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[tmk]

Christmas Ape wrote...
- The asari are natural biotics with a nervous system capable of linking with that of another species, a capability enhanced and altered by the ardat-yakshi mutation.
- The derelict Reaper, whose only operational component is the mass effect core, caused indoctrination-like effects in the Cerberus research team.

- The asari link nervous systems through skin contact, not mass effect fields. In fact their strong biotics are a side-effect of that ability. At least if Codex is to be believed (its articles do tend to have nothing to do with how stuff actually works in-game).
- Even if we accept the theory of mind-control through mass effect fields - it takes a Reaper several days to indoctrinate a person into full submission, with the effect being degenerative and irreversible. Morinth's Dominate is instant, temporary - and she certainly doesn't have a huge mass-effect core within her.

[Nightwriter]

tmk wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
Paragon Shepard has no reason to pick Morinth.

Well, to play devil's advocate here... for starters, she's being oppressed for something that's not her fault. She can manipulate her victims, but from what I understand, they have to more or less want to submit - i.e. she can't just force mind control you (except when she uses Dominate, but I suspect that's just a game mechanic - because frankly the ability makes no sense and essentially contradicts ME lore). She claims that her victims experience heavenly extasy right before they die (though I think she only says that after you save her). She apparently not just kills, but also absorbs the victim's personality.

I suppose a crazy enough Paragon with inclination towards mysticism, fatalism, and similar fancy words could see Morinth as a tragic and misunderstood character. I wouldn't even be surprised if in ME3 there's a path to Paragon-redeem her. It's all kinda flaky but, well, it's a possibility.

She got a whole village of people to worship her. Thinking they didn't all do so voluntarily. Talk about batting a thousand.

In other words, I consider her brainwashing as a form of forcing them into it.

She's killed people. I don't know how paragon Shepard could let her live after talking to Nef's mother. She chose this lifestyle. It was her decision. Her sisters made different decisions. Like Samara said, she's a tragic figure, but not a sympathetic one.

[Christmas Ape]

tmk wrote...
- The asari link nervous systems through skin contact, not mass effect fields. In fact their strong biotics are a side-effect of that ability. At least if Codex is to be believed (its articles do tend to have nothing to do with how stuff actually works in-game).

To my recollection neither Liara nor Shiala make physical contact with Shepard, yet can treat her mind like a filing cabinet.

- Even if we accept the theory of mind-control through mass effect fields - it takes a Reaper several days to indoctrinate a person into full submission, with the effect being degenerative and irreversible. Morinth's Dominate is instant, temporary - and she certainly doesn't have a huge mass-effect core within her.

I am presuming a certain amount of unanticipated side-effects of the ardat-yakshi mutation. Each person Morinth death-humps, if we're to take people at their word, makes her stronger, and she's been doing it for 400 years.
Morinth's Dominate is short-term and appears to be primarily a confused, suggestible state if we're to take Shepard's experience as typical; where indoctrination is described as a 'reprogramming', Dominate looks more like a short circuit - and I'm not sure she cares if it's degenerative and irreversible, she does mean to death-hump you afterwards after all.
It's also an active process as compared to the derelict Reaper.

I'm not saying it's certainly the case, but there's a hypothesis I feel stands up to the sniff test. The knock-on effects of ardat-yakshi mutation are poorly addressed.

Modifié par Christmas Ape, 24 juillet 2010 - 10:15 .

[tmk]

Nightwriter wrote...
She got a whole village of people to worship her. Thinking they didn't all do so voluntarily. Talk about batting a thousand.

In other words, I consider her brainwashing as a form of forcing them into it.

I doubt she could forcibly brainwash an entire village. Also, strictly speaking, we only hear about this from Samara.

Nightwriter wrote...
She's killed people. I don't know how paragon Shepard could let her live after talking to Nef's mother. She chose this lifestyle. It was her decision. Her sisters made different decisions. Like Samara said, she's a tragic figure, but not a sympathetic one.

Samara herself admitted to killing a bunch of people in her wild maiden days, and she doesn't even appear to regret it. Frankly, it almost seems like a normal and expected behavior for young asari. Maybe it's their way to deal with krogan-style overpopulation, I don't know...

Nef... On one hand, yes, it's quite heartbreaking to talk to her mother and listen to her diary. On the other... to be honest, I'm far from convinced she'd live a full and happy life and not deteriorate and take her own life herself a few years later. She may have been the best daughter her mother could want, but I'm getting a feeling that her life was really rather miserable. Morinth, ironically, was the brightest part of her brief existence. She said herself she doesn't care what happens in Morinth's apartment, as long as she remains with Morinth forever, and in a perverse way her wish is actually granted - according to Liara, after the asari union a part of the their partner lives on in them. It could be called a bittersweet ending in an adolescent emo-romantic kind of way.

Again, I'm not saying I endorse this way of thinking myself, but I could see a character that could, and I don't think it's exactly renegade.

[AntiChri5]

This thread again?



Said it before, i will say it again, there is no justification (outside of suicidal impulses) for sparing Morinth.

[Nightwriter]

Oh great. Now we're having the asari sex/melding powers discussion again.

If the lore can't get it straight, how can we?

When the Codex talks about this it's like it's getting high and slowly realizing it has no idea what it's talking about.

"The asari are an all-female race... they're... no... they're asexual, mono-gendered... I... uhh... *giggle*... they reproduce by linking immune systems! Intimate contact may or may not occur... no, it... I mean they have to link nervous systems through skin contact... wait... but intimate contact isn't necessary for reproduction... if... *snorts, giggles*... I... I don't know what I'm talking about, lol... what am I saying... I don't know... omg... *giggle*... I'm so f*ing high right now..."

[tmk]

Christmas Ape wrote...
To my recollection neither Liara nor Shiala make physical contact with Shepard, yet can treat her mind like a filing cabinet.

As far as I recall, both reach out and touch your face with a hand. I don't have a screenshot though.

Christmas Ape wrote...
I am presuming a certain amount of unanticipated side-effects of the ardat-yakshi mutation. Each person Morinth death-humps, if we're to take people at their word, makes her stronger, and she's been doing it for 400 years.

My understanding is, she becomes "stronger" because she becomes more experienced. I don't think killing someone just directly amps her abilities up a notch, and I can't imagine how that would work. Of course I may be thinking about this more than Bioware themselves.

Christmas Ape wrote...

Morinth's Dominate is short-term and appears to be primarily a confused, suggestible state if we're to take Shepard's experience as typical; where indoctrination is described as a 'reprogramming', Dominate looks more like a short circuit - and I'm not sure she cares if it's degenerative and irreversible, she does mean to death-hump you afterwards after all.
It's also an active process as compared to the derelict Reaper.

Sovereign's indoctrination wasn't any faster. And even if she "Dominates" you in her apartment, there's no apparent brain damage to Shepard (which there logically should be, since short-circuit is much less gentle than reprogramming).

Christmas Ape wrote...
I'm not saying it's certainly the case, but there's a hypothesis I feel stands up to the sniff test. The knock-on effects of ardat-yakshi mutation are poorly addressed.

Well, my arguments against it are certainly nitpicky enough that they can be discarded if Bioware decide that's how they want to play it. So don't give them ideas 

Nightwriter wrote...
When the Codex talks about this it's like it's getting high and slowly realizing it has no idea what it's talking about.

Great, now I'm giggling high myself 

Modifié par tmk, 24 juillet 2010 - 10:43 .

[Nightwriter]

tmk wrote...

I doubt she could forcibly brainwash an entire village. Also, strictly speaking, we only hear about this from Samara.

Samara is the picture of truth and honesty!!! Her word is her bond!!! She is a justicar!!! Asari Jedi!!!

Plus she obviously did somehow enthrall the whole village. Hypno-eyes. All I'm saying.

tmk wrote...

Samara herself admitted to killing a bunch of people in her wild maiden days, and she doesn't even appear to regret it. Frankly, it almost seems like a normal and expected behavior for young asari. Maybe it's their way to deal with krogan-style overpopulation, I don't know...

Nef... On one hand, yes, it's quite heartbreaking to talk to her mother and listen to her diary. On the other... to be honest, I'm far from convinced she'd live a full and happy life and not deteriorate and take her own life herself a few years later. She may have been the best daughter her mother could want, but I'm getting a feeling that her life was really rather miserable. Morinth, ironically, was the brightest part of her brief existence. She said herself she doesn't care what happens in Morinth's apartment, as long as she remains with Morinth forever, and in a perverse way her wish is actually granted - according to Liara, after the asari union a part of the their partner lives on in them. It could be called a bittersweet ending in an adolescent emo-romantic kind of way.

Again, I'm not saying I endorse this way of thinking myself, but I could see a character that could, and I don't think it's exactly renegade.

Well, I never said Samara was perfect, just way better than Morinth. I really have objections to some of her beliefs and her adherence to this Code.

And wtf, tmk. It's okay to kill Nef because she would've killed herself anyway?

Ain't no justifying killing Nef. She was all her mother had. I mean you can't just end a life before it's time and say nothing would've come of the time you've just stolen. She was brilliant, she had something to offer the world from what I saw, and she meant the world to somebody. That's enough to make murder wrong in my book, no matter which way you slice it.

[Barquiel]

I only selected Morinth in one playthrough. It doesn't make sense to help her (imo), but I was curious. She is an interesting character.

Samara vs renegade Shep is just lazy writing.
I doubt it violates the code if Shep intimidates some shopkeepers or headbutts a Krogan.
But a paragon Shep who kills Zaeed's workers (it's probably against the code, they are innocent)...no problem, Shep and Samara are best friends

Modifié par Barquiel, 24 juillet 2010 - 10:56 .

[Christmas Ape]

tmk wrote...
As far as I recall, both reach out and touch your face with a hand. I don't have a screenshot though.

I feel equally certain that at least once Liara doesn't, but I likewise have no screenshots to pull from.

My understanding is, she becomes "stronger" because she becomes more experienced. I don't think killing someone just directly amps her abilities up a notch, and I can't imagine how that would work. Of course I may be thinking about this more than Bioware themselves.

Despite a six hundred year gap in experience, Morinth fights her mother to a standstill. It's likely a bit of both.

Sovereign's indoctrination wasn't any faster.

Sovereign was playing the long con with Saren, letting him think he was still making his own decisions. The salarians captured later received higher 'signal strength' and were reduced to mindless shells in fractions of the time. There appears to be a whole spectrum of indoctrination.

And even if she "Dominates" you in her apartment, there's no apparent brain damage to Shepard (which there logically should be, since short-circuit is much less gentle than reprogramming).

Likewise the Prothean Beacons, which Liara insists would have destroyed "lesser minds". Shepard possesses, by canon, an unusual resilience.

Well, my arguments against it are certainly nitpicky enough that they can be discarded if Bioware decide that's how they want to play it. So don't give them ideas 

Are you kidding? Half the reason I'm here is hoping to catch something I considered, inferred, or otherwise added to the background canon in ME3.

Modifié par Christmas Ape, 24 juillet 2010 - 10:57 .

[tmk]

Nightwriter wrote...
And wtf, tmk. It's okay to kill Nef because she would've killed herself anyway? 

Ain't no justifying killing Nef. She was all her mother had. I mean you can't just end a life before it's time and say nothing would've come of the time you've just stolen. She was brilliant, she had something to offer the world from what I saw, and she meant the world to somebody. That's enough to make murder wrong in my book, no matter which way you slice it.

I'm not saying it's ok to kill her. I just can't help thinking that even what Morinth did was, in a way, better for her than what she had otherwise (which is likely a huge part of the reason she fell under Morinth's influence in the first place). I'm certainly not saying Morinth did the objectively best possible thing for her either, but again, she may have believed she did.

I guess it's getting into those philosophical questions about life that burns half as long, and whether it's better for a person to be happy or to make others around her happy.

Modifié par tmk, 24 juillet 2010 - 11:12 .

[wulf3n]

Christmas Ape wrote...

tmk wrote...
As far as I recall, both reach out and touch your face with a hand. I don't have a screenshot though.

I feel equally certain that at least once Liara doesn't, but I likewise have no screenshots to pull from.

My understanding is, she becomes "stronger" because she becomes more experienced. I don't think killing someone just directly amps her abilities up a notch, and I can't imagine how that would work. Of course I may be thinking about this more than Bioware themselves.

Not quite conclusive proof but does mention, exchanging electrical impulses through skin, implying some form of contact.

Asari

[tmk]

Christmas Ape wrote...Despite a six hundred year gap in experience, Morinth fights her mother to a standstill. It's likely a bit of both.

There's a thing called "soft level cap" 

Christmas Ape wrote...
Sovereign was playing the long con with Saren, letting him think he was still making his own decisions. The salarians captured later received higher 'signal strength' and were reduced to mindless shells in fractions of the time. There appears to be a whole spectrum of indoctrination.

Not sure about fraction of the time. The captured salarian says he's been captured a few days ago iirc. I also think Sovereign was manipulating Saren indirectly not indoctrinating him, otherwise it wouldn't need to implant him, but that's somewhat besides the point.

Christmas Ape wrote...
Likewise the Prothean Beacons, which Liara insists would have destroyed "lesser minds". Shepard possesses, by canon, an unusual resilience.

My impression was that Liara referred to visions themselves, not the way the Beacons operate.

[Christmas Ape]

tmk wrote...

There's a thing called "soft level cap"

Not to Samara and Morinth there isn't, that's a gameplay conceit we experience.

Not sure about fraction of the time. The captured salarian says he's been captured a few days ago iirc.

Sadly, given the amorphous time used in ME1, we really have no way to assess it for certain, save that I can't imagine the mindless salarians would have survived long. Saren strikes me as the type to just wait for them to die.

I also think Sovereign was manipulating Saren indirectly not indoctrinating him, otherwise it wouldn't need to implant him, but that's somewhat besides the point.

It appeared to me to be both, and the implantation comes up in the final stages of the plan, either to reinforce his control because of Shepard's influence or to prepare to continue to control him as a mouthpiece during the monumental horror that will be the Reaper culling; "Don't be alarmed, this is for all our sakes," etc. But I admit I am speculating on the implantation purposes if you don't talk him down a little at Virmire.

My impression was that Liara referred to visions themselves, not the way the Beacons operate.

To which all I can say is the visions didn't lift Shepard a couple feet off the ground and then explode. I dispute your impression with my own equally subjective one.

[tmk]

Christmas Ape wrote...

tmk wrote...
There's a thing called "soft level cap"

Not to Samara and Morinth there isn't, that's a gameplay conceit we experience.

Yea, but you can only study something specific for so many centuries before you pretty much know it all. Also, for what it's worth, Morinth is at least a couple centuries younger than Samara.

Christmas Ape wrote...
Sadly, given the amorphous time used in ME1, we really have no way to assess it for certain, save that I can't imagine the mindless salarians would have survived long. Saren strikes me as the type to just wait for them to die.

Well, he doesn't strike me as a type just want them to die. They were his test subjects, and as such are useful until nothing more can be learned from them.

Christmas Ape wrote...
I dispute your impression with my own equally subjective one.

Can I use that as my signature?

Modifié par tmk, 24 juillet 2010 - 11:30 .

[Nightwriter]

tmk wrote...

I'm not saying it's ok to kill her. I just can't help thinking that even what Morinth did was, in a way, better for her than what she had otherwise (which is likely a huge part of the reason she fell under Morinth's influence in the first place). I'm certainly not saying Morinth did the objectively best possible thing for her either, but again, she may have believed she did.

I guess it's getting into those philosophical questions about life that burns half as long, and whether it's better for a person to be happy or to make others around her happy.

But it's like saying anyone who is reclusive or lacking in social skills is probably okay to kill. The ability to enjoy life has nothing to do with the right to live.

Nef deserved to live for herself. I see Nef as the templar in the Circle of Magi and Morinth as the desire demon. What Morinth was giving her was a lie, and the relationship was parasitic in nature, wrong in every way. Nef's  happiness was false, a trick, a lure, and no amount of false happiness can justify taking someone's life away. Life is sacred. To say that Nef probably would've had a crappy life anyway is an assumption you just can't make.

[Anezay]

1: There is no real reason to have Samara on your ship in the first place. From what Shepard knows, there are dudes that take a ship and put people on it before flying away. Even if you say that he would need soldiers for his ground team, he's good for soldiers by that point. He's got his Cerberus issued buddies, his murderous doctor (recruited to stop swarms), his uber krogan (recruited in lieu of a krogan doctor with experience with collectors), and his old turian sniper and quarian engineer friends (recruited to try to recover as much of the old team as possible). Recruiting the others at that point just has no damn point, other than to complete your pokedex. Because you don't have blue version, you have to trade your Samara for a Morinth, you psychotic completionist.

2: If you play renegade, Samara wants to kill you. Unless you are a moron, Morinth won't be able to kill you. If she kills a member of your crew, she knows that you know it was her. She knows that you are very, very good at killing people. She's not stupid.

3: Morinth evaded Samara for 400 years. This is about five human lifetimes. In a one on one chase, once you've managed to evade your pursuer for four centuries, you've freaking won. You are better.

4: Samara kind of stands out. Morinth is an expert at infiltration by this point. That is useful.

5: Dominate is awesome.

6: Morinth takes her time seducing her victims one at a time. Samara walks into a room and paints the walls purple with asari criminal blood as a matter of habit. Samara is obligated to kill for crimes as minor as bribery. You may be preserving more lives with Morinth than Samara.

7: Samara is really freaking boring. And annoying. Morinth is at least slightly more tolerable.

8: Freedom, or something like that.

9: If you exposed Morinth, she's screwed. If she steps out of line, you can just tell some asari authorities that she killed her mom and impersonated her while you weren't looking. If she says that you were there, who are they going to trust? A desperate super criminal about to lose everything, or a spectre?

10: In the words of Vegeta in dbz abridged: "I'M F**KING EVIL!!!"

[tmk]

Nightwriter wrote...
But it's like saying anyone who is reclusive or lacking in social skills is probably okay to kill. The ability to enjoy life has nothing to do with the right to live.

Morinth doesn't exactly just kill. So it's slightly more complicated.

Nightwriter wrote...
Nef deserved to live for herself. I see Nef as the templar in the Circle of Magi and Morinth as the desire demon. What Morinth was giving her was a lie, and the relationship was parasitic in nature, wrong in every way. Nef's  happiness was false, a trick, a lure, and no amount of false happiness can justify taking someone's life away. Life is sacred. To say that Nef probably would've had a crappy life anyway is an assumption you just can't make.

I'm afraid I have no idea what a templar in the Circle of Magi is, so that was over my head. But I believe it's quite possible to experience genuine happiness while being lied to (and in fact it's can be much harder to experience while not being lied to), and to someone a short life of pleasure might seem preferable to a long life of suffering.

I'm not trying to convince you that Morinth is right, I'm just trying to show a possible viewpoint of a character that can side with Morinth while not being 100% evil renegade. I'm doing this because the game seems to have an option of "paragon attitude" towards Morinth, and I'm just trying to imagine what kind of character could possibly use that option, and that's the only thing I can come up with. And yes, I suppose it does require some brainwarping to see it that way.

[Christmas Ape]

tmk wrote...
Yea, but you can only study something specific for so many centuries before you pretty much know it all.

That's... a hard call to make when it comes to "creating mass effect fields with your nervous system".

Also, for what it's worth, Morinth is at least a couple centuries younger than Samara.

That was part of my earlier point. Despite the age difference, they're largely on par, and while Samara has hardly been slacking off in her personal training Morinth seems to be pretty much living a free-wheeling, death-humping lifestyle.

Well, he doesn't strike me as a type just want them to die. They were his test subjects, and as such are useful until nothing more can be learned from them.

I don't see 'get another salarian' as outside the orders he might give, particularly as Sovereign imposes his will over Saren's. We may simply differ on what he intended for the mindless subjects.

Christmas Ape wrote...
I dispute your impression with my own equally subjective one.

Can I use that as my signature?

Go nuts. :happy:

[AntiChri5]

@tmk: Where do you get the impression that Nef's life was horrible and she had no future? Her mother mentions that a gallery offered a fortune for one of her pieces.

[Mirlam]

Well, you COULD think that if you were a renegade Shepard, it would be possible that after all reaper-stuff Samara will have to try to kill you if you run into her somewhere, she even says that herself. (You've done some bad things.. Just think about Zaeed's loyalty mission as a renegade)



So, if you don't care about all the people Morinth is gonna kill (again, sounds like a renegade) it's SORTA safer for you to take her in the long run. Well, Morinth will still want to seduce you to melt your brains...but you'll just have to refuse, and morinth probably knows it's for her best interest not to attack you. (sorry if this was said before, didn't have the patience to read all posts since I'm such a lazy-butt)



Personally, I still took Samara and killed Morinth even though I play a renegade Shepard. It still feels more logical to me. And, besides, it would be cool if Shepard and Samara would end up in a epic battle like "I'm still your friend, and I respect you, but we'll have to fight until one of us is dead."

[Spartas Husky]

Dont know why Morinth was as a "squad" mate in the game, she doesn't have any dialogue almost in the game, except for... I think krogan homeworld duno.... seemed like a last ditch effort to fillt he game with something.



Is like having a Samurai swear alligeance to you, and all of the sudden you come up toa rapist/genocidal maniac/butcher with just the same skills in the sword... and the criminal tlls you to take hhim/her instead of the already sworn samurai.... just dumb, duno why Bioware did it, aside from.... "crap, something quick, anything to fill the asari loyalty quest.... I am bored, and I got a golf game in an hour, just ideas, no brain storming come on anyone....



sir....she meets a daughter who is crazy....



ok good wrap it up sell it"

[AntiChri5]

Cut content.



Way i hear it, she was originally a full companion with her own lines everywhere, but that fell through.

[Titanium Man]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Cut content.

Way i hear it, she was originally a full companion with her own lines everywhere, but that fell through.

Now that might've been more interesting!

[Count Viceroy]

Titanium Man wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

Cut content.

Way i hear it, she was originally a full companion with her own lines everywhere, but that fell through.

Now that might've been more interesting!

That all sounds like content you'd see after you'd made the decision. That's a bit irrelevant tbh. Everything you're presented with before and up to the actual choice suggests that killing samara is retarded so I don't think it would have mattered.