Samara.  They're dedicated to being good-natured, fighting the good fight, ending injustice, that sort of thing.

Now Samara comes up to you and tells you her psycho daughter is running around killing people and needs your help to stop her from doing it some more.  Chances are fairly good, even if you're paranoid, that she's not lying about this - if she's really living by her code, then she has no reason to lie, she really needs to do this.  Even though you barely know this person, you can reasonably assume she is someone you can trust a bit more readily due to the good-guy nature of the justicar.

So here comes Morinith, who fights Samara and goes, "I'm more powerful, take me with you instead!"  Let's see.  Who are you going to trust?  The paladin who has sworn to uphold justice across the universe, who must kill this established murderer in order to prevent more lives from being taken...or the ESTABLISHED MURDERER?  The murderer, which, by the way, you have even LESS proof of her biotic ability than Samara's!  Even from a pure power angle, Renegade Shepard should have no reason to take Morinith instead.  Know what he'd be thinking?  "I don't know how powerful she is.  Besides, she'll probably backstab me."

It just makes no logical sense.  Accuse me of thinking in a limited way if you must, but what kind of mindset do you need to be in to compare a murderer with a good guy and figure, "Yeah, I'll wing it with the killer, should be fine"?

[Titanium Man]

Shandepared wrote...
Paladin? No she's a murderous vigilante. You have the option to recruit Morinth because if Shepard resists her attempt to seduce him he apparently can decide that Morinth is more powerufl and will be more useful to him. That's what Shepard says if you choose her, after all.

Certainly the choice came as a surprise to me though.

What guidelines does Shepard go by to determine this?  He's got no proof.  All he knows is that Morinith has crazy hypno-eyes.  That COULD be a useful ability, but again, this leads back to the "will she backstab me or not" question.  Quite frankly, Renegade Shep has to be a moron if he flies with this without considering it.

[faeriehunter]

Why kill Samara instead of Morinth?

Not every Shepard is a shining paragon. If you do enough things that Samara disapproves of, then when you talk to her on the Normandy she'll tell you that without the constraint of her code she'd have killed you already.

Then Morinth fights Samara into a stalemate, showing they're both equally powerful, and offers to come with you instead of Samara. Who do you choose, the justicar who will kill you as soon her code (of which you know virtually nothing) allows it, or her daughter, who will owe you for getting rid of her nemesis?

Modifié par faeriehunter, 22 juillet 2010 - 01:40 .

[Matdeception]

Shandepared wrote...

Titanium Man wrote...

Let's think about this.  You've picked up an asari justicar, the paladins of the Mass Effect universe.

Paladin? No she's a murderous vigilante. You have the option to recruit Morinth because if Shepard resists her attempt to seduce him he apparently can decide that Morinth is more powerufl and will be more useful to him. That's what Shepard says if you choose her, after all.

Certainly the choice came as a surprise to me though.

I just had to comment on this. Samara IS a Paladin. If anyone truly believes Paladins are these Mary Sue incarnations of good and righteousness, then they really need to re-think their viewpoint.

A Paladin can slaughter an entire village, women and children and eldery and the ****ing animals, if he believes (Truthfully or not) that doing so will be for the betterment of his faith, mankind, his lord, ect. ect.

Hell he could even do it out of spite - Nothing says a Paladin can't just whole sale slaughter a race while smoking a cigar and banging the queen. If anyone ever questions him, he can just say "GOD WILLS IT!"

Seriously. Paladins can be as twisted as any serial killer. The only difference is they are sanctified by either religion, or whatever passes for the Law. They are more often then not still heartless butcherers.

[instantdeath999]

faeriehunter wrote...

Why kill Samara instead of Morinth?

Not every Shepard is a shining paragon. If you do enough things that Samara disapproves of, then when you talk to her on the Normandy she'll tell you that without the constraint of her code she'd have killed you already.

Then Morinth fights Samara into a stalemate, showing they're both equally powerful, and offers to come with you instead of Samara. Who do you choose, the justicar who will kill you as soon her code (of which you know virtually nothing) allows it, or her daughter, who will owe you for getting rid of her nemesis?

This is probably as good of an answer as you will get.  It has me convinced

[mosor]

instantdeath999 wrote...

faeriehunter wrote...

Why kill Samara instead of Morinth?

Not every Shepard is a shining paragon. If you do enough things that Samara disapproves of, then when you talk to her on the Normandy she'll tell you that without the constraint of her code she'd have killed you already.

Then Morinth fights Samara into a stalemate, showing they're both equally powerful, and offers to come with you instead of Samara. Who do you choose, the justicar who will kill you as soon her code (of which you know virtually nothing) allows it, or her daughter, who will owe you for getting rid of her nemesis?

This is probably as good of an answer as you will get.  It has me convinced

Sadly, you can max your renegade simply by chosing renegade dialogue and being rutless on armed criminals. You can be a shining paragon to the innocent, chose to save lives rather than go after a criminal, and Samara will still want to kill you for no other reason than you have a gruff personality.

[Titanium Man]

mosor wrote...

instantdeath999 wrote...

faeriehunter wrote...

Why kill Samara instead of Morinth?

Not every Shepard is a shining paragon. If you do enough things that Samara disapproves of, then when you talk to her on the Normandy she'll tell you that without the constraint of her code she'd have killed you already.

Then Morinth fights Samara into a stalemate, showing they're both equally powerful, and offers to come with you instead of Samara. Who do you choose, the justicar who will kill you as soon her code (of which you know virtually nothing) allows it, or her daughter, who will owe you for getting rid of her nemesis?

This is probably as good of an answer as you will get.  It has me convinced

Sadly, you can max your renegade simply by chosing renegade dialogue and being rutless on armed criminals. You can be a shining paragon to the innocent, chose to save lives rather than go after a criminal, and Samara will still want to kill you for no other reason than you have a gruff personality.

That's how my Shep was designed as well.  But hell, at least Samara has things that indicate she's one of the good guys.  Though the question of "doing it in the name of the code and not because of my personal belief" does apply.  Still, Morinth is still a worse choice considering how she actively kills people and gets a kick out of it.  Samara doesn't have that bloodlust or desire for control like Morinth does.

[mosor]

Titanium Man wrote...

mosor wrote...

instantdeath999 wrote...

faeriehunter wrote...

Why kill Samara instead of Morinth?

Not every Shepard is a shining paragon. If you do enough things that Samara disapproves of, then when you talk to her on the Normandy she'll tell you that without the constraint of her code she'd have killed you already.

Then Morinth fights Samara into a stalemate, showing they're both equally powerful, and offers to come with you instead of Samara. Who do you choose, the justicar who will kill you as soon her code (of which you know virtually nothing) allows it, or her daughter, who will owe you for getting rid of her nemesis?

This is probably as good of an answer as you will get.  It has me convinced

Sadly, you can max your renegade simply by chosing renegade dialogue and being rutless on armed criminals. You can be a shining paragon to the innocent, chose to save lives rather than go after a criminal, and Samara will still want to kill you for no other reason than you have a gruff personality.

That's how my Shep was designed as well.  But hell, at least Samara has things that indicate she's one of the good guys.  Though the question of "doing it in the name of the code and not because of my personal belief" does apply.  Still, Morinth is still a worse choice considering how she actively kills people and gets a kick out of it.  Samara doesn't have that bloodlust or desire for control like Morinth does.

Well no one will argue that Morinth is a good person. I personally don't like her much either. However, Renegade Shep is nothing if not pragmatic. He makes hard choices. Sometimes those choices involve sacrificing an innocent if it leads to the greater good. He needs to have a crew that he can count on to support those choices, and not interfeare with him, let alone try to kill him later for making those calls.

While Samara's code appears to prevent her interfearing for the moment. When does that code expire? Do we have to worry about a crazy justicar attacking you on sight if you cross paths with her? What if her oath expires after the collector base events and you cross paths with her in ME3? What if in ME3 you cross paths with her at a critical time when you have little time to stop a reaper plan?

Is morinth a psychopath? Yeah. Does she like killing? Yeah. So do Jack and Zaeed. She'll have plenty of opportunity to kill on your behalf. Do you have to worry that she will ambush you in the future? No.

[LorDC]

Titanium Man wrote...
The paladin who has sworn to uphold justice across the universe, who must kill this established murderer in order to prevent more lives from being taken...or the ESTABLISHED MURDERER?

You say "ESTABLISHED MURDERER" as it is something bad. I don't understand why?

[Markinator_123]

How many renegade points do you need for her to tell you that she will attack you if she sees you after the oath is dissolved? Or is just if you have more renegade points than paragon?

[mosor]

Markinator_123 wrote...

How many renegade points do you need for her to tell you that she will attack you if she sees you after the oath is dissolved? Or is just if you have more renegade points than paragon?

I had her say that once when I had 3/4 of renegade, but a bar less paragon. I can't say for sure. Most times I do her loyalty my renegade is pretty much maxed.

[didymos1120]

Why? Other than the "Samara wants to kill me thing" there really is no reason, and even that's kinda sketchy. Since Morinth is truly psychopathic in the clinical sense, and also a sexually-motivated serial murderer, the fact that she "owes you" means jack. Just go talk to her: she immediately starts feeding you a line about how you're "special" and could probably survive one of her death-nookie sessions. Guess what? You're not quite special enough. At least with Samara, you know full well that she'll try to kill you, since she helpfully tells you. You even know when: as soon as the mission is complete (the post-game doesn't count. She only sticks around as a gameplay concession)



Really, she's just there for the lulz factor and her quasi-hidden bonus power. Even full Paragons have the opportunity to murder Samara.

[Dave of Canada]

Honestly, I found the entire Morinth vs Samara choice to not be Renegade vs Paragon - it felt more like it was Dark Side vs Light Side.



As a Renegade, I hunt terrorists and killers. Why would I allow one who can brainwash entire colonies and hunt down innocent people to walk free? My Renegade is ruthless but even this is absurd.

[Alpha-Centuri]

If you think about it from a renegade perspective, you can kill two birds with one stone. Kill Samara, alleviating a future threat. Then, during the suicide mission, kill Morinth, a known psychopath who will kill anyone for sex. Win-Win

[Siansonea]

Shandepared wrote...

Titanium Man wrote...

Let's think about this.  You've picked up an asari justicar, the paladins of the Mass Effect universe.

Paladin? No she's a murderous vigilante. You have the option to recruit Morinth because if Shepard resists her attempt to seduce him he apparently can decide that Morinth is more powerufl and will be more useful to him. That's what Shepard says if you choose her, after all.

Certainly the choice came as a surprise to me though.

Oh look, it's Shandy's "Asari Are The Scourge Of The Galaxy" routine. This is always entertaining.

Basically BioWare knows that a subset of the fanbase thinks that 'Badass Renegade' = 'Dangerous Sociopath', thus the option to choose Morinth over Samara. It really is that simple.

[Siansonea]

LorDC wrote...

Titanium Man wrote...
The paladin who has sworn to uphold justice across the universe, who must kill this established murderer in order to prevent more lives from being taken...or the ESTABLISHED MURDERER?

You say "ESTABLISHED MURDERER" as it is something bad. I don't understand why?

Aww, baby psychopaths are sooooo cute!!!

<_<

[redhaudiof]

There is a very serious and valid ethical question to go along with Samara vs Morinth that has not been mentioned yet. What Morinth desires (besides satisfying her addiction) is freedom: she was forced at an extremely young age (even for humans) to go on the run. Why? Because of the laws of her people. I'll bet many in our society would have viewed this as unjust: it's *like* banning a person to eternal solitude for being born with superhuman strength. How is it fair to Morinth? She hadn't even committed a crime but was forced to choose between death, living on the run for the rest of her life with a violent end, or eternal confinement and loneliness. She chose to rebel, and I don't blame her for that.



Now obviously Morinth is a vicious psychopath who kills for fun and her own pleasure, but that is why she had to die (at least according to Samara). NOT because she was born with her "ability." Samara vs. Morinth is actually extremely well-written: it's the ultimate choice of THE LAW vs ANARCHY. Samara must live her life bound by STRICT and ABSOLUTE codes, with no room for questions or even her own decisions (in a way it's own type of eternal imprisonment). Morinth was trying to escape that very state. Morinth is an anarchist and hedonist at its most extreme, but she is FREE!



So I think that viewing the situation from this angle makes it much more clear why a Renegade Shepard, or even a Paragon Shepard who values the rights of the individual over the rights of the many (even though that's a much flimsier argument), would choose Morinth. Morinth IS a renegade from what many would perceive as unjust asari law, and a Shepard could most definitely relate to her plight.



Other points to consider:

*A renegade Shep and Samara do not get along.

*You already have one vicious psychopath aboard who loves to kill for fun in Jack, why not add another?

*Killing a few hundred or even a few thousand people probably doesn't seem like a huge deal to a renegade Shepard. Obviously the circumstances are different, Shepard has a job to do and Morinth...does not, but I'm sure Shepard has passed the century mark on people killed quite a few times over at this point.

*If Morinth poses a problem on the ship, ya just kill her.

[Dave of Canada]

Alpha-Centuri wrote...

If you think about it from a renegade perspective, you can kill two birds with one stone. Kill Samara, alleviating a future threat. Then, during the suicide mission, kill Morinth, a known psychopath who will kill anyone for sex. Win-Win

Samara can also be killed on the Suicide Mission.

[TheScientist]

I think the "reason" was there - Morinth said it - but it needed some reinforcement. Because of Morinth's condition she supposedly gained strength with each kill, so I imagine she was supposed to be stronger than Samara by a mile and far more useful for a suicide mission. Aside from the fact that she's not stronger in gameplay and she seemed an even match against her mother until you decide who to kill, she did still say "I'm stronger than my mother!" when she was begging you to pick her.

[Alpha-Centuri]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Alpha-Centuri wrote...

If you think about it from a renegade perspective, you can kill two birds with one stone. Kill Samara, alleviating a future threat. Then, during the suicide mission, kill Morinth, a known psychopath who will kill anyone for sex. Win-Win

Samara can also be killed on the Suicide Mission.

Sure. But you won't have the option of dominate all the way up until that point. I'm offering a way to rationalize it. The OP claimed that it had no logical sense. You use Morinth's talents if they fit Shepherd better than Samara's, and ditch her at the end.

[Simpfan]

Obviously Morinth can sex the reapers to death, so way better option.

[TheScientist]

Simpfan wrote...

Obviously Morinth can sex the reapers to death, so way better option.

I've been saying that from day one, heh. No, seriously, Morinth could probably destroy the Reaper's minds.